Much in the same way that Fitch’s paradox shows that the knowability and non-omniscience principles are incompatible, direct realism and scientific realism are incompatible: if the mind-independent world is as the Standard Model says it is then it isn’t as we ordinary perceive it to be and vice-versa.

So pick your poison: either indirect realism or scientific instrumentalism. — Michael

The distinction between direct vs. direct realism is non-sensical when you include the experience as part of the world your experiencing, and understand that effects carry information about their causes. The (right or wrong) interpretation of that causal relationship is what creates the distinction between direct and indirect. A mirage is exactly what you'd expect to experience given the nature of light and and it's interaction with an eye-brain system when you arrive at the correct interpretation and not the false one (interpreting it as a pool of water).

Direct realism doesn’t appear to work under any scenario. — Michael

Do you not have direct access to your experience and isn't your experience part of the world as much as what your experience is of?

You still seem to know what the case is even though your experience is indirect. So what's missing? What's the difference between indirect and direct if you are still able to know what the case is in either case if not the interpretation itself?

Why is it the words and not the events that inform us?" ?

Or "why are the words still about the events?" ?
— bongo fury

The former.

There seems to be chain of causality - events -> (various perception processes) -> (various executive process) -> writing words to convey the events -> looking at words conveying the event -> (various perception processes) -> (various linguistic process) -> (various executive processes) -> (working memory storage) -> (more executive functions and long term memory processes - collectively called 'learning').

There seems a lot of stages between words and learning, so if stages between is what leads to the charge of indirectness, then the we indirectly learn from the words too. — Isaac

Right. Reading words informs us as much as reading someone's behavior, or the color of an apple, or the sound of waves crashing, etc. Scribbles and utterances (can be) just as informative as any other visual and auditory experience. The "philosophers" on this forum tend to separate language from the world much like theists separate humans from the world. That is a mistake.

My experience doesn’t show me the nature of the world independent of experience, the Standard Model and other scientific theories do. — Michael

But how if all you have is your experience? How did we come to have scientific theories of how the world is independent of experience if not by some experience? You seem to be saying that you have knowledge of the world independent of experience. How is that possible unless you're omniscient?

Scientific realism isn’t a given, and even if it were true, the world as described by the Standard Model is very unlike the world as seen in everyday experience, — Michael

How do we know the difference between our experience of the world and the way the world is independent of our experience? You must have had some experience to even make this claim, so there must be some experience that has informed you how the world is independent if your experience. Or your experience is sufficient to know how the world is independent of your own experience. There must be something in your experience that informs you of how the world is unlike your experience, but how could that be if not by some experience?

Seems to me that you've misused language.

There are two philosophical points here. The first is that, since the "unseen" world causes what we see, we can and have used those causes to grasp the nature of that unseen world. Science did what Kant imagined to be impossible. — Banno

Yup. Effects, like a visual experiences, carry information about their causes, like the object and the light reflected off the object and into your eye. Information is the relationship between cause and effect.

I might have a better offer. I might forget. I might change my mind and conclude that I am wasting my time. — Fooloso4

Which was my point that there would be other necessary, non-accidental conditions that led to different conditions. You're proving my point, not yours.

You're confusing what was, is, or will be the case with your ignorance of what was, is, or will be the case.

Wanting to does not mean I have to. Intending to does not mean I would necessarily end up doing what I intend to do. — Fooloso4

But what would it mean that you wouldn't necessarily end up doing what you intended if not that there was some other necessary condition that prevented you from doing it? If there were no other conditions preventing you from doing it, wouldn't you be doing it? If not, then you never intended to do it in the first place. Do any of your posts appear on this screen without you having intended to post them?

What is not the case exists in the logical space of what is possible. Logic is transcendental. It makes possible not only states of affairs but the possibility to think of states of affairs. We cannot think illogically — Fooloso4

How would you know what is possible if everything that is the case is an accident? What is not the case isn't necessarily possible. What is not the case is just as much probable as improbable, because you have no evidence to support the probability nor improbability. There is no evidence for what is not the case. So if what you mean by "logical space" is "imaginary" then I guess we agree.

Entities are patterns of properties.
— Harry Hindu

At a stretch. Ok. If mental entities include linguistic conventions, then no one counseled dispensing with them. — bongo fury

Not at all. You recognize entities, like your pet or your friend, by their pattern of properties - patterns of sensory properties - their color, shape, the sound of their voice, the feel of their touch, their smell, etc., just as you are able to distinguish between coffee and water, but the pattern of color, smell, taste, etc.

My question was simply what is left if we can dispense with mental entities, and you've ended up showing that we cannot dispense with mental entities. Linguistic conventions are patterns of scribbles and sounds - mental entities.

Note 'extraspatiotermporal' which in plain language means 'not in time and space'. So these kinds of 'objects' are not existent in the sense that phenomena are existent, as phenomena exist in time and space. — Wayfarer

but it does exist as a phenomena of your imagination and your imagination is just another fact of the world, or what is the case.

Ok, so in a limited (physicalist) sense you could say that extraspatiotemporal objects are not determinate, but in a general (mathematical) sense they are just as well-defined and hence determinate as spatiotemporal mathematical objects. — litewave

Like I said, they know what the edges are and what is fuzzy.

An indeterminate thing is a thing with no definition - not worthy of contemplating (even if you could), much less talk about - so a misuse of language.

Obviously it happened. It is not, however, necessary that this would happen thought. His notebooks might never have been published. It is not necessary that I quoted him or that I discuss him or post on this forum or that forum exist.

"Wanting to share" is, as you say, something I wanted to do. It is a choice not a necessity. — Fooloso4

I don't see how you could have shared it if you didn't want to, or intend to.

What about:
"The world is determined by the facts, and by these being all the
facts.

For the totality of facts determines both what is the case, and
also all that is not the case"

It appears that the world is necessarily determined by all the facts.

It's strange to say that all the facts determine what is both the case and not the case. What is not the case can only exist in a mind as imaginary. Imaginings and lies are what are not the case. All facts determine only what is the case. The totality of facts could only determine what isn't the case when minds evolved to imagine and lie.

What is the relation between language and real, nameable objects? This is the question of the basis of the concept of an object or category of objects. Doesn’t the mathematical determination follow upon the linguistic-semantic determination? Are you assuming that language is referential: we assign a semantic meaning and then associate it with a linguistic token? How do I know that my token means the same thing as your token? Is there a fact of the matter that will settle such disputes of meaning and sense? Do the empirical facts of the world ( or dictionary definitions) intervene to settle these matters? — Joshs

It seems to me that whenever anyone uses language they intend to convey information to others. The fact of the matter is the relation the speaker or writer has between the sounds and scribbles they make and the idea they intended to convey. What that might be is anyone's guess, but if you speak the same language as the speaker or writer, somehow, your chances of interpreting that relationship is substantially better than if you didn't speak their language. This must mean something, or else I can speak Italian and say that it's Vietnamese without any fact of the matter to stop me - if my intent was to cause confusion. If my intent was to communicate, then it would help to know the language of my audience.

lol, what did you mean by quoting Wittgenstein? For you to quote Witt, Witt had to write something that you found meaning in an wanted to share with us. So how did you come to quote Witt if the compulsion of Witt writing something, you finding meaning in it and you wanting to share, did not happen?

Not an entity, that's the thing. A linguistic regularity. A pattern. — bongo fury

Entities are patterns of properties.

No. It means that the way things are is not by necessity. — Fooloso4

"Accident" is not a synonym of unnecessary. "Accident" is not the correct term to convey what you actually mean. So it is necessary to use the appropriate terms if your goal is to communicate your ideas efficiently. It would also seem necessary to learn a language before you can use it. If those are necessary causes for communication to happen then why wouldn't other relations in the world not be causal in the same way? What's so special about language use when language use is simply another process in the world?

Convention? — bongo fury

...a mental entity

Thought has a transcendental logical structure. You cannot think illogically (3.03) The relations of simple objects share this logical structure. The movement of tectonic plates is accidental.

6.37 There is no compulsion making one thing happen because another has happened. The only necessity that exists is logical necessity.

6.41 For all that happens and is the case is accidental. — Fooloso4

The accidental only makes sense in light of the determined or predicted. Saying that something is accidental implies that there is a way things are supposed to be but something unintended happened that made things different. Accidents only come about when something was predicted to happen but didn't. If you dont make a prediction then there can be no accidents.

:up:
Even when philosophers say that things are fuzzy around the edges, it seems that they have determined what edges are and what is fuzzy.

Language, art, music, etc.
— bongo fury

How are language, art and music NOT mental entities? Dont you mean ink marks, paint blotches and oscillating air molecules? It seems that those would be the non-mental entities and language, art and music would be the mental intenties as that is what certain ink marks, paint blotches and oscillating air molecules are arbitrarily interpreted as being. Arbitrary interpretations are mental entities.

For instance, how do we non-korean-speaking people know that Korean is a language? It just looks like scribbles and strange sounds being made by some people to us. How can you explain the difference in how different people interpret different scribbles and utterances if not by referring to mental entities?

It seems to me that if Witt were alive today he'd contradict himself again just as his Investigations contradicted his Tractus. One could argue that philosophy is simply language use and if language use is a game then philosophy has been relegated to a game of Scribbles (not Scrabble). It does seem that way when reading many of the posts on this forum. I'm more interested in what you're referring to with scribbles, or what is the case in the world. If that isn't how you're using your scribbles, then you're really saying anything useful.

and being that thoughts are part of the world thoughts are what is the case as much as any other part of the world. The question is how are thoughts, which is one case, be about another entirely different case (not thoughts), like the movement of tectonic plates, if not by some form of causation (energy transfer, information transfer, etc.)?

If they're about things in the world, they're fine. It's mainly philosophy that tries to comment on the world from a vantage point external to it. — Tate

So does science. Science and Philosophy are about things. Is the idea of multiple universes and dark matter in the domain of philosophy or science? Are they mental entities as bongo put it, or something else?

The difference seems to be in the amount of observable evidence there is and its predictive power.

If evidence and predictive power are not mental entities then what are they? Are they something in the world?

That metaphysical claims are nonsense. — Tate

Depends on the claim. Maybe the issue is saying that you can claim any metaphysical position. Seems that you can only ponder or hypothesize metaphysical positions. A claim would change it from being metaphysical to scientific, no? Are scientific claims nonsense? Why?

That's the kind of reason I (and I claimed also W) counselled dispensing with mental entities.

I was going along with it (entities included) out of interest, while I thought I could follow. Awareness too, and I'm out of here. — bongo fury

If we dispense with mental entities then what is left?

I wonder what role does awareness play here. Is awareness a feeling or thought? In being aware of your feelings and thoughts are you feeling your feelings and/or thinking your thoughts?

It gained traction with advancements in the natural sciences which heavily depended on observation and repeatability as a ground for establishing fact verses hypothesis or beliefs. — Benj96

And then lost traction when science discovered that the world is not as it appears and that observers might actually influence what is observed.

To my mind, methodologically speaking, materialism (facticity, data) is a subset of physicalism (modeling) which is subset of naturalism (explanation). — 180 Proof

So physicalism, materialism and naturalism are concepts. How are concepts physical, material or natural? How do physical things and concepts interact, or how do physical things come to possess concepts?

As a metaphysics, it's arbitrary, even scientistic. However, as a methodology (criterion) for eliminaing "nonphysical" concepts from the construction of explanatory models of phenomena, physicalism is demonstrably more useful than any non/anti-physicalist alternative. — 180 Proof

Sounds circular. What does it even mean for a concept to be physical vs. Non-physical? Are you talking about the ontology of concepts, or what the concepts are about? If the latter how do concepts come to be about anything? Is aboutness physical or non-physical?

Interesting argument. I didn't ask or answer any such questions in 4th grade. I think most of us live unexamined lives, derive value systems unsystematically through experience and socialisation, holding onto views that are an amalgam of fallacies, prejudices and models of reality which can't be justified. I think the point is ignorance is bliss, truth seeking doesn't ususally make any real difference to survivability or prosperity and people have no idea how much of what they think is deficient. — Tom Storm

Everyone examines their lives at some point - usually in the late teens - early twenties. They question their existence and their purpose. The real question is how much of an examination does your life need before you can get on with just living it? Philosophy seems to have shown that you can never know anything, or that you have to start with some assumptions. So it would be pointless to keep asking questions for which you will never get an answer.

Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade.
— Harry Hindu

What are those questions? — Jackson

What are propositions? What is a language? What is science? What are numbers? etc.

When we agree on new uses for a term we are essentially creating a new context with which we use the term.
— Harry Hindu

Sure. Cherry-picking cases of past usage that help to sell our new theory.

Weren't Newton & co. rather cheekily re-purposing psychological words like force ("courage, fortitude"), inertia ("unskillfulness, ignorance"), moment ("importance")? — bongo fury

They weren't cherry-picking past usage. Read your sentence again. They were re-purposing words, which are scribbles and utterances, for new usages, just like we re-purposed bumps to use as words as braille, and arm and hand movements as sign-language.

To finish the preface: the philosopher believes that the ordinary person is either unfamiliar with the distinction or fails to apply it properly, and that if they did they too would be in the pickle philosophers are, unable to bridge the gap. Most people just don't notice, or don't understand what a big deal this is, that's the mantra of philosophy. (The other example that leaps to mind also comes from Hume: how do you know the sun will rise tomorrow?) — Srap Tasmaner

Sure, there are some uses of language that appear to be habit more than a clear understanding of what it actually means to say such things, but I've seen philosophers fall prey to the habit just as much as ordinary people. Assumptions make up the the foundation from where we build our understanding of the world. Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade. That isn't to say that there aren't some higher level assumptions that we take for granted that can't be questioned - like does God exist - but then ordinary people can be just as concerned about whether god exists (like when they are suffering at the hand of an unfair world) as a philosopher can.

Philosophers: Ordinary folk think too less.
Ordinary folk: Philosophers think too much.

We never hit the sweet spot betwixt deficiency & excess now do we? We're always swinging, pendulum-like, back and forth between extremes. The aurea mediocritas isn't easy to either attain or maintain. — Agent Smith

Speak for yourself. :smirk:

Philosophers: folk that use language like its a game or art
Ordinary folk: folk that use language to communicate

But a material object cannot literally be a part of a proposition and therefore cannot be part of a fact. — Art48

Depends on what you mean by "proposition". Propositions can be ink marks on a piece of paper, or vibrating air molecules when speaking.

In everyday usage, sure. — bongo fury

I don't get this distinction between everyday, ordinary usage and some other usage. Usage depends on context. Why should we consider a philosophical context any different than any other context? The idea of ordinary usage takes into account these various contexts. What is ordinary about the usage is that it is ordinary to use the terms that way in those contexts. Any unordinary usage would be a misuse of terms in that context. When we agree on new uses for a term we are essentially creating a new context with which we use the term.

Clearly an absurd conclusion. — Andrew M

Just another way of saying that it is a misuse of language.

There isn't an epistemic difference (i.e., either way, one is correct or mistaken about whether it is raining). However there is a semantic difference. With the "knowledge changes" position you can know it is raining when it isn't, on ordinary usage you can't. — Andrew M

Yet you did assert that you know when you didn't with ordinary usage. You just know something different now.

If you want to know whether it is raining then looking out the window provides good evidence. You can say that you know it, but be mistaken, as with any claim. You can also know that you know. That's just how the logic of the usage plays out. As mentioned, the standard for claiming knowledge isn't Cartesian certainty. So its possible to think that you know that you know when you don't. — Andrew M

As I already pointed out, you being mistaken is good evidence that you can still be mistaken with any knowledge claim, which is to say that you can never know that you know. So thinking of knowledge as a changing interpretation based on new good evidence resolves the issue. There can be right and wrong interpretations. A wrong interpretation is not no interpretation, just a different one based on the good evidence one had at the time. Given that evidence you had at the time, it would be a valid interpretation. So either we make knowledge a synonym of interpretation or we just omit the word from usage because it would be useless. Using knowledge as a synonym for interpretation is how we use the word in ordinary usage anyway when we take into account how we used the term, "knowledge" in the past as well as now when we say we know but can't know that we know thanks to the good evidence that our interpretations have changed in the past.

The problem of induction is also good evidence that some observation is not good evidence to support an assertion of knowledge in that it seems to call into question observations as justification for forming knowledge.

You could be wrong again and again. But that's unlikely for a given case, since you require good evidence for each iteration of the claim. The space of possibilities rapidly diminishes. Consider what it would take to be wrong that the Earth orbits the Sun. — Andrew M

Which addresses my question that I asked before about how many observations need to be made before we can claim knowledge which you responded:

But "every possible observation" is not the standard for making knowledge claims or forming beliefs. — Andrew M

How would you know that the space of possibilities "rapidly diminishes" without knowing how many observations need to be made? You are claiming to know something that you couldn't possibly know or else you would have made the correct interpretation in the beginning if you knew how many observations you needed to assert knowledge.

Our observations about the movement of the Earth took place on the Earth and out in space. What if we are able to move into another dimension and observe the movement of the Earth - could we say that it still orbits the Sun? "Orbit" might not make any sense when observed from another dimension. We keep trying dislocate ourselves from reality when making observations as if we can make an observation outside of reality. One QM interpretation is that observers have an impact on what they observe, so how do we know that the orbit of the Earth around the Sun is a product of just the Earth and the Sun, or also us as observers.

It can be a good reason at the time. It may no longer be a good reason in the light of new evidence. Also there need be no infinite regress, as suggested by the orbit example. At some level of evidence you expect to converge on the truth. — Andrew M

Which is to say that the interpretation we had was valid given the reasons we had at the time. Our interpretation can change, but that doesn't mean that we never had an interpretation in the past.

It is good evidence. If it weren't, then essentially no knowledge claims could ever be made (as Descartes discovered). Yet we do have knowledge. However what constitutes good evidence at one time may no longer be sufficient in the light of new evidence. If you become aware that your brother sprayed the window, then you retract your former claim, since the fact that you looked out the window is no longer a good reason to believe it was raining (though it was a good reason before). — Andrew M

Which is the same as saying that it was a valid reason for arriving at that interpretation. Knowledge claims can be made if we define knowledge as an interpretation (which I have already shown that the ordinary usage of knowledge is a synonym for interpretation). So we do have interpretations/knowledge. What constitutes good reasons for one interpretation does not qualify as good reasons for a different interpretation. If you become aware of new evidence then you amend your interpretation. This doesn't disqualify that looking out the window is good evidence for interpreting that it is raining. Most of the time it is, and still is even though you were mistaken once before.

Read Wittgenstein’s Philosophical Investigations. — Michael

As if Wittgenstein is the prophet of propositions. :roll:

Will philosophy ever recover from the damage that Wittgenstein has dealt it?

Read a dictionary.

What is life? I know that I’m alive and that a rock isn’t. But there’s no proper understanding of what life is, with over a hundred proposed definitions. — Michael

Which is to say that we have definitions of life that allow us to distinguish it from things that are not alive. All I'm asking is what those distinctions are. If you can't even answer that simple question then it does not follow that a chicken is not a proposition. A proposition could be anything, which makes your arguments non-sensical.

Philosophy has degenerated into a game of scribbles and utterances. Philosophers scribble and utter like they know what they are doing, but when you ask them what they are doing, they don't know.

I said I can't give you a definition of "proposition", just as I can't give you a definition of "number". But I know which things are numbers, which things are propositions, and which things are neither.

And I know that 2 + 2 = 4.

And I know that modus tollens is a valid rule of inference.

And I know that chickens are animals.

That's all that matters for this discussion. — Michael

What is a definition if not the suggested, or commonly understood way of using the term? What you're saying is that you don't know how to use the term, proposition, so it doesn't follow that you can know how they relate using formal logic.

What does it mean to know that 2+2=4 - that you've learned how to copy someone else's behavior typing that string of scribbles?

Chickens are animals and propositions are...? You didn't need to get in-depth and metaphysical with your description of a chicken, so why would you think I'd be asking for something different when describing a proposition? Seems like you just want to avoid the question by being purposely obtuse.

It's easy. Propositions and numbers are scribbles that refer to states of affairs. No metaphysics needed.

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said "I don't know" and now you're saying that you do. Which is it? If you know, how do you know? Using AndrewM's qualification for knowledge as having "good evidence", what "good evidence" do you have that you know what propositions are well enough to talk about them?

How can you tell the difference between a proposition and a chicken if you don't know what a proposition is? How are a chicken and a proposition different? You said that you know that, so you should be able to answer that question.

I can't give you any meaningful definition of "proposition", just as I can't give you any meaningful definition of "number". I can give you examples of things which are either numbers or not numbers, and examples of things which are either propositions or not propositions.

But, again, this has nothing to do with Fitch's paradox. If you want to talk about what propositions are then start another discussion. — Michael

That's not necessary. You've already shown that you have no idea what you're talking about, which is the point I was trying to make. Thanks. :smile:

I don't need to have some kind of in-depth metaphysical understanding of the nature of language and reasoning to make use of formal logic, just as I don't need to have some kind of in-depth metaphysical understanding of the nature of numbers to do maths. — Michael

I wasn't asking for an in-depth metaphysical understanding of the nature of language. It's not necessary to answer a simple question. You said, "I don't know". I'm just asking for a simple definition of "proposition". What do you know, if anything, of what a proposition is? You have to have some understanding of the nature of numbers to do maths, or else what are you doing when you do maths?. :roll:

Formal logic is concerned with the relationship between propositions. — Michael

You keep using this term, "proposition" that you've you admitted to not knowing what they are. If you don't know what propositions are, then how can you even know what kind of relationship exists between them? You just continue to post scribbles on this screen and asserting that there is a relationship between them, but don't know what the members of that relationship actually are.

Is a proposition a relationship - a relationship between some scribbles or utterances and what those scribbles and utterances are about? So formal logic would be the relationship between one string of scribbles and what that string of scribbles is about and another string of scribbles and what that string of scribbles is about. It seems to me that you'd first have to determine what the scribbles are about (like an assertion of what is the case, like the cat being on the mat) before understanding the relationship between them.

We don't. But "every possible observation" is not the standard for making knowledge claims or forming beliefs. Good evidence is. If good counter-evidence emerges, then we should change our minds and retract the former claim. — Andrew M

Which isn't any different than saying knowledge is an interpretation that changes with new evidence - not that you never had it.

What qualifies as good evidence? Isn't there a chance that good counter-evidence emerges later? If yes, then you can never say that you possess knowledge. You would never know that you know or you would know something unknowable.

You can look out the window at the moment your trickster brother sprays the window with a hose.
— Harry Hindu

In which case you wouldn't know it was raining, you would just think you did. — Andrew M

Yet we asserted that we did know and were wrong, which is good evidence that you could be wrong again, and again, and again - hence no such thing as knowledge unless we define knowledge as an interpretation that changes - not that you never had it. So, using your "good evidence" definition, you have good evidence that you can't ever possess good evidence. Your argument defeats itself.

Is it possible to believe a truth? How would that be different than to know a truth?
— Harry Hindu

Yes. To know it also requires good reason, or evidence, or justification. — Andrew M

As I pointed out, it is very possible that your good reason or evidence isn't actually a good reason or evidence, and you only find that out after you get good reason or evidence, yet it is very possible that your good reason or evidence isn't actually good reason or evidence, and you only find that out...,etc. It's an infinite regress.

How do we ever know that we have all the evidence necessary to assert knowledge over belief?
— Harry Hindu

Your question assumes a standard of infallibility or Cartesian certainty. But you can say that you know it is raining (or not) by simply looking out the window. That's the relevant standard for making knowledge claims. — Andrew M

No. It is you that assumes a standard of infallibility or Cartesian certainty by saying that "good evidence" is what is needed to possess knowledge. I'm simply asking you to define what that means, if not that "good evidence" is a state of infallibility (knowing the truth). I already pointed out that looking out the window is not good evidence because your brother could be spraying the window with a hose.

It seems to me that knowledge can only ever be a present or past state, never a future state. We can know what we know and know what we knew but never know what we will know.

EDIT:
Now that I think about it, it seems that knowledge is only a present state, kind of like the current fashion trend.

Another way to think of this is in terms of Ryle's achievement verbs. We can believe or claim that it is raining and be mistaken but we can't know that it is raining and be mistaken, since to know that it is raining is to be correct and for good reason (e.g., we looked out the window). — Andrew M

This is circular.

You can look out the window at the moment your trickster brother sprays the window with a hose.

Is it possible to believe a truth? How would that be different than to know a truth? How do we ever know that we have all the evidence necessary to assert knowledge over belief?