obviously not all females are female thus?

I understand biology. You are familiar with things like heart transplants? Well consider a brain transplant. If your brain was transplanted into my body then you would wake up in my body. Do you understand that?

I think you do actually have a problem there with understanding what I am and how that feels - thus you try to make me believe that you know better. As do others who try to dictate to me that a male who - feels - he is a woman does feel what I do.
That is ridicules and very highly offensive to me.
So now I have - as you show no respect towards me being the women I am - reached the point when I have had enough of this sort of offense.

Try saying that to my gay friends - ah but you know you could just as well change your brains and then you would want to have sex with women.
... never heard anything so offensive.

As do others who try to dictate to me that a male who - feels - he is a woman does feel what I do — Iris0

You'd have a similar right to take the same offense if a woman told you she knows how you feel just because she too is a woman.

That you limit your offense to only when transsexuals say it is your right as well.

None of this is terribly rational or significant to this discussion, but I suppose you have the right to be you.

why do some - SOME - gay men act in ways a normal woman would never ever act?
I do not know... it looks exaggerated and utterly silly to me. And our behavior is something we can control - so if they are not out of control they must act it and play it. — Iris0

I suggest you tell these homosexual men you know who act effeminately that they look exaggerated and silly, and that you think they are deliberately acting this way. This is what I think they will tell you: They remember acting this way since early childhood, they believe they were born this way and have no control over these behaviors , and they are insulted and hurt that you think this is just a performance. This is what I think you don’t understand: masculinity, femininity and sexual attraction are strongly influenced by brain organization. You think you are attracted to men because you have a vagina, but your physical sexual parts have nothing to do with it. You are attracted to men in large part because of brain factors that you cannot control and were present from the moment you were born. These gender-related brain factors invoke much more than just who you are sexually attracted to , they shape the way you perceive your world , the way you walk and talk , you affective style.
If one were to alter this brain structuring in you while you slept, you would wake up astonished at how many of the things about you you thought you had complete control over were actually inborn.

our brains evolved into different sexes — Iris0

But our species shares a gene pool.

gender-related brain factors — Joshs

Shirley, philosophers should be dismantling cultural myths, not mantling them, or encouraging psychiatrists to mantle them.

Late-comer to the discussion. But a question: most of us here - most everyone everywhere - have a pretty clear picture of who and what they are in terms of their own self-image as sexual beings. But how do you know, and by what criteria exactly do you know?

Not asking what you are, or even what you think you are, but instead in terms of any knowledge you claim to have about yourself, on what is that knowledge based? And on closer look, is it really knowledge?

Shirley, philosophers should be dismantling cultural myths, not mantling them, or encouraging psychiatrists to mantle them. — bongo fury

There are nothing but myths. To dismantle one is to erect another. Sometimes , for the purposes of certain discussions, it can be useful to offer an alternative myth to a particularly play-out one, even if the alternative being offered is not one’s own preferred myth. Translation: in engaging with someone who has no concept of psychological gender and its infinite possible varieties, it may be more productive to offer as alternative the concept of brain wired gender. Why? Because this particular myth presents the idea, absolutely foreign to the traditionalist about gender , that gender is a rich web of perceptual , cognitive and affective style of interaction and behavior rather than physical body parts.
Putting it in the form of ‘brain wiring’ is more likely to connect with traditionalistic ideas of gender as physical parts than leaping ahead to the more challenging postmodern myth.

I'm quite interested in what the root arguments are about stopping trans people doing their thing. Historically, when we victimise or disenfranchise a group of people, we do so either on the basis of what we perceive them to be or on the basis of what they do. Suffrage and civil rights concerns the former, gay and trans rights the latter.

What surprises me about TEFs and transphobes generally is that we seemed to be over both. The notion that a dominant group of people can prescribe how a minority can live their own lives seems old fashioned and wrong. A homophobe might not consider a gay man to be his idea of a man, but he is obliged to accept the latter's rights. Likewise a TEF might not accept that a trans woman is her idea of a woman, but so what? What happened to live and let live?

TEFs particularly surprise me because they are very aware of the battle for their own autonomy. No feminist would agree to have womanhood dictated to them by men, no black feminist would agree to having womanhood dictated to them by a white woman, no gay feminist would agree to having womanhood dictated to them by a straight feminist and no working class feminist would agree to having womanhood dictated to them by a middle class feminist.

Feminists appear to understand context and the primacy of their own rights to self-definition, and yet TEFs are united by the theory that they do have a right to dictate a notion of womanhood to trans women, based on a clearly debunked (by them) idea of uniformity of women's experiences.

I've heard some pretty far-out arguments... Trans people want to make children trans (okay, criminalise THAT), trans women want to rape cis women in ladies toilets (already as illegal as a cis man raping a cis woman in ladies toilets) and, of course, that how someone lives their life undermine's one's own sense of self, debunked not least by feminists as per the above, but also with regards to atheism or minority religious groups and homosexuals.

What's interesting is that it's almost always trans women who are the targets. There seems to be much less of a problem with trans men (much like gay men had a much harder time of it than gay women). I suspect the answer is that trans women are a perfect storm: they inspire the hatred of radical (now mainstream) feminists for being male, the hatred of misogynists for being female, and the hatred of homophobes for being, in some sense, queer.

Transphobic comments don't seem qualitatively better than misogynistic or homophobic ones, but they appear to inherit respectability from the misandry of untouchable feminists. Claiming that trans women will rape cis women sounds a lot like people who historically claimed that emancipated black men would rape white girls, or that gay men would always be trying to bum us in the showers, i.e. stupid. And certainly not tantamount to an argument against tolerating trans people generally. Again, it seems shockingly backward. Is it? Or is there a legitimate argument that has to be considered by a modern person?

A better question would be why the contents of other people's underpants cause folk such as you so much grief. — Banno

Excellent question!

much like gay men had a much harder time of it than gay women — Kenosha Kid

Not just in the past. I recently came across this:

Dominant accounts of sexual prejudice posit that negative attitudes toward nonheterosexual individuals are stronger for male (vs. female) targets, higher among men (vs. women), and driven, in part, by the perception that gay men and lesbian women violate traditional gender norms. We test these predictions in 23 countries, representing both Western and non-Western societies. Results show that (1) gay men are disliked more than lesbian women across all countries...

Transphobic comments don't seem qualitatively better than misogynistic or homophobic ones, — Kenosha Kid

What are you classifying as transphobic comments?

If you look at this website of crimes committed by trans identified people in the UK it is all men.

https://transcrimeuk.com/

The rate of female sex criminals has risen sharply and this is because sex offenders who are male identify as women and the courts legally have to refer to them as such. Put in terms of criminality trans women have the same pattern of criminality and behavioural problems as biological males.

This is why women are concerned about their safety. A male athlete who changes gender will have the advantage of being stronger and faster than a female and now in some cases are thrashing them in sporting events. Fallion Fox born male broke the skull of two female competitors and only lost one fight. So can you clarify what the transphobia is in these concerns?

May be you think that it is transphobic to simply have a private belief that sex is immutable and binary?

May be you think that it is transphobic to simply have a private belief that sex is immutable and binary? — Andrew4Handel

Which means what, exactly? When you say that sex is immutable and binary, are you saying that sex chromosomes are immutable and binary? Because that's false. There are varieties beyond the typical XX and XY. Are you saying that human reproductive organs are immutable and binary? Because that's false. There are varieties beyond the typical testes and penis or ovaries and vagina. Are you saying that some other biological make-up is immutable and binary? You'll first need to clarify what exactly it is, but I'd wager that you'd be false on that account too. Biology isn't black and white. Multi-cellular species are complicated.

But then, of course, if you're referring to biology when you say that sex is immutable and binary then you're talking past transgender people, as they're not claiming that their biology is mutable and non-binary (beyond the obvious fact that hormone treatments and surgery have real effects on their bodies). When a transgender man says "I am a man" he isn't saying "I have XY chromsomes" or "I have a naturally developed penis and testes."

What are you classifying as transphobic comments? — Andrew4Handel

Deleted

If you look at this website of crimes committed by trans identified people in the UK it is all men.

https://transcrimeuk.com/ — Andrew4Handel

Holy fuck, I totally misread this. What kind of psycho starts a website listing crimes by a particular demographic?

The rate of female sex criminals has risen sharply and this is because sex offenders who are male identify as women and the courts legally have to refer to them as such. — Andrew4Handel

Is this really true? I mean, I can believe that some chancers have tried it, but nothing that would account for a sharp rise in nominal female criminals. What's your source for this.

Either way, that's not something you can lay on a trans woman.

A New Zealand athlete will be the first trans-woman to compete in the olympics. Until 2013 he was competing in men's competitions.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/21/olympics-tokyo-laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

Personally I don't think any of this is fair to the women participants, because unlike the trans athlete the women did not develop as males in their formative years, but I'm interested to see how it plays out. I predict that some countries might come to abuse this loophole like East Germany did with its state doping programs.

I'd agree with you. How does this warrant intolerance to the vast majority of trans women who aren't advantaged in this way, or those that are who wouldn't do it?

There's something self-similar in transphobic arguments: in lieu of an argument against people living their lives in a way that makes sense to them, it's always: "Well this person committed a crime while trans," and "That person got an unfair advantage while trans." So what? What does that have to do with whether the majority of trans people should be allowed to live their lives?

Holy fuck, I totally misread this. What kind of psycho starts a website listing crimes by a particular demographic? — Kenosha Kid

People concerned about women's rights and their safety in prison.

What is being highlighted is dangerous predatory offenders allowed to identify as female based on word of mouth.

"The Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) provides the best measure of victimisation and estimated that for the year ending March 2020 there were 773,000 adults aged 16 to 74 years who were victims of sexual assault (including attempts) in the last year, with almost four times as many female victims (618,000) as male victims (155,000)."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/sexualoffencesinenglandandwalesoverview/march2020

The unlikelihood of a man being sexual assaulted by a trans man is the reason why people are mainly concerned about trans women in the case of self ID.

You were speculating about why a lot of concerns focus around trans women and I have given reasons. The only way I have heard of men a being affected by trans men is when they want a gay relationship with them. As a gay person I don't want to have sex with a man with a vagina or prosthetic penis,

For the record, I will be reporting that website to the UK police.

I'd agree with you. How does this warrant intolerance to the vast majority of trans women who aren't advantaged in this way, or those that are who wouldn't do it?

There's something self-similar in transphobic arguments: in lieu of an argument against people living their lives in a way that makes sense to them, it's always: "Well this person committed a crime while trans," and "That person got an unfair advantage while trans." So what? What does that have to do with whether the majority of trans people should be allowed to live their lives?

It doesn't warrant intolerance. I don't see how it could. But certainly some people will see it that way.

There are varieties beyond the typical testes and penis or ovaries and vagina. — Michael

These are birth defects though. Being born with an extra finger doesn't make you a new breed of human or being born without a womb this is not viable sexual variation that aids reproductive success.

When a transgender man says "I am a man" he isn't saying "I have XY chromsomes" or "I have a naturally developed penis and testes." — Michael

It is not clear what they are saying because the ideology or identity isn't coherent. One I person I spoke said sex or gender is a social construct so I said if sex roles'd people referring to themselves as real women and even some say biological women.

Well if you go on trans subreddits you can see that a lot of them talk about enjoying how they look in a dress and make up. A lot of people post photos for affirmation to see whether they pass (these are heavily moderated affirmation only spaces.) How much of being a woman is based on how you look? That is reinforcing the prejudice against gender non conformity.

"Well this person committed a crime while trans," and "That person got an unfair advantage while trans." So what? What does that have to do with whether the majority of trans people should be allowed to live their lives? — Kenosha Kid

No one is making this argument.

The concern with trans women committing crime at the same rates as biological men is a concern for the safety of vulnerable women and children. There are lots of other arguments being made against trans ideology such as opposition to telling gay children they are trans and grooming vulnerable children and putting people on dangerous chemicals and giving people surgery that can cause horrible side effects including gangrene, heart attacks and osteoporosis.


"NHS gender clinic ‘running conversion therapy for gay children’"

https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/21/tavistock-centre-nhs-gender-clinic-running-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-14804260/

I suspect the answer is that trans women are a perfect storm: they inspire the hatred of radical (now mainstream) feminists for being male, the hatred of misogynists for being female, and the hatred of homophobes for being, in some sense, queer. — Kenosha Kid

:up:

If you take the square root of women with dongs, subtract What Happens In Thailand Stays In Thailand, divide by wanking to t-thots on Pornhub, you get an old fashioned poofter, which if you multiply with a bloke you get poofter again.

Simple as.

For the record, I will be reporting that website to the UK police. — Kenosha Kid

This has been done, for the following reasons.

The website, far from the credible source Andrew seems to think it is, is the product of some pretty fucked-up people scouring the media (tabloid press, social media) for claims of trans women (very loosely defined) committing crimes. The website shows the full name (including dead name if applicable) and photographs (as male and female where available), along with tags the website authors believe we should label these people with.

The website authors claim it exists to protect cis women from trans women, however most of the crimes appear to be unrelated to crimes against women and girls, ranging from driving offenses and minor drug offenses to violent offenses against men, making their inclusion irrelevant.

Many of the supposed trans offenders who were imprisoned transitioned in prison, after they committed their crimes as cis men, making their inclusion irrelevant.

The website includes persons never charged, and persons charged and acquitted; in fact, these significantly outnumber the meagre number of individuals they confirmed as charged (although they don't seem very completist about this), making their inclusion irrelevant.

The website claims to be targeting trans women, but casts the net very wide in terms of what it may call trans, including transvestites and other cross-dressers, their inclusion irrelevant.

Sources the website use include rabid paedo-hunter--type Facebook groups and the worst and most hyperbolic of the UK tabloid gutter press. The MO of the site is very simple: to by any means maximise the number of crimes, whether they be true, false, alleged, or acquitted, it can try to lay at feet of a small minority group of people.

This is a clear case of publishing open hostility toward the transgender community, which is a hate crime in UK law.

As for you @Andrew4Handel, I'd say more reputable citations in future would be good, but it's not like it was tricky to gauge. I assume you knew what you were doing -- it generally seems to be the case that prejudiced, phobic people don't really care what people think of their evidence, and you'll likely be smirking yourself to sleep tonight. I haven't engaged with your responses since because on the basis of that I sense you're an irrational, hateful individual. And, to be honest, I'm still reeling from that website. God knows where else you go when you're working yourself up into a frenzy, but I'd rather not go there.

I wanted insight and I guess I got it, but there's no answer to my question to be had from you. I suppose it's an argument of sorts, but it's an argument driven by barefaced bullshit and hate, not quite what I was after. All I've really learned is how mentally disturbed transphobes can be.

but what if sexuality was a different thing than having a dong or not

Here's another website Kenosha might want to report to the police.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

"These MOJ statistics show that transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality. We conclude that transwomen in prison exhibit a propensity to sexual crime that matches their birth sex and not their gender identity. This is relevant and necessary information when making legislation and policies designed to keep women safe."

https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

"(...)So in 2017 we published our own new research showing that half of all known transgender prisoners require max security or specialist sex offender prisons. Despite numerous attempts by others to discredit our work the MOJ has now confirmed the accuracy of our findings. Official figures released by the MOJ in 2018 show that half of all known transgender prisoners counted in April 2017 had at least one previous conviction for sex offences."

"The public has been shocked to learn that since 2016 male prisoners in the UK have been allowed to ask to be transferred to a women’s prison. All they need to do is self-identify as a woman. Legal or medical transition is not required for permission to transfer meaning that legally-male prisoners complete with a penis are currently living alongside women in prison."

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.

Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089

Quotes by prominent trans women academics and authors

“Getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.” Andrea Long Chu

"The asshole [is] a universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed" Andrea Long Chu

"While I never really believed the cliché about women being good for only one thing, that sentiment kept creeping into my fantasies.

"It’s called forced feminization... transforming the loss of male privilege into the best f*ck ever." Julia Serano

"I think there are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women. That was certainly true of me." Juno Dawson (Formerly James Dawson)

If you’re arguing from the position that specific behavioral and affective dispositions are associated with biological gender, are you also making a distinction between chromosomal gender and biological gender? For instance, are there gay men who belong to the extreme effeminate end of a Kinsey behavioral scale and who consequently are likely to lack the aggressivity traits you are pointing to in trans women? If so , would you concede that there are intermediate psychological genders that the male/ female binary doesn’t capture?