@Gregory In their origins I agree the three abraham religions are satanic. Same with any ideology that subordinates human freedom to some abstract first Authority. Ditto Platonism marxism statism.
But,one must realise many adherents to these faiths or ideologies do not follow their faith in its extreme origin but follow a sanitised super diet coke liberal or person version. They can be of value. People even make use of Plato Nietzsche and heidegger so why not!

@Hippyhead Well,this principle definately applies to humans.
I'm always careful not to make a principle of compromise or ",the mean or middle way is the truth".
There should never even have been a serious concept of determinism. Even for matter it lacks nuance.

@Ciceronianus the White When "philosophy" stoops to this level it's no wonder folks marvel at the lack of common sense and real Logic of academia.

@Hippyhead I fail to see how saying a person has free will and is in charge of their mind isnt eminent common sense? Nor is it in any way exaggerated. There are varying subjectivities but everyone is responsible for their actions.

I have to agree with @Pantagruel here. We are the general of our minds. It's your attitude to your ability to Express your freedom that is the prime factor. Of course as said above traumatic experiences can hinder you but still it's only your own personal responsibility and attitude that stops you being freer. @Hippyhead

This is a great topic! Real philosophy is the accurate description and analysis of reality. Phenomenology.
I think you can do both without seeing or replicating the sound internally. Its interesting when your talking with someone you dont have to visualise or replicate if they refer to the items you mentioned,but you CAN depending on the context. @Daniel

@Hippyhead I do agree the thread could be split from the original post. I did leave a message to the first poster and hope everything is good. Maybe the determinism discussion might help them?
I feel the concept of determinism or laws of nature as is commonly used is very misleading and inaccurate.
But I get some people use it as a rough shorthand or jargon.

@Pantagruel Yep! I suspect science philosophy and religion have scared these folks from expressing the fact they actually express!
Its like asking for proof that I exist.
The bedrock of logic has to be our free ability to think and decide. Seems extremely obvious....

Determinism is just an incoherent dogma. A restatement of the religious doctrine of predestination.
If things can only be one fixed way,how to account for diversity movement creativity novelty art?
If a mind can ponder over the question are we free or determined and decide or Express we Are free then what happened to determinism? Determinism cannot explain Individuality or diversity.
And causation,if everything has something causing its behaviour what is the first cause and why could there not be multiple causes?
And how do you identify primary causes? Obviously through the
Individual intellect. Thus showing the intellect is a primary
cause of understanding. Irrefutably so.

@ep3265 Do i understand you are saying if it cant be measured it cant exist?
What measuring tape are you using?

@TheMadFool Duration alone? What is duration alone?
All things have duration. And living beings perceive duration.

@TheMadFool I regard duration/time as movement/change. Movement and change are physical properties.

@TheMadFool No. I'm categorizing them as similiar.
Thoughts do have duration and intensity.
The separation of thoughts and feelings is similiar to the difference between slow running and fast running. Legit,but both still a type of movement running.

Up to you with implication you dont care if you dont agree with arguement as constructed. Sheesh! The rhethoric of the virtue signaller. Trying to guilt people for being able to walk!

@Banno Why the dichotomy? You can say it would be good to have a lift. Nothing to do with a person being able to use stairs being "privileged". This is just a sneaky way of categorizing people hierarchically and virtue signalling.
And who identifies "privilege", the govt academics and leftists? No thanks,the idea of rich elites dictating categories of humans Is hypocritical and extremely discriminatory. An appeal to emotion by elites....
You donating your next pay packet to lifts banno?

@TheMadFool Thoughts and feelings do have intensity and duration. Sound and pressure if you include speaking.

A lottery ticket and the winner is determined! Wow!
A dice throw is determined? Counterfactuals regret or deciding choosing are all meaningless language!!!
Beware of dogmatic words and concepts that have no relation to human experience,and I daresay Common Sense.

@Hippyhead. So what is the extent to which or the matters in which you do have free will?

@Hippyhead How was it established before you were born?
I can't change that i WILL but that is more a linguistic misunderstanding. My nature my innate desire IS to Will.
Saying I can't change that is moot. I Dont want to. In fact its shows the absoluteness of the will in that it cannot be thwarted.
It's like saying to someone you cant will to be unhappy therefore you are Determined and cant change your desire to be happy. An abuse of language I think.

@Augustusea Excellent irrelevant aphorism. But you were fated to say that so you get no credit. :cool:

@Hippyhead Our Will is not determined at all.
What to you would be an example of something determined?

@Hippyhead :up:
The most salient point is if we have no control there is no point to philosophy or science.
But even determinists live as if they have control which of course everybody has.
Can you put the bins out honey? No. Why not dear? I'm determined not to! Its fated! Its science sugar... Divorce.

@Augustusea You are getting owned thats why you CHOOSE to back out. In no way can you defend your assertion of determinism,nor anyone else.
You had the illusion of doing so but actually did not?
Solved your problem. Determinism is an illusion.
I note early in the thread you mentioned how a person can be angry at suffering but has to DECIDE how to be angry.
Aka,he wills the how,he decides. You cant escape the fact you have choice and will.

@Augustusea Socratic method! Ah,the appeal to authority. If somebody says the sky is a pink elephant I dont have to refute him. Ditto your assertions are thus.
And you dont explain how you can choose to respond further or not. Just self refuting pedantic guff.
I suppose you cant raise your hand as a demonstration
or choose to blow out candles at your birthday either.
Ludicrous.

@Augustusea I chose my own breakfast. If your logic says no then it's not logic but dogma. Tell me,how do.you learn anything new if your determined? Is a boxing match determined?
When folks get that blinded by their thinking that they cant identify their own will and choice then really I say you have been bewitched by false doctrine.
The examples you gave and the big bang response are just illogical. Tell me was it determined for you to get up this morning at the exact time you did?
I notice determinists cannot explain the simplest of everyday experiences.

@Augustusea Yes determinism. The dogma of those who have stunted their common sense and logic.
Everything has a cause? What caused the mythical big bang?
Problem is the philosophically illiterate run to scientism and then cant even explain how they choose their own breakfast.

@Judaka :up:

@Augustusea We are now descending into bizarro world! So who decided for you to post this reply if not you? And if you changed your mind you could have replied
later or even not replied. Your not making any sense at all.
Are not some events possibilities and contingent?

@Augustusea So your saying some folks are determined to be optimists and some pessimists?
Maybe its personal determination that settles reality.
Have you pondered that?

@Hippyhead :up:

@jorndoe Go have a look at the stats for the countries surrounding china. And Australia and NZ. Some of those countries have under a few hundred "covid" deaths.
Why the difference? You can wtf all you want. The worldwide stats have no rhyme nor reason and outside the media most people have no direct evidence of people dying any more than any other year.

@Anaxagoras So basically 6 deaths over what period? Since march? Where they proven from covid or underlying health issues. What ages? And you see that an employee cannot access statistics. Nothing to see there...
All stats relevant to Your experience are unavailable.
So basically you follow the govt media driven narrative despite witnessing how many deaths???
You grasp on the science is derivative quoting literature is not understanding and there are many medical opinions to the contrary. Your trump reference is just blah. As if the medical industry isnt involved in the same alternative facts as trump.
You also ignored my points on theory,kochs postulates and strawmanned my point on inflammation.
Its workers like you who dont ask critical questions and spread fear who have helped this hoax. Your govt loves your compliance and timidity.
Remember the pictures from wuhan of people dropping dead in the street foaming at the mouth? Doubtless propoganda and lies. What makes you think the US doesnt work exactly the same way?
How many doctors and medical staff you personally know who have died of covid? There is a clue there for you...

Ah,the belief that plutocracy will redistribute wealth to the detriment of themselves.
Such a cute fairytale of leftists and conservatives.
Great=rich. Ah,the manifesto and value system of the authoritarian and the slave.

@Metaphysician Undercover The wealthy elite are the government and its subsidiaries. It's not one entity but they have shared goals and there are winners and losers hence the infighting between Republicans and the fighting with democrats and vice versa. The mass media though varied on the surface have shared political values and jostle with each other and get behind whichever of the two parties they are affiliated with.
The extent of political bias and fake reporting in the mass media is blatantly obvious. Both rich Democrats and Republicans have gained hugely from this hoax in terms of wealth and political possibilities. It is election year.
Democratic state? Ah,you mean plutocracy. You think stock market reporting is accurate and honest with no agenda for the wealthy?

@Anaxagoras Your not answering a basic point. How many deaths from covid in Your hospital?
You can take excerpts from any science literature,there isnt any consensus and many scientists say the exact opposite.
You havent heard of germ theory.or kochs postulates and yet you claim you understand swab testing and viruses.
And the PCR assay! Do you even know how that works and the criticisms that can be levied at it?
So which age groups does it differ from the common.flu?

@TheMadFool Could something be non mass quantifiable but physical? Light is physical,the mass is?

@Banno Great description!
Pwned.
A man too cowardly to confront the demolition of his twin idols.
The ironic thing is the naming and necessity thread is the best in the history of TPF.
From that thread,in spite of that thread the absolute folly of kripke witty and devotees was shown.
Platos cratylus shows far more understanding of language but alas Plato also used truth for his own folly.
You show ONE exception to description and I will show you wittys pink unicorn tesla space car.

@Augustusea No one has a choice?! Many people live without this dogmatic view of suffering and prosper.
How does your determinism explain that?

@Anaxagoras The pics you sent are not opening.
Write the stats if you wish.
You obviously have no idea of the science of kochs postulates or the validity of germ theory. Your swabs and tests are detecting natural biologocial inflammation which everyone has to some degree. But the tests are arbitrary and do not detect flu,they detect only inflammation. I could probably test positive if I had a tough workout at the gym.
Asymptomatic disease is an affront to human rationality.
The CDC and many scientists admit false positives and the dubious nature of the tests.
Fauci wrote an article in the Lancet saying covid wasnt much different to the flu. Go google many scientists saying the dangers and lockdown are spurious.
Your conflating facts with manipulated stats and bogus science.
You personally how many covid deaths you witnessed?

@Anaxagoras How many deaths in your place of work? Listen,there is zero proof of covid 19. The test are bogus. Even by your own medical science covid has not fulfilled any of kochs postulates. To say nothing that germ theory is an unproven totally inaccurate assertion.
The same proof you give from your personal experience I have from others who work in hospitals. Or is only your experience valid?
Honest or knowledgable medics will admit establishing a cause of death is many times fraught with misdiagnosis.
I personally equally do not care for your misinformed fear porn. And the only consequences I see are public fear due to irresponsible information from ill informed people who worship the media and cannot think rationally.