No, I am not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at all. I apologise, because I didn't explain what I meant at all. Melanie Klein spoke of two stages of development in infancy, in the child's relationship with the mother and the anxieties relating to her. It forms the basis for projective processes in other relationships in life. It may come into play in groups, especially in how we defend ourselves and our points of view.

I think that the problem with your discussion is that you keep leaping from one area to another, transgender, souls and, reading through the thread it is a complete jumble. I am not saying that you should not have a discussion, but bearing in mind that gender is such a vast topic I think that you need to try to narrow it down in order for it to work. It is also a sensitive topic, so ideally it calls for some knowledge rather than just rambling opinion. Here, what I am talking about is the way in which there is inequality between men and women, and the experience of minorities.

So, I do think that you need to really think about is what you wish to ask. I probably won't engage further in the discussion because I don't wish to get into such a politically contentious debate on this forum. However, the one thing which I do also think that you should bear in mind is that you are talking about the whole topic in such an abstract manner, whereas, in fact, gender is a lived experience for every human being.

Perhaps it is all about polarisation, and a tendency to see the other as the enemy. I think that the psychoanalyst makes a useful point in speaking about the paranoid schizoid position, as a development in the way we make splits in order to defend our position and this probably becomes apparent in groups, with projection of hostility onto the perceived others.

Actually, you have just reminded me of David Icke's idea that the royal family shapeshift to become reptiles...

He does look like he is in a rather strange state of being.

You're quite a fan of Paul Simon. I do like him, especially Graceland album.

I was interested in your remark to Madfool about how clinical paranoia. I do believe that these are exaggerated defense mechanisms. It seems that people can develop fantastic stories in order to protect themselves physically, as well as psychologically.

I have not come across that particular quote from Nietzsche and it is a great quote. I also really like your images of 'pessimism as a tall tree with short roots'. I do believe that pessimism needs to be balanced with some optimism. It really would seem like a tall tree which may get blown down in the wind and storms.

It does seem that the whole approach to alcohol problems, even AA is based on a disease model. However, a lot of the people with alcohol issues seem to be the ones who label themselves alcoholics, although I think that they are probably doing this to acknowledge that it is a problem.

I am vaguely aware of the SMART recovery goal approach. What is the more preferable term instead of 'alcoholic'? I know that there is a whole spectrum of dual diagnosis.Unfortunately, most forms of diagnosis come from a disease model. I do favour the recovery approach model in general.We could even ask to what extent psychiatry psychoanalysis and other psychological approaches begin from pessimism or optimism? As models they do begin from certain perspective about human nature.

We would definitely need to omit the 12 step approach. Even though you say AA is for reform, I think that some people use it to offload, because many alcoholics probably have very difficult life experiences to share.

Perhaps it would be Pessimists Anonymous.

My music gets much darker. My pessimistic music includes The Doors, the Jesus and Mary Chain and an ultimate album for being down is Slipknot's, 'When All Hope is Gone.' Actually, I find that extremely dark music can lift my mood significantly, but it has to be the right music at the right time. It is all so subjective, but, personally, when listening to music it can be about transmuting the darkness within. I am probably a bit of a gothic pessimist.

So how do you think communal pessimism would take place? Do you think that it would be about people sharing their experiences in a group? I do believe that there would have to be very firm boundaries because group dynamics are so complex. My own experience of groups is that often certain people dominate. Do you think it would need a leader?

I did once take part in a philosophy group which was more about sharing experiences. Of course, in groups some people feel more comfortable about sharing than others, and probably this depends on how much similarity and difference there is amongst the group.

Of course, Freud's original idea was really one of catharsis, rather than of telling people that they should get better. Freud's philosophy was fairly pessimistic too.

I do believe that the arts, especially writing are a form of ventilating the experience of suffering. Diaries and journals can be a way of exploring difficulties. I have just come across a relevant quote from Kafka:
'I don't mean, of course, that my life is better when I don't write. Rather, it is much worse then and wholly unbearable and has to end in madness.'

One book which I believe is essential for understanding suffering and absurdity is Colin Wilson's, 'The Outsider'. He looks at the life and suffering of many creative individuals, including Nietzsche, Camus and Van Gogh. He does see the experience of suffering as an essential aspect of creativity. However, he does go beyond pessimism in speaking of peak experiences. So, we can ask whether the experience of anguish can give way to the possibility of peak experiences, or heightened states of creativity?

I have been in some experiential psychotherapy groups which seem to operate along those lines. But, we can also ask to what extent is moaning useful? Also, if done in a group rather than complaining about life it can become a matter of complaining about each other.

This is your first post, so welcome to the forum. You make some important points, especially in saying that the question of pessimism and optimism seems to be one arising in facing uncertainty. It does seem that it is this which gives a need for approaching life with an optimistic or pessimistic viewpoint.

I do think that you are right to say that it is a matter of disposition. You say that you feel that the best starting point is pessimism. I am still a bit divided, thinking that both are important ways of seeing. I feel that it is worth zooming on each at different times. I am not sure if that means that I am just sitting on the fence. However, I believe in the importance of seeing problems with as much realism as possible. However, I do like to approach them with a certain amount of positivity too.

I am surprised that you could not function for about a month after reading Schopenhauer's ideas, especially on desire. I read his essays on pessimism this morning and feel perfectly okay. However, I have probably read many other writers on desires, and I was brought up with Christianity, so I probably reached the climax of such thinking a long while ago.

It is hard sometimes to face the world with 'a cheery face' when faced with a pessimistic philosophy. However, I do think our own life circumstances do affect mood so much. Even then, situations in the world can affect us. I find that if I watch a lot of news I get rather downcast, but, at the same time, I do want to be aware of what is going on. I don't want to be living in some kind of balloon floating over the world, oblivious to suffering.

The anthropology of religion is an area I find fascinating. I have read Eliade's, 'The Sacred and the Profane'. I have dipped into Levi Strauss, but I find his writing a bit dry too. Have you read, 'Purity and Danger', by Mary Douglas?

Jung's ideas have been the most inspiring for me. One work which I regard of central importance is his, 'Answer to Job', for its whole analysis and interpretation of the Judeo-Christian image of God. Also, I like his whole understanding of Eastern religions.

Really, I like reading around the whole area of symbolism, including the writings of Joseph Campbell, as well as Rudolf Otto's approach to numinousity. I am also fascinated by many esoteric writers, especially Rudolf Steiner.

I have been reading, 'The Essays of Arthur Schopenhauer: Studies in Pessimism, ' this morning and found it a good book to read. One aspect which I was quite surprised by was the way he sees Christianity as a form of pessimism, in its whole emphasis upon sin. Having been brought up within the tradition of Christianity, I had never really thought about it as a pessimistic philosophy. However, I certainly have worried about sinfulness.

Generally, I have read more in psychology than philosophy about despair, especially in depth psychology. One book which stands out for me is, 'Suicide and the Soul,' by James Hillman which looks at the whole experience of despair. I have known people who have committed suicide and I have also worked with people who are suicidal in mental health care and it does seem that it is necessary to enable people who are feeling despairing and suicidal to understand the depths of despair, rather than just short circuit into an attempt to fight the negative. I do think that the philosophy of pessimism can probably do this to some extent, almost as a form of consolation.

I am inclined to think we all need to find the right balance between pessimism and optimism. Certainly, I feel that I need to juggle them to adjust to the fluctuations in my own mental state. I find that I need both the insights of pessimistic philosophy, as well as some positive thinking to make sense of life, like the yin and the yang.

I am glad that you can see the link between pessimism and mood. I am definitely not in favour of a whole empty philosophy of happiness but sometimes when I read too much in the direction of nihilism I find that I sink into melancholia. The term is not used that much now, or certainly not within psychiatry. However, going back to my time as a teenager, reading in a library, I can remember reading, 'The Anatomy of Melancholy', by Robert Burton.

I do think that it is easy for a general sense of disappointment in life to overlap with a whole philosophy of pessimism, and it seems that the two can collude together. Generally, I think those who experience more unhappiness are more likely to gravitate towards a pessimistic philosophy. I think it is how far one decides to go, because it can become a downward spiral.

However, perhaps it is also important to acknowledge the pits of despair. One of my favourite quotes from Carl Jung is, 'I live in my deepest hell and from there I cannot fall any further.' One idea which Jung refers to is the idea of enantiodromia by Heraclitus, which refers to the way in which when one of the poles is reached to the extreme, there is often a natural swing to the opposite one. Certainly, I find that if I get into a really negative state, it often seems that at some point, I swing to the a really positive swing. But, I am aware of people who seem to live most of the time in a state of negativity or positivity. I feel that I have a constant battle within myself between a general outlook of pessimism and optimism.

I am about to log off for the night, but it is an interesting idea that modern philosophy begins with despair.

It is interesting that pessimism and asceticism can be linked because in some ways it could give rise to the view that nothing matters and that, therefore, everything is permitted, or this may be more of a modern take on nihilism.

Anyway, its almost midnight, so I am going to log off now, but will reply to any further comments tomorrow.

I have got a few books by Schopenhauer on my Kindle. Which do you recommend, because he has written a lot? I also realise that he is your mentor in some ways, but do you have other authors who inspire you, although maybe 'inspire' you? Perhaps the word 'inspire' is the wrong one to use in talking about pessimism.

I am seeing your reply come up as I am writing. The books I have by Schopenhauer seem to be collections, but I will look out for 'World and Representation' when bookshops and libraries reopen.

I think a bit puzzled why you think that monks are pessimists, and not sure why asceticism comes into the picture necessarily.

I have read some Camus, including, 'The Myth of Syphyus'. I do embrace despair to some extent, but I do find that if I focus on that philosophy too much I do start to become rather depressed.

I do agree that one can have a philosophy of pessimism without necessarily being unhappy. I wonder if this is a set of ideas which is detached from the personal though. It may be possible to think of suffering on a philosophical level when one is enjoying the comforts of daily existence. What I wonder is what happens to the person who adopts the philosophy when he or she comes face to face with suffering on a personal level?

I don't see why Buddhism can't be considered in this thread because it is a valid perspective. I am interested in looking at the whole question of pessimism in the broadest way.

So, what is the one way to find out? I am a bit puzzled.

It is interesting that you mention death because it may be that ideas of death are an underlying aspect of many forms of pessimistic philosophy. It could be that belief that we are going to die, or that humanity is going to become extinct are central aspects of pessimism. Or, perhaps it is the idea of having to live with suffering on such a level that it would be simply 'unbearable'.

I don't see why you started the discussion about transgender. Perhaps, it would have been better to start with the basis of gender because you are probably making it so much harder for yourself. I think that many discussions on this site focus on trans issues for some reason, and perhaps it is a way of avoiding thinking about what it means to be a man or a woman.

I would imagine that it is not that there is a fundamental difference in the nature of the commonplace understanding of pessimism, but more about the depth of the idea. If anything, the history of pessimism and optimism is probably one which weaves its way through the whole of philosophy and other systems of thoughts. It also is behind the scenes of culture and politics. The most extreme version is probably nihilism. One form of it which is probably not the most obvious is in death metal music. You would probably be surprised to know that was the version of it that made me wonder about it.

My own understanding of it takes it as a position of viewing the future with a sense of doom and futility, and an overriding sense that there is no way of finding positive solutions.

Do you really think that Buddhism is a philosophy of pessimism?

What is 'simplicity of soul'? I am not sure that many women would be happy with such an idea applied to them.

Of course, there is a difference between pessimism and hopelessness but, surely, pessimistic thoughts can give rise to a sense of hopelessness.

I am really interested in Lacan's work on psychoanalysis and his book, 'The Psychoses', although I have only read parts of it. I am also interested in Baudrillard's idea of simulacrum. However, I am in the position of having only read a little on these areas of thought and do wish to explore them in further depth.

Probably the context in which I have followed through the ideas of postmodernism is within sociology and it is on this level that I think it is useful. I would not advocate postmodernism to be the point where self reflection is undervalued. I do believe that this aspect of modernism is so important and needs to triumph in spite of other aspects of philosophy we adopt.

Pessimism and optimism definitely seem to be partly a consequence of the states of mind we experience. Some people become depressed and some even develop manic defences, or fragment into psychotic states.

However, pessimism and optimism also operate on a cultural level. The professionals within mental health care come with their own values and attitudes. So, in a way pessimism can even be contagious as an underlying factor permeating social life and perhaps the ones who experience the profound states presenting in mental health care do so because they are the most sensitive ones.

I do think that it is true that repeated attempts to strive for hope do give way to a more ultimate collapse into despair. It may be that the person keeps getting knocked down, gets knocked down and this can happen repeatedly. So, I wonder if the way of embracing the absurd is one way of finding a pathway of acceptance of futility without becoming broken by it.

It is interesting that you bring in the topic of romanticism because the whole movement of romanticism came with very different views. Perhaps the most interesting was that of Nietzsche's nihilism. It was a philosophy of despair but in some ways it was a romantic one rather than the conventional form despair. In a way it created a glamour of despair and I do believe that this is an aspect of the philosophy of despair in our culture.

I do believe that it is possible to blend optimism and pessimism. Perhaps it can even be seen as a continuum.

You speak of brain chemistry and I think that this comes into it because depression comes into the picture. In some ways, negative thinking can set off the process of clinical depression. Or, the experience of depression may lead to negative thinking. It may be hard to determine which is the cause, or it may involve a complete feedback loop.

Decay of the body is one which we face individually. It is interesting to think of this in relation to the global crisis. Perhaps Gaia, or mother earth is reaching her menopause, but we have exploited her body and will have to live with the consequences. I do believe that we need to make changes in order to try to find ways for the potential future generations, and the biggest danger may be if we just view ourselves as the final inhabitants to the earth.

I think that it would be worth you doing some research into trans issues. The whole medical process of changing gender is to address the experience of gender dysphoria, which is the discomfort of one's experience of being a certain gender. It requires a whole assessment process by psychiatrists.

Jung's understanding of gender is coming from a different perspective altogether, and is more a perception of androgyny as a spiritual quest, or as an archetype. He was drawing upon Gnostic ideas and was writing from a historical context, and this is rather different from the modern day trans movement, although that may go back to the essential archetype of the androgyne, but mainly in a secular context