I am just not sure how to balance supporting their grievances and criticising their tactics. — Echarmion

Is it even the tactics of BLM or most other black groups to be violent? We've said a lot about the violence, but a majority of the protestors are peaceful and wish to keep that way. But it's a volatile situation that sometimes gets out of hand.

The anarchists and white supremacists trying to turn this into something else aren't supporting their cause.

Order is better for whom? — Benkei

Everyone who isn't a warlord, ultimately.

I'll take it! Kinda. Probably more Maoist. State's are a bit meh. — StreetlightX

China sure turned out to be a shining socialist example. Both authoritarian and capitalist!

These armchair warriors like talking up violence but they would shit themselves if confronted by it. — Chester

I don't know. I'm just shocked and disgusted that they're okay with people being harmed as long as it wrecks the system, for those who seem to want that.

There were the LA riots in 1992 after the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King. — Michael

The context was large scale peaceful protests being unsuccessful the past 50 years.

What's politics for? — Benkei

For people to figure out how to divide up power.

.

Violence is the continuation of politics but other means.

But for what end? Who wins?

The peaceful protest that has everyone's backing has made no progress in 50 years. That is a fact. — unenlightened

When has there been such a thing on this scale since the 60s? You could rightfully argue there should have been one before this.

But we'll see what the rioting accomplishes.

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work? — unenlightened

The ongoing peaceful protest, which had everyone's backing, with a few exceptions like understandably torching the police precinct after the cops vacated.

Yes, I'm an antifascist. — StreetlightX

I'd think you'd make a really good fascist, given a chance.

A step in the right direction would be to stop the extra-judicial killings; suggesting it would be a good idea is just more bull. — unenlightened

I agree with that. Doesn't require looting and burning.

white middle class people without meaning in their lives — Chester

It's the violent white protesters destroying and instigating shit that really make me angry. Right, left or just spoiling for a fight, doesn't matter.

Literally no one but you has even mentioned the word 'revolution' you insufferable two-bit dolt — StreetlightX

As if using a specific word is the only way to to discuss an idea, you dumb shit. And it's not even literally true. I went back and checked.

They were probably undercover cops...who knows? — Chester

Possibly. Likely several different groups trying to infiltrate.

I love how the protestors stopped that dude from trying to turn things violent. Handing him over the the police is hilarious!

I was watching a live stream in Minny where protesters they escorted another Antifa looking dude out. They didn't want to have anything to do with him.

Also, Minny citizens are reporting people plotting violence to the authorities.

VoTe BlUe No MaTtEr WhO — StreetlightX

aRe yOu FoUrTeEn?

But, regardless of Baden, I did not mention the word capitalism in my analysis. — boethius

That's a separate argument with other posters in this thread who want an actual revolution because they view capitalism as the root of all the injustice in the world, or much of it anyway.

at the conclusion that the state has lost legitimacy and that people have good reason to pursue their own idea of justice rather than participate in the common idea of justice that is (well enough) expressed through the state intellectual structure and it's agents. — boethius

But again, what is the ultimate goal of the looting and burning? How is it going to reform the police?

The protests are directed at police injustice. The violence though is more random, and at least some of the time, it appears there are people started it with their own agenda.

I'm here to try and make sure the discourse around legitimate protests doesn't get co-opted — StreetlightX

LOL!

I'm not quite sure where I differ in my analysis, but please point it out — boethius

I don't fully agree with Baden (or yourself), but he wasn't turning this into a revolution against capitalism. Nor did he make an argument that anything goes. Or that people dying and starving would be justifiable.

. MLK's logic was that segregation civil disobedience (which is not peaceful protesting) forces the state to do it's violence in broad daylight for all to see. — boethius

Right, but civili disobedience is different than destroying people's property and work places. And it was well organized. People can use civil disobedience against the police. The issue is with the police, not some random business.

What's changed, the understanding of politics or simply who's side is using violence to pursue their idea of justice and legitimate state power? — boethius

I don't see what burning or looting accomplishes other than to upset a lot of people.

If the mechanisms by which peaceful protesting was effective in the past, which is debatable as otherwise why would society come to such a point, then peaceful protesters are less laudible than the looters and indeed the police; for at least the looters and police have some sort of realistic political understanding. — boethius

So what is the outcome of all this? It might force political reform. But it could have the opposite effect of crackdowns and more support for Trump's reelection as a backlash. Just about everyone in America had the protest's back at first. But a lot of people don't like seeing cities burnt.

And someone could send the situation into a deadly spiral, with a bunch of people dying.

Is the violence organize in a way to achieve some end? Will it force police unions and mayors to the table to accept some terms? Just burning and looting does what in the end other than get on the news?

Well said. I'm not a skeptic, but I think their arguments are meaningful, and can't be as easily dismissed as waving one's hands about.

You haven't bothered to read and understand Baden or @StreetlightX. — boethius

Or I don't agree with what Street and a couple other socialists have said. Baden was making a more reasonable argument.

If you just want to shout and insult, you can do that in youtube comments. — boethius

Nah, I'll do it here.

he peaceful protesters are laudible only insofar as their belief in peaceful protesting ability to influence a fair (enough) political process is actually true. — boethius

They have been successful before. That doesn't mean everything can be fixed at once. So more are needed.

American's today do not condemn the Boston riots and looting that birthed America, but the privileged classes that owned the tea did so at the time; so, from a moral perspective, this maybe all that we are seeing, and nothing else. — boethius

Except for the local people who have their livelihoods destroyed and people hurt during the protests. There's been a few deaths now.

I doubt that our skill at using this word can be converted to some explicit, exhaustive theory. — path

Yeah, probably not.

something akin to the Balkan peninsula. but i could be wrong. — christian2017

You mean different regions becoming their own countries? The protests aren't aimed at succession, and they have a common goal which is to force police reform. Things could devolve into more chaos, but it's not putting pressure on states breaking up. This isn't a regional fight between different states.

Why does the skeptic not doubt the existence of the mental, of the inner? Perhaps because the skeptic assumes without proof that language/thought is 'inside.' — path

Well, call it mental, subjective, inner or whatever, the skeptic has doubt because of issues with perception, memory, equally good arguments for and against whatever, and the like. But it doesn't have to be solipsistic. It could be an inter-subjective kind of skepticism where we agree on human experience, but getting from there to claims about the external world are seen as problematic.

in my opinion this is the end of america. — christian2017

What do you think would replace it?

Have you noticed the USA is currently on worse footing with itself than HK is with China, and is having worse riots than any country in Africa, in fact anywhere in the world, since the Arab Spring? — ernestm

Yeah, this blew up real fast.

There was no looting during the riots in HK. — ernestm

I admire how organized and disciplined the HK protestors are.

You're right.

Imagine thinking this is necessary. Listen to that guy's anguish over having his business burned down.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1266847371725541380

Fuck you assholes who justify this shit.

Isn't Moore's claim like an astronomer thinking stars, galaxies, giant gas clouds, space dust, etc. exist by just looking at her telescope? — TheMadFool

Pretty much. It accomplishes nothing against the skeptic. Like skeptics hadn't considered having hands before.

Adopting a precautionary strategy is the correct approach when the risk is uncertain and potentially devastating. — Andrew M

Yeah, it's better to err on the side of caution than risk something a lot worse.

Where exactly is the boundary between internal reality and external reality — TheMadFool

Our perception. Hands have nerves, so they're part of it.

Here's a good reddit quote:

Protesters hand a rioter over to police for what looks like trying to break off some concrete to throw it. That's what's needed. And the police need to respect the peaceful protesters and stop shooting stuff at them.



https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/guaghc/protesters_hand_rioter_over_to_police/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Police being confrontational has escalated the situation unlike places where they joined the protests. Maybe it would be best at this point to back off and let the looting die down. Show some solidarity with the concerns of the protesters.

Care to enforce that?

I can't wait for Biden to win in November.

You quoted a shill piece for a corporatist racist. — StreetlightX

Was any of it untrue, asshole?

As if black voters vote as a collective block, dickhead. — StreetlightX

I quoted an NPR article, dumbass. But you can go look up the percentage of black folks who vote democratic. 91% voted for Hillary. Bernie lost the primary in part because he wasn't appealing to older black voters. They do like Biden though.

Easy stuff to look up. But you know better.