Tbh I mentally checked out when I read Judaism is "fucking dumb." I get it, you think all the religions of the world are "fucking dumb" except, apparently, whatever you follow (which you have not made entirely clear). That belief would be truth and it is that which must be taught to everyone else including those idiots in the Middle East. I'm just not dealing with it today. I'll respond to your bigotry before anything else. So no, you don't get a response from me until I deal with the attitudes/assumptions behind your response. Saying Judaism is a "fucking dumb" religion is a ridiculous statement. Maybe it's that monotheism is stupid? Or all theisms in general are stupid? Then just say that. :roll:

But I suspect that there's something about Judaism in particular that you do not like which is what makes you a bigot. :wink:

All true. But what of self-sacrifice in an instance where, according to the social reality, it would seem completely futile?

Consider the Judenrat in the Lodz ghetto. This example is drawn from Arendt's work in Eichmann in Jerusalem. You can sign the document to summon the police to round up some of the populace to send them off them on trains to certain death, or you could choose not to sign. But if you don't sign, you'll be hanged the next day and someone else will fill your position who will sign and the group will be rounded up regardless. Your sacrifice will be completely meaningless and make no ultimate difference to the matter. Do we still self-sacrifice here?

Perhaps, but then I don't think we have Christianity given Paul's role in spreading it. I wasn't raised Christian so I don't have that baggage. I understand though that many Christians focus quite strongly on Paul's views and place them essentially on par with Jesus's word.

Iran might hope for this, but perhaps the lure for Bibi is too great now. IDF is already talking of counter strikes. — ssu

After the attack I figure Israel must respond in some way to save face even if its orchestrated. Yet Israel did not respond militarily within a day or two of the attack so clearly they're taking their time with it. Bibi already has a war with Hamas and I don't see potentially sparking WWIII as something that he'd hope to get involved with, yet he must respond in some way. How - I don't know.

And this just undermines also the idea that all Arab countries are just waiting to get the chance to kill all the Jews and/or push them into the sea. — ssu

Yeah, this idea is somewhat of a relic of wars of past decades as well as the fact that Israel has no true friends in the region. It is not the case for all the Arabs, but some certain wish for Israel's demise. Israel and Jordan or the Saudis may share common enemies, but I would hardly call them "friends" like the US-UK are or the US and Canada. Even biblically, Israel is described as a nation which often goes at it alone. And Israel is not wrong in being cautious of Islam. The last Jewish state lasted 103 years (2nd and 1st century BC), this current one is at 76 and has had 8 wars so I'd expect a few more over the next few decades.

Whatever it is that you or your ancestors believed in, I want you to know that it's fucking dumb and it's clearly devolved from what it was. Let me explain it to you. Let me tell you what it means to be Dutch. Now go open your borders and welcome in more migrants.

I hate the 72 virgins crowd as much as anyone, but sometimes one must be willing to lay down one's life especially against totalitarian systems which thrive/perpetuate off the idea that a single person's death is meaningless and futile and makes zero ultimate difference. See Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.

Paul says a lot of things I don't much like. I like the idea that one's good deeds should outnumber one's bad deeds. That is something we flawed creatures can manage. — BC

I also do not agree with everything that Paul says nor do I believe his word should be taken as absolute truth. That's Jewish tradition. Paul has always seemed to me a very flawed person trying to make the best of his situation.

Nor would it fly in Jewish circles. I'll hear this song and think to myself "no way." Paul is right when he says all have sinned. But Judaism doesn't say we're all rotten to the core with sin. As long as your good deeds outnumber your sins you're considered righteous. :ok:

So just do more good than bad. But Paul falls short in many ways and he knows he's gonna need a lot of grace and a lot of faith.

And this just shows how difficult it is to get a negotiated peace in the Middle East. — ssu

However, as recent events have demonstrated, the entire Arab world is not Israel's enemy. Jordan and the Saudis evidently are not fans of the Iranian regime and the Arab world has its own divides.

Why not would they? They still need to have relations with European and Asian states. They couldn't do it unnoticed, that's for sure. — ssu

Did the Gazans think this way on 10/7? Or during the second intifada? Their plan is to defeat Israel and then it's onto Europe. Look up the Banu Qurayza. You'll hear "Khybar, Khybar ya Yahud" chanted.

You can convert to it — Benkei

And try converting out of it. A Jew who believes Jesus is divine is a heretical Jew. You don't lose your Judaism by accepting Jesus you just invoke the wrath of the community. As you should by accepting a man who walked the Earth as God. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

You can call Judaism dumb, I don't care. Go back to your own worldview where humanity (European humanity, that is) apparently only becomes intelligent during the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. Or is it later with the rise of atheism? I guess who needs religious thought when you've got Dawkins and Harris. The Middle East is stupid because they are religious but you are smart because you know there is no God. :up:

If Judaism is a dumb religion can you show me a smart one? If you think all religion is "fucking dumb" just say that :vomit:

You know so little about Judaism, yet judge so much. And surely if Judaism is "fucking dumb" then Islam must be really fucking dumb. So are there smart religions or is only secular atheism smart?

You don't believe that one's conscience could lead one to, for instance, retrieve an escaped slave or euthanize something or someone hastily (or not euthanize where it should be done)?

I honestly do believe people's consciences can lead them very astray (or to very different places morally). Today in the US we had many people openly supporting Hezbollah and Hamas out on the streets willing to risk arrest. Morality is different across time and place and these societies can foster very different "moral intuitions" or "consciences" among its inhabitants. Also people perceive reality in vastly different ways through factors such as IQ, education, and experience. So yes, I believe one's conscience can tell one to do vile things.

I make no claims about the existence of an afterlife. I simply state a belief in one tends to lead to heroism and martyrdom, while a conviction in the lack of one wouldn't really encourage such things.

Several of the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials claimed to be motivated by their conscience. They saw what they were doing as best for the fate of their country as well as humanity as a whole. IIRC Hannah Arendt in Eichmann in Jerusalem describes how Nazis were taught to e.g. resist the "temptation" to be merciful and instead dutifully perform their national mission. Nurture can lead one's conscience down very strange paths.

peacefully to what they believe is their ancestral home due to religious claims — Benkei

Not due to religious claims. It's due to history. The Arab muslims built their buildings on the ruins of Jewish civilization. Jews are the older strata.

Judaism - as a religion, as an ethnic identity, as a national identity (and yes it is all 3) -- forms in the land of Israel. Archaeology supports it. Anthropology supports it. Linguistic evidence supports it. I don't need to invoke God in this discussion.

Jews were expelled from their homeland under the Romans yet Jewish tradition has never abandoned its ties to it. Take the Shema -- a prayer ushered morning and night by observant Jews in Hebrew (a language formed in Israel) derived from the words of Deuteronomy (a text formed in Judea under King Josiah in the 7th century BC.) It's maintained all this time.

Not trying to be offensive, but where is the Palestinian history? Or they just assumed to be the original inhabitants? It's in the name, after all, guess it has to be true. /s

And since religion is made up bullshit — Benkei

Judaism predates modern notions of religion. Judaism is an evolving civilization. Its basis is in practice, not creed.

It's funny you say this while in the same post citing Ruth and Boaz as well as Joseph (!). You call it bullshit yet rely on Scripture to make your argument...

mixed race — Benkei

Which is fine. There are Jews from all over. Judaism is not a race. Genetic testing does bear out certain common markers among Jews. You can convert to Judaism. But could you become a Palestinian, Benkei?

Wonderful village people on the other side too. — ssu

If the shoe were on the other foot, and Arab muslim armies were prevailing over Israel, I would expect Israel to fight to the last man. Israel would qualify as an "enemy population" from the arab perspective. But I wouldn't expect the arabs to send in aid trucks or coddle the Israelis there. It would truly be genocide.

Sweden is experiencing considerable social upheaval at ~1.5 million migrants entering over the past decades and we've seen the far right take power. Such a thing would have been unheard of in such a civilized country years ago. But here we have it. Their education system has taken a dive and gang violence has shot up. Sweden is maybe 8% muslim? Israel is 20% and has been dealing with the issue for longer. The point being, mass immigration and such demographic differences will cause such attitudes to rise. Ireland is also seeing nativist marches.

It's not that those european countries are inherently superior -- it's that they don't deal with the same types of issues as Israel has, but right now Sweden is getting a taste of it. Try letting in a sizable majority of a population which doesn't accept your history or your claim to your own land and see how it goes. 59% of Israeli Arabs don't believe that a Jewish temple ever stood on the temple mount! The ruins are still standing!!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-attitudes-of-israeli-arabs-005-present

And, in the main, belief in "the hereafter" tends to devalue here & now — 180 Proof

Which can also lead to great heroism, such as with Maximilian Kolbe. If we knew, for certain, that this life is all there is why not just be epicureans? Why even plant trees that will take decades to grow?

Now I don't have personally anything against you, but I do find talking about an "enemy people" disturbing, even if you likely make a separation with "enemy soldiers" and "enemy people". — ssu

I'm not offended, and we can call them what you like, but the unfortunate fact is the majority of Palestinians -- according to polls -- are sympathetic to the events of 10/7. On 10/7, many palestinians civilians stormed in and murdered and raped their neighbors. We can call them "wonderful village people" for all I care, but treatment-wise, if I were a soldier or commanding them, I would advise extreme caution. I will concede that we don't need to use the term "enemy" especially if it leads to bad treatment.

Thanks! So I guess with recent events you're on team Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas now? Anything to beat Israel. Way to go! :rofl:

I can guarantee I know history in this region better than you. Jews are indigenous, thus zionism - jewish self-determination -- is decolonization from later colonizers.

Jews are indigenous to the region. You would know this if you knew the history of the region before 1948. But none of this apparently matters because you only think in terms of abstract notions like states, not actual, flesh and blood people.

And that's what it comes down to. You don't really appreciate or understand the region or the people. Religion is stupid for you, after all. And you're an intelligent, secular European who is far above any of this.

At least Begin was honest about it: there's no Israeli village that hasn't been build on an Arab ruin.

Israeli or Jewish? Wording is key here. Israel, as a modern state, is new. Israel as an entity is not. And I would remind you that al-Aqsa mosque was built on Jewish ruins. As were those later Arab buildings. The point is not that property shifts hands but rather how is shifts hands.



Read. Your. History.

Israel will help settle disputes involving families who were displaced in previous wars. Many Jewish families lost their homes in 1948 and Arabs took over so reclaiming that those homes would actually be decolonization. Zionism is decolonization. These cases go to court and the Arab families are compensated but they are treated individually.

Yes I will mourn when a 14 year old Jewish Israeli shepherd boy is abducted and stoned to death by knuckle draggers. And again one cannot colonise the land to which one is indigenous to. I understand that for you, as an outsider, everything just starts 75 years ago but not everyone shares your European, state-centered perspective of history.

You're guilty of genocide of the English language.

When everything is genocide to you, just response to an attack feels egregious.

I suppose the US committed genocide in Iraq. Or in Afghanistan. Innocents did die. Everything is genocide.

Yes, I do deeply hate and blame the organization that murders LGBTQ and tortures its own dissidents and indoctrinates its population with virulent anti-semitism and strives openly and boldly to destroy the Jewish people.

a) Hamas uses child fighters. Is the IDF allowed to kill a 16 year old firing a gun at it?
b) Hamas's figures are highly questionable.

No, see I’m the one against killing innocent civilians. — Mikie

Yet when this happens, as it does repeatedly to victims of islamic terror, you put yourself in a bind: Innocents will die when a country responds militarily.

To insist on zero civilian deaths = no military response permitted to murderous attacks.Especially when the attackers place themselves among the populace as they deliberately do.

Alter is indeed brilliant. One of the top in the field.

I have not read Spinoza but I'm sure I could gain something from it. I'm not partial to pantheism but I know Spinoza was brilliant. Heschel I would read but have not yet. Am currently reading Nahum Sarna's work on Genesis and Exodus. Recently read Shaye Cohen's "From Maccabees to the Mishnah" which is a good overview of later second temple Judaism, roughly around the time of Jesus.

The Gaza Health ministry only has data -- names, ages, etc. on 22k of the 33k claimed. Israel claims to have killed 13k hamas.

Palestinians are not the enemy, but I do see them as an enemy population in the same way that a highly pro-nazi town in 1945 would have been. The citizens themselves aren't inherently evil and deserving of death, but I would be very cautious of them. This is just based on statistics -- 70% of palestinians sympathize with the 10/7 attacks. Israel still allows the transport of aid and medical treatment to palestinians. Israel can provide aid but the reality leaves one skeptical of "winning hearts and minds." Yet Israel is and should treat them with basic decency. Soldiers who blasted Jewish prayers over a loudspeaker of a defeated city were reprimanded.

Did you hear about the 14 year Israeli shepherd boy abducted and murdered in the West Bank yesterday? Righteous palestinian rage, am I right? Those Jews Israelis have no right to that land! The Israelis smash us and oppress us for decades, what's the harm in one abduction and murder? Who even cares?

BuT wE aRe OpPrEsSeD

Does Israel have a right to pursue the killers or no? If yes Israeli may end up killing more than 1, if no then you proclaim Israel has no right to self defense. You have no good response to this one.

Are you an American, Mikie? Would you be a fair target for a terrorist angry at America's actions?

What larger death tolls?

War in Ukraine has larger death tolls, but it hasn't such high amounts of civilian deaths or death of children. And let's remember how few people are in Gaza and that this war has been going on for a shorter period time (aside how long the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on). Sudan has 46 million people.

Question for you, Moses: Would you be OK if the Israeli army continued it's fight against Hamas, but did allow freely food to be transported to the civilian population (which would be naturally inspected)?

The US did this in similar battles it fought in Iraq, even if it clearly understood that some of the food would end up in the bellies of the enemy combatants, yet decided that to starve civilians would be more counterproductive. And it tried to kill the insurgents by other means than hunger. As the US fought Al Qaede and Isis, it did also try to look after the civilian population when the battle was still ongoing. Or is there something wrong in the way the US did it? — ssu

Congo, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan. Gaza Health ministry has revised the death tolls downwards to ~22k with 13k of those being Hamas according to the IDF by the way. So roughly 8-9k civilians dead and keep in mind Hamas's rockets often malfunction and end up hitting their own populace.

I don't have any problem in principle with aid. The issue of obviously distribution. It is being taken by Hamas which resells it as a much higher price and will waste much of it. Last time I checked there was a several hundred truck log jam in the region regarding aid trucks. Israel can let the trucks in, which it is has, but distribution run by the UN is a different matter.

I definitely don't think Israel is trying to starve Gaza. Sources internal to Gaza have much more control over distribution patterns than Israel -- an outside government. And if ~70% of Afghani civilians supported al-Qaeda I think the US's treatment would have been very different. I would treat palestinians like an enemy population -- not abusively, but with definite caution. On 10/7 many of the perpetrators were regular palestinian civilians presented with an opportunity. I would be extremely weary of this population.

What I mean by "universalism" is, imo, revealed in Jesus's dialogues/arguments with the Pharisees. I found that Jesus's views were often (but not always) grounded in the early books of Genesis. Gen 1-11 is universal/applies to all of mankind. Gen 12-50 is particular to Israel. Just something that I noticed whether it relates to marriage, food purity, or the sabbath among others.

Jesus surely did consort with the common folk; he consorted with the lowest of the low. Tax collection in antiquity was a nasty institution yet Jesus did not shun them. Jesus shuns no one. That's what is unique about the character and places him in the "very good" or "very bad" camp. Traditional Jewish sages caution us against associating with the wicked. But I also believe the quote reveals he was a man of appetites and not like the ascetic John the Baptist.

I'm fascinated though in the ways that that Jesus helps socialize one. He is the ideal in many ways, if not all ways. So he is potentially something to emulate. I found that through internalizing at least some of his teachings the person becomes transformed and this is what I find so fascinating.

I'm Jewish (because my mom is) and raised conservative and reform. Now I'm drawn towards reconstructionism but it's a small movement and not particularly well established. I am not particularly observant and have not stepped foot in a synagogue for years. I'm drawn towards this movement because I read Robert Alter's biblical translation and Alter is likely in the reconstructionist camp. There's a greater emphasis on literature than on theology in his commentary.

I tend to get the sense that every Jew (or every believer) is a little heretical in their own way. Some just don't believe in God, some believe the Bible is all fabricated, some believe in a different form of God like Spinoza's pantheism. For me it's being weirdly drawn to Jesus.

I read Jesus without any Christian background (obviously) and I just can't get over the strangeness of the character. He is downright bizarre in a way that makes him either very good or very bad. I know of no other character who jumps off the page like Jesus and I'm drawn to many of the parables and lessons (I truly believe internalizing his lessons will make one very attractive!). But Jesus never seems to care about his followers' physical life or well-being. It's like if doing one of Jesus's teachings gets you killed quickly it's like "oh well, he died in Christ!" Jesus burns bright but dies young in proper accord with his teachings.

If you can condemn 10/7 as an atrocity it then presumably follows that Israel is justified in striking back at Hamas. So you're ok with Israel using military force against Hamas? Or do you see it as a law enforcement matter?

Now it's just a matter of how.

Fortunately for me, I don’t belong to the simplistic Nickelodeon morality crew.

Yes, the simplistic nickelodeon morality crew that condemns those who breach a neighbor's fence, enters his home, murders a family and sets fire to a baby in a crib.

Nice to know that, like, you're, like, so philosophical and smart and you're able to see the nuance and shades of grey in that. So educated.

I don't think that this is our biggest problem. Public discourse simply can be annoying some times. — ssu

I don't think it's our biggest problem it's just pervasive. It's more than discourse. Church and synagogue services get interrupted here frequently by the usual suspects. It usually gets swept under the rug. I can only imagine the hell that would break loose if people started doing this to mosques. I don't care much if it were just discourse but now it's becoming action. Jews are the canary in the coalmine.

I agree that self-criticism is good.

You know the analogy of the frog in hot water? If you throw a frog into hot water he'll quickly escape, but if you just slowly turn up the heat he'll end up boiling himself to death slowly. The modern West is predicated on double standards. We can freely criticise certain groups without shame/stigma but not others. Only certain types of pride are allowed.

The West is not well-equipped to deal with such issues. It is a case where the water temperature is slowly creeping up as opposed to a 9/11 or a Pearl Harbor. It is an issue that stems from the core western values of tolerance and religious freedom and to challenge those is to challenge our Enlightenment-era heritage. I would say that Biden has flooded the country with migrants, but that would presuppose that Biden is in charge when the country knows he is not.

I can't help but shake the sense that the US is in decline. Maybe it can be reversed. School absences have roughly doubled over the past 5 years. You walk into stores and the items are locked up. Apparently "stealing is wrong" is no longer something we collectively agree on. It didn't use to be like this.

And of course you have the religious zealots on the other side also, naturally, which people here don't support even if they are critical about Israel's actions... — ssu

Today a 10 month old Israeli boy, Shalhevet Pass, was shot in the head by a Palestinian terrorist. The secular Palestinian Authority will of course be paying (has paid?) the martyrs bounty of $300k USD for the deed. It's not just the Islamists.

But resistance, right?

There's few mosques here and very few Jews where I live. And people are quite well behaved. — ssu

Look around you to Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, and also the US to a slightly lesser extent. France would be another case.

So you assume fundamentalists make a country strong? I beg to differ. In fact, I find the whole narrative of "the West being weak", especially "weaker than it's enemies" to be a load of bullshit. — ssu

A country needs something that its citizens can sign onto. Some type of common value system. A sense of citizenship, a common purpose. What is it that unites us? A collective guilt in the sins of the West?

There's a plethora of violence, vandalism and a lot of emotions. Yet it's still politics. — ssu

When was the last time you saw a crowd of angry Jews surrounding and protesting in front of a mosque and disrupting their services? Where are the Canadian or American or European Jews going into Muslim areas and vandalizing their businesses and assaulting people? Where are the mass pro-Israel marches disturbing public order leaving behind a trail of destruction and violence?

Christianity is weak in the West. We believe in nothing. Western birth rates are low.

But don't point it out or draw attention to it. We wouldn't want to do that.