The intention is the choosing; whether that choosing is conscious or not. You are confusing yourself by reifying abstract notions. — John
This sounds more like a hard determinist line than a compatibilist line. — Pierre-Normand
But in the case where you are well informed and don't suffer (through no fault of your own) from some addiction, say, then to say that you had no choice in doing what you did because you were "influenced" by you reason for doing so doesn't seem to make sense. — Pierre-Normand
I have already agreed that it is not rationally consistent with the scientific view of nature, and that it cannot be justified by pure rationality. — John
Not at all, humans act in accordance with unconscious intentions all the time. — John
What is flawed is the claim that infinite series reflect the real. They are products of dialectical reasoning which can only model the real to a limited degree. — John
Freedom can neither be proven nor disproven; whether you intellectually accept it as a reality or not depends entirely on presuppositions which cannot be justified by discursive reasoning; it's always going to be a leap of faith. — John
On the other hand you cannot really doubt your own freedom and responsibility in your heart and as C S Peirce said:
“Let us not doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts.” — John
We can't choose not to breathe but we can chose not to lie or steal — Pierre-Normand
Hence, in order to block the regress, it is sufficient to point to the values that motivate you in acting and challenge the proponent of the regress argument to show you why your endorsing such values isn't a rational act. — Pierre-Normand
I was arguing that she wanted to hear the reasons why her neighbor was trimming her hedge. The question of the causal factors that were implicated in her becoming aware of those reasons is a different question. — Pierre-Normand
You still seem to be missing the point; these are justifications in terms of practical, not pure, reason. The point is that you cannot produce a rational model that shows that we are both fully determined in our actions by forces beyond our control, while being at the same time morally responsible for those actions. — John
When moving no one is conscious of an infinite number of steps that "take progressively shorter time intervals", either. — John
My point was that the whole notion of infinite series is flawed and is a chimera of dialectical reason. — John
I would not say that knowing is necessarily a conscious experience. — John
But in any case, equally so is the sense of freedom an experience, and certainly at least sometimes conscious. And whether and how you know anything can be doubted and questioned in just the same way as the sense of freedom; precisely by introducing an infinite regress. — John
The reason why I am pointing you to Strawson's argument is because it seems to express the same worry that you are trying to express (in the form of a regress argument) but it doesn't suffer from the same flaw. It doesn't misconstrue an intentional action as a sort of action that must be controlled by a prior intention in order for it to be intentional. — Pierre-Normand
And also, as I mentioned already, if you accept Strawson's argument, then it threatens compatibilist free will just as much as it threatens libertarian free will, which is instructive and may motivate you in trying to figure out what's wrong with it. — Pierre-Normand
Of course people can still have feelings of praise and blame; I wasn't disputing that. What I meant is that without the premise of freedom, moral responsibility, and the attitudes of praise and blame that go with it, cannot be rationally justified. — John
I have said what was wrong with your argument. I have said that all that infinite regress arguments show is that reality cannot be adequately modeled dialectically. I believe I mentioned that this is similar to the case with Zeno's Paradoxes of movement. — John
Consider another example, which is related to the ancient skeptics' denial of the possibility of knowledge. You say that you know, but how do you know that you know, know that you know that you know, and so on, ad infinitum. This is just like your infinite regress argument about deciding: if you decide, do you decide to decide, decide to decide to decide, and so on ad infinitum? — John
By the way, I just finished reading a nice short paper by Chris Tucker: Agent Causation and the Alleged Impossibility of Rational Free Action. It's just 11 pages long and quite on topic for this thread. — Pierre-Normand
the fact that the agent isn't engaging in the bad habit for the first time in her life but rather has a history of doing so -- is a manifestation of her free agency that is spread over time. — Pierre-Normand
It is not unusual to hear as a response: "I would have much preferred doing ..., but...". What figures in the place of the first ellipse might be what the agent desired most at the time of acting (because it is an intrinsically appealing act to her) and what figures in the place of the second ellipse is something that the agent "desires" to do because she *judges* it to be best to act in this way in the light of her duties, values, commitments, etc. — Pierre-Normand
What the questioner wants to know isn't what sort of thing (e.g. and intention or neural event or something else) causes the action but rather what is the reason the agent has to do what she did. It's only though the disclosure of this reason that the actions will show up intelligibly as the intentional action that it is. — Pierre-Normand
But what remains to be explained is why Natural Forces would be creating all these illusions but at the same time sleeping people yourself to see through these illusions but not people such as myself? Why are the Laws of Nature (God) playing all of these tricks and precisely which laws are at work? — Rich
For some unexplained reasons, the Laws of Nature fool is into the thinking we have Choice. It is a Buddhist-like illusion. — Rich
Why does the Laws of Nature allow some to see through the illusion and not others? Why and how? — Rich
Some people are compassionate and others are not. If determinism is the case then people cannot be praised for possessing, or blamed for failing to possess, compassion. — John
Your first point is so irrelevant and your second so lamely wrong, that neither warrants any response. — John
The idea is not nonsensical at all, we all understand it perfectly well. — John
It is just that it is un-analyzable. — John
There is no coherent idea of moral responsibility that "doesn't need libertarian free will"; the idea of responsibility without the latter notion collapses into causal responsibility which is the same as with all natural phenomena, and you have definitely not offered any account of such an idea that "doesn't need libertarian free will". — John
If one acts badly because one has acquired a bad habit, one often is responsible for having acquired the bad habit in the first place. — Pierre-Normand
One does not always act merely on the strength of one's "strongest" antecedent desire, whatever that might mean. — Pierre-Normand
Rather, one acts on desires, values or considerations that one takes to highlight specific features of one's practical situation that are salient on rational and/or moral grounds. — Pierre-Normand
On my view, the action is indeed controlled by the intention of the agent (and therefore, by the agent). What makes it the case that an action is controlled by an agent precisely is the obtaining of the conditions under which the action is intentional. Granted, there arises a problem for some libertarians who believe that acts of the will only are free if the agent could have acted differently in the exact same circumstances, where those circumstances include all of the agent's states of mind and the dispositions of her character. But that's not my account. — Pierre-Normand
I might go along with this. But before you were talking about one thing, "spacetime", and now you are talking about two distinct things, time and space, so you have changed the subject, divided it into two distinct subjects. — Metaphysician Undercover
A field is a concept based in spacetime. The fact that the position of the particle cannot be determined through the use of the field indicates that there is activity outside of the field (not covered by the field), and quite likely outside of spacetime. — Metaphysician Undercover
Sure, but do you distinguish between material things like bodies, and immaterial things like souls? — Metaphysician Undercover
Action is not confined to "in spacetime". That's why the concept of "a field" will not tell the physicist where a particle is. — Metaphysician Undercover
The soul is explicitly "not a body", therefore it cannot be a "special kind" of body. — Metaphysician Undercover
Since it is not a body, it is highly unlikely that it exists in space-time, because space-time is a concept which was developed to account for the motion of bodies. — Metaphysician Undercover
What sort of thing is a soul? — Banno
That conflicts with the meaning of possible. If it must exist, it is necessary, not just possible. — noAxioms
I can't see any relevance in what you say here. If libertarian free will is, according to rational thought, inexplicable, and you want to conclude from this that it is impossible, then although you might still have fellings of your own, and feelings about others', moral responsibility, it certainly doesn't follow that those feelings are rationally justifiable. — John
You need to show how the special idea of moral responsibility which is necessarily based on the belief that human behavior is not exhaustively determined by natural forces could be compatible with its being exhaustively determined by natural forces and the idea that no human decision or act reaaly could have been other than it was. — John
As Hume has taught us, there's no way to deduce apriori the effects from their causes, but you have to observe causes and effects and see if they come in constant conjunctions etc. — Fafner
But now, do we learn by experience that every time when we have a certain sort of intention, we always find ourselves behaving in some corresponding way? — Fafner
So, I am suggesting that what makes the action intentional under such a description (i.e. "making an omelet") is the fact that the agent is pursuing that goal while being able to deliberate practically towards realizing that goal; that is, judging what the necessary means are and executing them for that reason. — Pierre-Normand
Even if we construe the forming of an intention as a purely mental act, that occurs prior to acting, and that controls our actions, there still need not be a separate act of choosing to intend in this way in order that the intention be free and that we be responsible for it. — Pierre-Normand
As I also suggested, such an explanation of action looks very much like a compatibilist account. But it is crucially distinguished from standard compatibilist accounts in an important respect. If what grounds the agent's decision is her being sensitive to the features of her practical situation that make it reasonable, by her own lights, that she ought to so act, then her actions aren't determined by prior causes that have receded in the historical past and that therefore lay beyond her control. — Pierre-Normand
That would be correct if we were always being passively caused to acquire our beliefs through the impact of brute external events. But this would be to deny that we have rational abilities to critically assess our beliefs and their sources in such a manner as to secure genuine knowledge. — Pierre-Normand
Does that involve will phenomena? — Terrapin Station
So the support is a question-begging stipulation. Nice. — Terrapin Station
You don't need to control the intentional action since your being engaged in an intentional action already is your controlling what happens with your own body and surroundings. — Pierre-Normand
Rather, in the usual case, your ability to intelligently come up with the correct words, on the fly, as it were, is partly constitutive of your ability to think out loud. — Pierre-Normand
I would rather say that your prior intention to go to Cuba, as well as your ability to reason instrumentally, is manifested in your now booking the plane tickets (and many other things that you do, or refrain from doing when that would interfere with your plans). — Pierre-Normand
It would be strange to say that your answer that pi isn't periodic has been caused by whatever caused you, in the past, to believe that pi is irrational. — Pierre-Normand
You could additionally ask:
"But why am I in this possibility-world? In fact, why am I me, this particular person? Is that by chance?" — Michael Ossipoff
What accounts for this possible world being actual instead of one of the others? That is, why is this particular possible world concrete, as opposed to one of the other possible worlds? Is it just by chance? — Brayarb
There are many, many constraints on actions, all we can do is try to move in a direction. — Rich
Free will is ontological freedom in conjunction with will phenomena. — Terrapin Station
Also, an intentional action, on the account I have been recommending, isn't a further act causally downstream from the act of intending. — Pierre-Normand
So, to refer back to my earlier trip-to-Cuba example, if I intend to go to Cuba next month, there this already existing intention can be the cause, in a sense, of my forming today the new intention of booking plane tickets. So, whenever A is a means of doing B, then what causes my intending to do A is my intending to do B. The sort of causation that is a play here might be called rational causation. It is because it is rational to do A when one intends to do B that one forms an intention to do A. — Pierre-Normand
There is no control over actions. There is an ability to attempt to move in a particular direction. Outcomes are always uncertain because of other constraints. — Rich
Slipping on a banana is not something that you do intentionally, it is something that simply happens to you outside of your control. — Fafner
prior "intentions to act" -- intentions for the future, we may call them -- stand in relation with intentional actions in the same sort of causal relation than intentions in action stand to intentional actions that manifest them. And this form of causation is quite different from event-event-causation where something that occurs at a time causes something else to occur at a later time (or maybe at the very same time) by virtue of some natural law. — Pierre-Normand
Rather the intentions themselves are manifestations of our acts of will. As Eric Marcus has put the point, it makes sense to say that, in the case of intentional actions, the whole is the cause of the parts. — Pierre-Normand
You intentionally control your actions simply by doing them, and hence you don't need an intermediary in the form of a separate 'intention'. — Fafner
Support? — Terrapin Station
That's as it may be, but I'm not talking about the feeling or moral responsibility; I'm taking about the rational justification of the idea of moral responsibility. — John
Without the assumption of radical freedom the notion of moral responsibility is incoherent; a human being responsible for an act reduces to the same kind of responsibility that natural phenomena and animals are thought to have for their acts. — John
An act of will is a choice to move in a particular direction. That is all that it is. Perception are virtual actions or possible direction of movement. There is nothing free but there is choice. — Rich