But Hamas. Hamas. Yeah, those Hamas fighter jets and bunker bombs are an existential threat. — Manuel

You forgot to mention the 1,500 rockets fired into Israel. The only reason they didn't kill thousands of people is because of Israel's intelligent Iron dome project which intercepts these missiles. That you must be disappointed by.

It does not. Repeating this claim does not make it true. — Manuel

The attempt to destroy Israel started immediately after it's foundation. That is how Palestinians lost territory. You are lying. Israel was attacked after is modern creation and several times after by Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc and sponsored by Iran. Who do you know that want's Israel to survive? Clearly not you.

Which is a case in point of supreme lunacy.

Total insanity and evil — Manuel

So you think Israel should allow itself to be wiped out by people like yourself without defending itself and taking down its aggressors. I will be happy to die to prevent the defeat of Israel and its Anti-Semitic enemies. Israel taking it's enemies to its grave with it is highly desirable and is seeming a distinct possibility.

open air prison? — Manuel

Created by Hamas killing its opponents and firing rockets into Israel.

Do you want Hamas to be allowed in to Israel to directly massacre the Jews?

Israel faces an existential threat to its existence which many people here seem to embrace.

Israel need psychiatric treatment. This is paranoia on steroids. — Manuel

Has anyone fired 1,500 rockets at your house recently?

Hamas cannot destroy Israel — Manuel

That is what they are doing now by stoking intercommunal violence.

Again false. I want Israel to be safe and continue existing. It is a unique country with promising aspects to it. — Manuel

But you don't recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation trying to destroy them or the previous attacks on Israel by it's neighbours an effort to destroy them? Israel won it's territory like most countries in a war it did not instigate.

How can you partake in the ethical argument if this is your stance though. Aren't you just saying you've picked a side and that's it? — Baden

No. I am saying the premises of the debate are fallacious. Moral debates are mainly garbage. I am antinatalist/ No one who creates children has a moral leg to stand on in my opinion.

What is the ethical debate here anyway? I created a thread a long time ago about the validity of property and countries which received a handful of responses. People are not interested in the foundation of ethics or things like property but flair up about stereotypical tribal debates.

They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place. — Manuel

Because no Jews belong in the Middle East? I live in the UK which has over 6 million immigrants. Do they belong here. Who are YOU to decide who belongs where?

Yes I agree with the bold part. — Manuel

No you don't.

Israel has nukes — Manuel

It can't use it's nukes on its own population. It is facing a civil war. That is the tactic of Hamas. Israel's neighbours know that they could never attack Israel without severe reprisals so they fund the Palestinians to attack them. They supply Hamas with weapons and money in a proxy war.

Israeli's already live in what was called Palestine. They should not steal the lands of what remains of Palestine. — Manuel

This is such a philosophically shallow debate.

Countries do not exist they are a linguistic turn invented humans. No animal else considers it lives in a country. Palestine was never a country but a region of the Middle east colonised Multiple times.

You are guilty of reification and making human constructs as if they were physical facts.

No one is entitled to anything, humans rights don't exist. We are just part of nature struggling to survive.

The survival of the Jews is apparently not high on your agenda.

I am not claiming Israel has done nothing wrong but they are clearly in an existential fight for survival.

Palestine one race? Short term I suppose. — Manuel

Anyone should be allowed to live anywhere. That is the logical and philosophical only viable position. The attempt to eradicate Jews from the Middle east is the epitome of a Genocide.

2 million or so Arabs live within Israel but no Jews should live in Palestine? Um okay.

The settlements are controversial but the alternative is a middle east free of Jews.

What Israel is doing now is nothing short of monstrous — Manuel

Under 200 Palestinians including several members of Hamas have died after Hamas launched 1,500 rockets arbitrarily into Israel which has nearly 2 million Palestinians living there . One rocket killing an Israeli-Palestinian seven year old boy.

I think you need to revisit the definition of monstrous.

They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place. — Manuel

Do you think any Jews belong in the Middle east?

Do you think Palestine should be a one race country?

Hamas is ugly, but they fight back — Manuel

Fight back against what? Israel left the the Gaza strip making it a Jew free territory and Hamas used it to fire rockets into Israel. When has Hamas tried to negotiate a peace? Apparently no Jew should live in the Middle East. Let us not forget the expulsion of Million's of Jews from Arabic countries at the same time as Nakba

My relatives have.. because it is "The Holy Land" and they are Christians.

I have met an Israeli cab driver in my city (Bristol. UK )I know a former Israeli midwife who now lives in England with her British husband. (Neither of them are millionaires.) I know a Belgian Jew who escaped the Holocaust and spent most of her life in my city.

Israel only withdrew there settlements because they could reap no benefit from the land, not due to good will. — Manuel

Israel withdrew their settlements by forcing the settlers out.

After that Hamas took control and killed the Fatah opposition. They forced Israel to have a blockade as self defence and their charter calls for the extermination of Israel. Hamas is collectively punishing Gaza.

Not everyone suffering is a Victim.

What do you want Israel to do?

Israel cannot undermine it's own security and no one should have to.

Can you believe Baden just deleted several posts? I think he may be too deeply invested in this issue, and doesn't like us expressing views different from his own. We should both become Muslim loving Commies so we can continue to use this site. — counterpunch

We should probably stick on topic. At least we haven't been banned which is prolific on Twitter and reddit. The use of cancelling and banning now has become an essential tool of suppressing rational debate in favour of uncritical ideology.

Yes you're right. It's mostly a way of talking about how people are trapped in an open air prison and being massacred. All while going through Covid and caloric restrictions. — Manuel

There are nearly 2 million people in Gaza and under 200 hundred of them have died including Hamas officials after Hamas indiscriminately launched 1,500 hundred rockets into Israel.

Hamas has created the prison. After the Israelis withdrew their settlements on the strip they have launched non stop aggression and murdered their political opponents including Fatah.

Let me repeat what the United Arab Emirates said:" If Hamas does not commit to complete calm, it is dooming the residents of the Strip to a life of suffering. Its leaders must understand that their policies are first and foremost hurting the people of Gaza.”

Here's a thing to keep in mind: if everyone who disagrees with you looks biased and dishonest to you, it's exceedingly likely you are yourself biased and dishonest. — Echarmion

Maybe.
However often the truth is lost in relativism. To me relativism is gaslighting and claiming all claims are equal.

This thread now has a similar number of pro Israelis and anti Israeli's making it a balanced discussion. (I suppose)

Jews have traditionally voted Labour - and so do Muslims. They are fighting for control of the party. So the Israel/Palestine conflict (and every other conflict of identity) is occurring within the Labour Party, as well as in the middle east — counterpunch

I have never understood why being left wing means you have to oppose Israel.

I think the reason most people oppose Israel is Left wing ideology, Islamic pressure or simple anti-Semitism.

A lot of Muslims in the UK actually support Israel but they are not allowed to do so publicly. A lot of Iranians support Israel because they don't support the Iranian regime and its support of war and terrorism.

No one's support of the Palestine seems to be unbiased and often relies on canards and lies including blood libel.

and I will vote Tory. They may be horrible bastards, but it works economically — counterpunch

I think the Tories have improved since the pandemic started and have had to institute massive social interventions. If it lasts I could vote for them.

I don't understand why Labour thinks working class people are interested in identity politics and an irrelevant Middle East conflict.

There are Labour supporters of Israel but of course they receive death threats. Only further electoral defeats could change Labours ideology.

The obsession with Israel is really pathological.

Please be aware that a criticism of Islam could lead to the UK Labour Party turning itself inside out for several years — counterpunch

I Have always voted labour but they have made themselves unelectable and I feel relieved when they get thrashed in elections. I won't stoop to voting Tory so I may have to vote an independent candidate next time.

Supporters of the Palestinians (Anti-semites?) seem surprised when pro Israel supporters (myself) are as vociferous as themselves. You're not going to win. I will never stop supporting the Jews and Israel.

The delusion of moral authority reeking from Anti-israelis is amusing if not stomach churning.

Um yeah okay what?

. So, please stay on topic. — Baden

The topic is an analysis of Israel's actions. How can you analyse Israel actions if you don't compare them with anything else?

I am comparing them to something else to show how exaggerated the vilification of Israel is.

In "defending" themselves against the Palesistinians, what are the limits in terms of civilian causalities Israel can justifiably inflict relative to the civilian casualties they themselves have endured? — Baden

It is not a competition. Self defence is self defence. Firing 1,500 rockets indiscriminately on civilians is not self defence. Self defence due to attempted (mass) murder has no restrictions. How can Israel defend themselves if Hamas hides behind women and children.

The Palestinian casualties are very low considering there is a population nearly two million in Gaza and the deaths are under 200 hundred. The deaths of Palestinians are always used as propaganda and the deaths of Jews are always defended.

War by it's very nature cannot be ethical. A war can be a mutual combat or self defence but the inevitable deaths are not moral.

You brought in information absolutely irrelevant to the thread. The only reason to do so apparently to attack Muslims. Don't do that again. — Baden

It is not irrelevant to the thread because you are using inflammatory language against the Israeli's which you have not applied elsewhere. So I am putting your inflammatory language into perspective.

Why is this issue more important and more deserving of hysterical coverage? Apparently this the only conflict that warrants a thread on philosophy forum and surprisingly (not) it involves the Jews.

How can you devote a thread to vilifying Israel whilst ignoring much greater casualties, prejudice, misogyny and real genocide/gendercide elsewhere. I can only think of one reason for that and it begins with A.

Also opposing a religion is not a phobia I was a victim of religious child abuse my entire childhood. religion is spread by childhood indoctrination. Supporting Islam or any other religion is a self lobotomy and defence of child abuse.

As someone else said elsewhere "Firing 1,500 rockets into Israel is not ethnic cleansing"

Read the Hamas charter people.

Ah, I see, you're an Islamophobe — Baden

Incredible! Opposing the abduction, rape and forced conversion of girls and the murder of gay people makes me an Islamophobe. Now your true colours are showing.

Here's a particularly delusional piece from Harriet Sherwood:

"The cave and an adjacent tent are home to 18 people: Nawal's father, his two wives and 15 children. The family's 200 sheep are penned outside. "

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/08/children-of-occupation-growing-up-in-palestine

It is not Israel's fault that someone has 15 children

The UAE is not America HTH

I don't want to engage with you I just want to stop your lies and Hysteria.

Where is your thread supporting the thousands of children starved to death in Yemen. Or the thousands of children killed in Syria? The persecution of Christians around the world. The kidnap and rape of Pakistani Hindu and Christian girsl?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/muslim-teen-throat-slit-dad-20724696

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwkQCKYRBFo

People you hypocritical liars don't care about.

Lies and Hysteria. Hamas forced Israel to fire rockets into Israel knowing its civilians would die. the same as Germany and japan caused their civilians to die by their instigation of aggression.

Just want to point out what an insult it is to Jews, including very many Israeli Jews, to presume they must, by definition, support these terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians. — Baden

I am a not Jewish. Stop spreading the deeply Anti-Semitic myth no one supports Israel other than Jews. Let me requote this from very Islamic UAE:

"If Hamas does not commit to complete calm, it is dooming the residents of the Strip to a life of suffering. Its leaders must understand that their policies are first and foremost hurting the people of Gaza.”

They are defending themselves and targeting Hamas. You are conflating civilian casualties caused by Israel's self defence with civilian casualties caused by Hamas indiscriminately firing 1,5000 rockets into Israel which by the way has nearly two million Palestinian occupants one of which was a 7 year old Arabic child killed by Hamas.