In "defending" themselves against the Palesistinians, what are the limits in terms of civilian causalities Israel can justifiably inflict relative to the civilian casualties they themselves have endured? — Baden

It is not a competition. Self defence is self defence. Firing 1,500 rockets indiscriminately on civilians is not self defence. Self defence due to attempted (mass) murder has no restrictions. How can Israel defend themselves if Hamas hides behind women and children.

The Palestinian casualties are very low considering there is a population nearly two million in Gaza and the deaths are under 200 hundred. The deaths of Palestinians are always used as propaganda and the deaths of Jews are always defended.

War by it's very nature cannot be ethical. A war can be a mutual combat or self defence but the inevitable deaths are not moral.

. So, please stay on topic. — Baden

The topic is an analysis of Israel's actions. How can you analyse Israel actions if you don't compare them with anything else?

I am comparing them to something else to show how exaggerated the vilification of Israel is.

You are the argument. Thank you.

Um yeah okay what?

I am comparing them to something else to show how exaggerated the vilification of Israel is. — Andrew4Handel

Andrew,

Please be aware that criticism of Islam could lead to the UK Labour Party turning itself inside out for several years, and going AWOL at the height of a domestic crisis - like they did during brexit. Choose your words carefully. You know the left are very, very easily distracted by political correctness. A comment like yours could, quite conceivably, put the whole of the left out of action for years to come.

Supporters of the Palestinians (Anti-semites?) seem surprised when pro Israel supporters (myself) are as vociferous as themselves. You're not going to win. I will never stop supporting the Jews and Israel.

The delusion of moral authority reeking from Anti-israelis is amusing if not stomach churning.

Please be aware that a criticism of Islam could lead to the UK Labour Party turning itself inside out for several years — counterpunch

I Have always voted labour but they have made themselves unelectable and I feel relieved when they get thrashed in elections. I won't stoop to voting Tory so I may have to vote an independent candidate next time.

I Have always voted labour but they have made themselves unelectable and I feel relieved when they get thrashed in elections. I won't stoop to voting Tory so I may have to vote an independent candidate next time. — Andrew4Handel

I was raised in the red wall constituencies Labour lost in the North, and I will vote Tory. They may be horrible bastards, but it works economically - and at least they don't take everyone else's side against our own. Labour took the North for granted - while pursuing their identity politics agenda, and I don't fancy their politically correct chances of repairing that damage, ever. If the Tories can create economic opportunity in the North - and that wouldn't take much investment because the north is poor compared to the south east, they will be impossible to displace.

and I will vote Tory. They may be horrible bastards, but it works economically — counterpunch

I think the Tories have improved since the pandemic started and have had to institute massive social interventions. If it lasts I could vote for them.

I don't understand why Labour thinks working class people are interested in identity politics and an irrelevant Middle East conflict.

There are Labour supporters of Israel but of course they receive death threats. Only further electoral defeats could change Labours ideology.

The obsession with Israel is really pathological.

Faint praise is still praise. For me, the Tories need to make good on brexit in the coming years. (I don't know how possible that will be given the pandemic, but...) They can use their new found freedom from Brussels to invest in industry, like China does - and so enable us to compete.

The obsession with Israel is really pathological. — Andrew4Handel

Jews have traditionally voted Labour - and so do Muslims. They are fighting for control of the party. So the Israel/Palestine conflict (and every other conflict of identity) is occurring within the Labour Party, as well as in the middle east. Remember when Alastair Campbell said "We don't do God." Wise words!

Jews have traditionally voted Labour - and so do Muslims. They are fighting for control of the party. — counterpunch

Is that an inference, or an observation, or something else?

Opinion, I suppose. I couldn't honestly tell you what it's based on, except a lifelong interest in politics.

Jews have traditionally voted Labour - and so do Muslims. They are fighting for control of the party. So the Israel/Palestine conflict (and every other conflict of identity) is occurring within the Labour Party, as well as in the middle east — counterpunch

I have never understood why being left wing means you have to oppose Israel.

I think the reason most people oppose Israel is Left wing ideology, Islamic pressure or simple anti-Semitism.

A lot of Muslims in the UK actually support Israel but they are not allowed to do so publicly. A lot of Iranians support Israel because they don't support the Iranian regime and its support of war and terrorism.

No one's support of the Palestine seems to be unbiased and often relies on canards and lies including blood libel.

No one's support of the Palestine seems to be unbiased and often relies on canards and lies including blood libel. — Andrew4Handel

Here's a thing to keep in mind: if everyone who disagrees with you looks biased and dishonest to you, it's exceedingly likely you are yourself biased and dishonest.

It's the asshole rule: if you meet one asshole on your way to work, you met an asshole. If you meet only assholes, then you're the asshole.

Unless it's something extremely simple, like whether Jews have a right to exist, it's very unlikely that you are so immune to bias that no-one could ever disagree with you and be right.

I have never understood why being left wing means you have to oppose Israel. I think the reason most people oppose Israel is Left wing ideology, Islamic pressure or simple anti-Semitism. A lot of Muslims in the UK actually support Israel but they are not allowed to do so publicly. A lot of Iranians support Israel because they don't support the Iranian regime and its support of war and terrorism. No one's support of the Palestine seems to be unbiased and often relies on canards and lies including blood libel. — Andrew4Handel

Maybe Jews have been too economically successful - too involved in finance and business, to be trusted around the Labour Party's precious communist ideals. I think you're right about some Muslims withdrawing support for Palestine - but I'm not sure that translates directly into support for Israel. It's a Sunni/Shi-ite thing, related to in turn to Saudi Arabia and Iran vying for influence in the middle east - but I can't say I understand it entirely.

Here's a thing to keep in mind: if everyone who disagrees with you looks biased and dishonest to you, it's exceedingly likely you are yourself biased and dishonest. — Echarmion

Maybe.
However often the truth is lost in relativism. To me relativism is gaslighting and claiming all claims are equal.

This thread now has a similar number of pro Israelis and anti Israeli's making it a balanced discussion. (I suppose)

You are the argument. Thank you. — StreetlightX

As is anyone who unashamedly supports one side on an ethical issue because of who they are rather than what they do. And I presume the absurd attempted distractions concerning communism and UK politics will continue until they are modded out, but that anyone with any sense will ignore them.

I presume the absurd attempted distractions concerning communism and UK politics will continue until they are modded out, but that anyone with any sense will ignore them. — Baden

Are you okay Baden? Did your nine year old get a hold of your keyboard again? Or is that really you?

Both of you will need to stay on topic. You can start your own thread about purported anti-semitic left-wing Corbynism if you wish. This thread is specifically about whether Israel is justified in killing civilians.

To re-emphasize, you can either argue that the killing is justified and present relevant arguments or it's not and present relevant arguments. Being emotive is OK given the subject matter but going totally off-topic isn't.

:up:



Yes you're right. It's mostly a way of talking about how people are trapped in an open air prison and being massacred. All while going through Covid and caloric restrictions.

Albright is worse than trash.

"Property is theft" — Andrew4Handel

Yeah, ok.

In today's world, property means people's livelihood and sense of identity.

Yes you're right. It's mostly a way of talking about how people are trapped in an open air prison and being massacred. All while going through Covid and caloric restrictions. — Manuel

There are nearly 2 million people in Gaza and under 200 hundred of them have died including Hamas officials after Hamas indiscriminately launched 1,500 hundred rockets into Israel.

Hamas has created the prison. After the Israelis withdrew their settlements on the strip they have launched non stop aggression and murdered their political opponents including Fatah.

Let me repeat what the United Arab Emirates said:" If Hamas does not commit to complete calm, it is dooming the residents of the Strip to a life of suffering. Its leaders must understand that their policies are first and foremost hurting the people of Gaza.”

Can you believe Baden just deleted several posts? I think he may be too deeply invested in this issue, and doesn't like us expressing views different from his own. We should both become Muslim loving Commies so we can continue to use this site. — counterpunch

We should probably stick on topic. At least we haven't been banned which is prolific on Twitter and reddit. The use of cancelling and banning now has become an essential tool of suppressing rational debate in favour of uncritical ideology.

Hamas has created the prison. After the Israelis withdrew their settlements on the strip they have launched non stop aggression and murdered their political opponents including Fatah. — Andrew4Handel

This is false. Hamas has no control over the territory. No control on the blockade. They don't even have the control of being able to leave Gaza.

Israel only withdrew there settlements because they could reap no benefit from the land, not due to good will.

Hamas is ugly, but they fight back and give the people in Gaza a modicum of dignity. If Israel doesn't like Hamas, they should not have helped create them in the first place. Again, the Marxists at the WSJ can confirm this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Who in this thread has actually visited Israel and Palestine? — Tzeentch

Anyone?

Israel only withdrew there settlements because they could reap no benefit from the land, not due to good will. — Manuel

Israel withdrew their settlements by forcing the settlers out.

After that Hamas took control and killed the Fatah opposition. They forced Israel to have a blockade as self defence and their charter calls for the extermination of Israel. Hamas is collectively punishing Gaza.

Not everyone suffering is a Victim.

What do you want Israel to do?

Israel cannot undermine it's own security and no one should have to.

I am from Bristol in the South West. A hot bed of leftism and Pro-Palestinian activism. I am embarrassed for voting for Corbyn because I now consider him very Anti-Semitic. — Andrew4Handel

I'm sorry. I don't know where I got the impression you're from the North. It's been deleted, so I can't check. Anyhow, I enjoyed the discussion, but I need to wash and eat.

My relatives have.. because it is "The Holy Land" and they are Christians.

I have met an Israeli cab driver in my city (Bristol. UK )I know a former Israeli midwife who now lives in England with her British husband. (Neither of them are millionaires.) I know a Belgian Jew who escaped the Holocaust and spent most of her life in my city.

Hamas is ugly, but they fight back — Manuel

Fight back against what? Israel left the the Gaza strip making it a Jew free territory and Hamas used it to fire rockets into Israel. When has Hamas tried to negotiate a peace? Apparently no Jew should live in the Middle East. Let us not forget the expulsion of Million's of Jews from Arabic countries at the same time as Nakba

Israel withdrew their settlements by forcing the settlers out. — Andrew4Handel

They made a big show of it. Embarrassing really. As if the settlers were going to be placed in refugee camps in Israel. :roll: They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place.

After that Hamas took control and killed the Fatah opposition. They forced Israel to have a blockade as self defence and their charter calls for the extermination of Israel. Hamas is collectively punishing Gaza. — Andrew4Handel

Hamas won a democratic election in Gaza. Israel did not like the results and punished Gazans for voting Hamas in.

What do you want Israel to do? — Andrew4Handel

Withdraw as stated in resolution 242. Give Palestinians a state, autonomy. Risk peace for a change. If, under given circumstances they launch rockets again, then Israel would be defending itself. It cannot defend itself in a territory it is occupying.

What Israel is doing now is nothing short of monstrous.

Fight back against what? Israel left the the Gaza strip making it a Jew free territory and Hamas used it to fire rockets into Israel. When has Hamas tried to negotiate a peace? — Andrew4Handel

Against the strongest army in the Middle East? A country with nuclear weapons. Again, they withdrew because that territory was not beneficial to Israel, not out of good will.

When has Hamas wanted peace?

https://peacenews.info/node/3849/hamas-has-offered-peace

On 21 April 2008, hard-line Hamas leader Khaled Meshal told reporters in Damascus that the organisation was willing to a ten-year truce with Israel on the 1967 borders, without formally recognising the state of Israel: “We agree to a [Palestinian] state on pre-67 borders, with Jerusalem as its capital with genuine sovereignty without settlements but without recognizing Israel. We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hamas-offers-peace-deal-with-israel-1.1007111

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSTRE6B02ND20101201

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Hamas-would-accept-Saudi-peace-plan-spokesman-2844179.php

And etc. etc.

They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place. — Manuel

Do you think any Jews belong in the Middle east?

Do you think Palestine should be a one race country?