Well, they both use limits, if that's what you are after. — Banno

Not really. I think however, and perhaps you'll agree, that Zeno was using infinite divisibility in a much different way, for much different reasons. In short, I am not at all confident that I fully understand the difference between Zeno's paradox(concerning shortening distances over time by dividing a whole) and what's going on with Hawking's suggestion...

Nevermind me... I think I'm in over my head here!

:wink:

All causal relationships consist of a plurality of things. First cause arguments mistakenly presuppose otherwise.

Is the problem within Zeno's paradox somehow not one here, with your(Hawking's) suggestion?

I think we agree on that(regarding the lack of need to invoke a deity to explain some observation or another).

I was more asking if calculus was applicable here? If not, why not? It seems to be based upon the same logic(infinite division) as Zeno's paradox.

More as a curiosity than an argument, there's Hawking's suggestion. We can have an infinite causal chain in a finite time.

The event at time 1 is caused by the event at time ½, which in turn is caused by the event at time ¼, and so on. Every event in the causal chain has a cause, without a first cause, in a finite time, and without reaching zero.

Looking forward to the replies... — Banno

I'm no mathematician... obviously. But, doesn't this have the same logic as Zeno's paradox with the hare and the tortoise?

Doesn't calculus solve this?

the system itself is existentially dependent upon racist belief, as I've argued from/for common sense regarding this already.
— creativesoul

You mean...

Here's a bit of common sense...

Wherever there have never been racist beliefs, there could not have ever been unacceptable racially motivated policies.
— creativesoul

That's what you call an argument is it? — Isaac

Fair enough, I didn't make it explicit... However, given your cognitive abilities, I thought it unnecessary...

There is systemic racism. Hence, there are racist beliefs, or policies stemming from such, contained within it. To effectively correct the affects/effects of those racist beliefs, we must identify and remove/replace the policies and/or institutions stemming from them.

I am not saying that everyone currently in government, law enforcement, or the judicial system is racist or holds racist beliefs. There, we agree. However, to claim that there is no racist belief necessary in order to have systemic racism is like saying apples are not currently necessary to have apple pie.

It's a matter of elemental constituency. Although, philosophically we will most certainly part ways here. I mean, unless one of us changes our view, we will not agree on this. You are a physicalist, or so it seems, whereas I am of the well considered opinion that the physical/mental dichotomy is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of that which is existentially dependent upon and thus consists of both...

Racist belief, racism, and systemic racism are all such things. Thus... our differences are due to our accounting practices. Our agreements are far more important here, perhaps. Although, I think that correcting the problems is much more likely to happen by first taking proper account of them.

Cheers!

It's all thoght and belief. — Banno

:smile:

Not really my friend... there must be something to think about.

:wink:

Another approach would be to pull philosophy out and put logic at the centre; the flower then has order, structure or pattern at the centre with philosophy, sense-making, as the perimeter. — Banno

And yet another would be to put thought and belief at the center...

:wink:

Who are the guilty?

Those who commit violence against the innocent. — NOS4A2

Who are the innocent?

We're on the same side, you know?

I mean, I presume we want the same outcomes. Here, it would benefit us to recognize that our differences seem to be on a ontological/metaphysical level, which amounts - in some ways - to the linguistic framework we're using to account for racism and/or racist belief. Well, and we also differ in what we espouse to be the necessary method for realizing the changes needed... for making them happen!

you surprised me with what seemed to be a rejection of the need for a knowledge of the history underwriting today's situations...

The 'law and order' approach, usually meant to counter protesters, falls flat on it's face as soon as someone points out the fact that blacks are protesting for law and order, not against it.

More specifically, equal protection and treatment under the law.

Sigh...

:roll:

...my parents never raised me to be racist nor a bigot, and that humanity is the species to which I belong. However, given the racism my parents have experienced they’ve instilled the thought in me that regardless of my own beliefs I will not always be treated as an American and much less as a human being by every white person. Due to my own personal experiences with racism it has validated that and because of that, I fear passing this on to my children. — Anaxagoras

Again, unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find no reason to suppress such belief. Pass it on, for your children's sake. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that some white people will not treat you or them with the basic modicum of respect, simply because you and they are human beings. That's the unfortunate reality of the world, and it transcends race my friend. There are all sorts of ways that people exclude others and devalue/belittle them based upon some arbitrary difference such as race, religion, personal tastes, personal values, ethnicity, socio-economic circumstances, etc.

It is important to not fall into the same line of fallacious thinking that many white racists share. They see some heinous crime being committed by a black person, and then conclude that all blacks are... pick your fallacious poison. It's wrong on several levels.

Not all whites are racist. Some will treat you and your children with respect...

...but not all. Allowing them to realize that is to prepare them properly for the world in which we live.

It’s less stupid than suggesting violence and vandalism against the innocent... — NOS4A2

Who are the guilty?

I recently listened to a lady talking to an audience of white people. She asked for a show by raised hands of anyone who would like to be treated in the same way that black people are treated in the US. No hands. She then repeated the instructions... and again asked for anyone in the room would like be treated the way that black people are treated in America to raise their hand. Again... no hands.

She went on...

So this shows us that we are all aware of what's going on here. None of us want to be treated as such. So then, why and/or how is it ok to stand aside and allow others to be treated in such ways? What makes it ok to do that? Indifference towards racism perpetuates racism.

Shoot the elephant!

The more important issue here is that actual racist beliefs are not currently required to perpetuate systemic racism. — Isaac

On it's face, this is completely false. For the system itself is existentially dependent upon racist belief, as I've argued from/for common sense regarding this already. The system has as it's very structural support... actual racist beliefs. At the core...

Whether or not any particular individual currently residing/operating in the system holds racist beliefs is another matter altogether. The more important matter though, is whether or not they are willing to do anything about it.

From whence systemic racism come if not from systems put in place by racists?
— creativesoul

From racist outcomes. A system in which more black people are disporportionally murdered by the state is so regardless if every single government officer was an avowed anti-racist. What matters is results, not intention. — StreetlightX

We're talking past one another a bit... I think.

While I understand the (legal culpability)need to avoid accusations/charges/claims of intention, the results are not the origen, which is what I was getting at. In order to stamp out racism, particularly systemic racism, we must identify the problem(s) and doing that requires looking into it's origens. There is no doubt that the effects of racist belief and policies remain extant. So, in that sense, the effects of racism no doubt prove the existence of it. However, in order to get a full view of those effects/affects, we must also acquire knowledge of exactly how racist belief has been legalized/legitimized - empowered - throughout American history as well as how those policies affected/effected black Americans over the centuries, particularly after the Civil War. Those effects/affects remain to a large degree... in the results - as you say. But, we must tie this all together - in a sort of causal chain of events - for that is the only way to shine much needed light upon the residual effects/affects of clearly racist belief and the policies stemming from those beliefs.

That is an eye opener(well for those who've not suffered from racism, or those who have but not known).

After one's eyes are opened, then it's up to them whether or not to do something about it.

Firstly it doesn't require a racist belief system to generate systemic racism. It only requires systems which do not account for, nor rectify, previous racially motivated policies. — Isaac

Upon a second reading, I realized that this is incoherent. Racially motivated policies are required. Here, you said as much yourself. So, either racist beliefs are not required for racially motivated policies, particularly ones that need corrected(so were unacceptable to begin with) or you're right.

Clearly, you are wrong on this matter. I chalk it up to the physicalist notion of belief that you work from and/or advocate. That's another matter altogether though. You're aware of this, I'm sure.

You've offered bald assertions. Here's a bit of common sense...

Wherever there have never been racist beliefs, there could not have ever been unacceptable racially motivated policies. Hence...

...it doesn't require a racist belief system to generate systemic racism. — Isaac

From whence systemic racism come if not from systems put in place by racists?

Oops. Sorry about the length of that post. I got on a roll I suppose...

:mask:

That's a legitimate point of view, but many authors disagree, so whilst it might be a valid point to argue for within the thread, it's not anywhere near agreed upon enough to render talk of the effects of capitalism off-topic. They absolutely unequivocally affect minority ethnic groups disproportionately compared to white Europeans. You could make an argument that this is nothing but coincidence, but as a state of affairs to be answered for, its pretty much the textbook definition of systemic racism. — Isaac

I am working from a notion of systemic racism that is all about the American government, and the racist belief systems underwriting it. Many of those remain prevalent to this day.

That said, capitalism is a method for providing goods and services to a community/nation of people. Any and all methodology is only as successful as it's implementation, as most socialists/marxists will attest. So, if we have a capitalist based economic system that has racist people making the rules, then you will have systemic racism.

However, the same would hold good of a socialist system. So...

I am more than interested at getting to the facts of the matter at hand regarding systemic racism in American government... at all levels. However, to broaden the scope beyond the shores of the nation diverts the discussion to situations that are not as much under our control, so to speak. I'll say this...

If those in power regarding the rules for global markets(the head of states, and/or the actual authors of legislation regarding trade policy) are operating under a racist belief system, or continuing to implement an inherited racist based system, then we would certainly have a world-wide systemic form of racism.

However, and this is my basic point here, due to the nature of sovereign nations, it is not in my purview to tell them what to do. It is in my purview to demand of my government to act solely as a means to increase the quality of all American lives, or as many as possible, whenever it is possible. It is in my purview to demand a correction of clearly racist belief based policies and practices in the US.

The overlap here between capitalism and racism involves trade policies with nations who treat their own people in ways that are illegal in this nation. This would include, but is not limited to, labor laws, worker and consumer protections laws, and fair trade practices. Those are human rights issues, as are racist issues, but not all humans rights issues share the same 'contours' as the racist issues pervading the US.

A bit more of the overlap...

The historical trend is publicly available. American leaders have allowed foreign governments/businesses to offer goods and services in the American marketplace despite the fact that many of those nations treat their people in ways that are completely impermissible/illegal in the US. This is not a recent event, nor has it been partisan politics. Rather, it has been happening under each and every administration since Nixon, especially since Reagan.

Setting aside the shoddy products widely available with no legal recourse for the consumer, another result has been demonstrably and quantifiably harmful to all American citizens who could have otherwise been comfortably and gainfully employed in the manufacturing sector. Black people have always had a very hard time securing good jobs. Of that, there can be no doubt. However, many Americans have had the very best opportunity available for them removed at the hands of those politicians legalizing these trade policies.

Fast forward to today...

There is a growing movement in the sheer strength of numbers and ethic diversity of Americans who are fed up with the racism still pervading this country. That is getting better and it's doing so at an exponential rate. However, even when and if we ever get to the place where there are no racist beliefs in power, even then, poor blacks will still - just like everyone else who could be quite content holding a gainfully employed stable position for their entire lives - be faced with near impossible odds at finding one. This, of course, focuses on the plight of poor blacks as being a part of a larger group of poor Americans, and is not meant to supplant the current focus upon the much needed reform of our criminal justice system as a means for ending systemic racism. Rather, it's meant to accompany and/or broaden the scope a bit beyond that... into the not so distant future after the necessary reforms in criminal justice and policing are made. For then, we will still have the problem of economic mobility and/or earnings potential. There will still be fewer and fewer good quality American jobs available to those from unfortunate backgrounds/circumstances so long as these trade policies are not addressed; so long as corporations are glorified for turning a blind eye the human tragedy required for them to get their products to market. So long as the American government, and the corporate world remains chock full of hypocrites and those who just do not give a fuck regarding acceptable/unacceptable treatment of people/workers/citizens.

When profit is the sole motive, to hell with what's good, right, moral, and/or in the best interest of the American people. Unfortunately, that is the case. Profit is driving policy making. This is blatantly obvious when we look at the fiasco surrounding the ppe and covid19, as well as the push to 'reopen' despite our not having met the necessary preconditions for doing so that was and is still currently being set out by the foremost knowledgable experts in/from the very beginning.

Being born black in this country, is one of those aforementioned unfortunate circumstances, and will continue to be as long as the racist beliefs are allowed to remain influential in American government. However, social mobility will not be corrected by the current focus upon criminal justice and/or policing reforms.

If all poetry is meaningful to the creator/writer, then there's something quite important missing in AI 'renderings'... isn't there?

Does any of it rhyme, or is it all free verse?

I'd like to see how the legalization of outsourcing from places with illegal(in the States) labor practices ties into the systemic racism in the US government.

Topic is systemic racism... while capitalism overlaps with racist issues, it's coincidental.

The reality is complex, but your answers are simple and arbitrary. — ssu

A very complex way to exonerate immoral activity is dealt with best in the simplest terms possible. , while being a participant with whom I've been at odds with a number of times concerning thought and belief(cognition if you prefer), is acting admirably as far as I can see.

:100:

Not a football game, but worthy of cheerful support nonetheless!

...the beliefs are attached to the person and unfortunately generational beliefs do not change easily. — Anaxagoras

No, they do not. However, they can and do change.

As a black man myself, despite my ideals of egalitarianism I am left with the memories of my mother, father, and grand-parents of their struggle and the affect of their wariness implanted on my soul. Because of that, I'm left with the reality that I may indirectly implant the wariness of "non-persons of color" upon my potential children despite also implanting upon them the love for all humanity. — Anaxagoras

I'm wondering something here. I'll grant everything you've said here, and further state - unequivocally - that implanting a wariness is both necessary and good. Yet, this seems like something that you're no proud of... as if it is something that you do not want to perpetuate.

Until those who devalue and/or otherwise discriminate against black people are stripped of the power to negatively influence and/or harm blacks, then I would say imparting a sense of caution when navigating a life within the United States of America is not only ok, it's something to aspire towards.

Black people ought always be on the lookout for racists.

I think my death would suffice in helping promote egalitarianism... — Anaxagoras

Well, I'll have to take your word on that.

Just understand that from where I sit, I've no reason to believe that. However, because you do believe that, and you know yourself much better than I, if you say your death would be better for an egalitarian society to flourish, I'll have no choice but to take your word for it.

...there is still the question of complicity despite those who do not share the racist mentality. That itself is just as dangerous as the racist mind. — Anaxagoras

I would concur.

The recent protests have given me hope for the future in that there are multi-ethnic people champion the cause of a minority group. To see LGBTQA+ community come out in solidarity with BLM, to see whites, Asians, Muslims, Jews, Christians, nurses, doctors, professionals, and even policemen and women themselves come out in solidarity gives me hope. — Anaxagoras

It is an undeniable sign of the times. We are all fed up with it. It has no place in a society built upon the founding principles of a representative form of government.

Patent infringement is doing something in a way that's too similar to how someone else does something. So if someone else has a good idea for how to do something better, you can't do it that way unless you pay them to let you. You have to keep doing it the worse way, even though you now know a better way to do it, and you doing it doesn't stop them from doing it too. — Pfhorrest

This places patent rights in too negative a light. If someone can prove that the way they are doing something, typically manufacturing a product, has been invented by the applicant - because you patent a system or a specific custom tool therein, or sometimes a process or quantifiable formula/recipe - then there is nothing at all stopping such a person from using that system to manufacture that product, or product line...

The patent rights stop someone else from copying your invention(s). This is particularly important as a means to prohibit theft of one's own ability to earn a comfortable living as a result of their own hard work by those who have much greater means to produce and market the product line.

Anyway, just wanted to add a bit of positive support for patent rights. That's just scratching the surface though. Patents rights are held for a limited time only.

Funding.

I agree too and I don't think it's too hard to discuss difficult topics like race without using phrases like "black coon" or repeating a bunch of racially-loaded personal anecdotes of dubious veracity. We're not setting the bar very high with that, I think. — Baden

I wholeheartedly support ending the self-perpetuated hatred of an entire group of people based upon nothing other than a few true beliefs followed by irrational reasoning, or a few false beliefs following the so-called rules of correct inference.

Anyone who uses the term "black coon" is repeating a historically well-known racial slur. It is always a case of nurturing the derogatory belief, the irrational hatred of olden days.

Though very unlikely, I suppose that one could use the name to pick out an individual black person, and not know it's history. One who is first learning by virtue of knowing what's acceptable to say about black people, not only can be, but certainly will be completely unaware of the historical destructive nature of the real life circumstances surrounding the use of that slur. Men were hung to death for being accused of interacting with a white female. Those same men were called "black coon" during these hatred filled ritualistic activities. These hangmen bragged about it at the time while using that name. There is no way a first time user knows this.

Those are extenuating circumstances though, and as such are exceptions to the rule, so to speak. We all know of the plight that is exclusive to black Americans. What's in the best interest of all Americans is also in the best interest of black Americans. It is only when and if it is the case that black lives matter, that it could possibly also be the case that all lives matter. There are unique circumstances which apply to the descendants of slaves as a result of the hate filled belief that still pervades American society. Those beliefs have a well documented history.

"Black coon" is prima facie evidence that those beliefs remain influential to this day.

Should this language user's attention be directed towards the well documented history of hate and violence surrounding such language use, and they do not voluntarily choose to join the team of killing the racist belief, anyone who does not agree to stop such hate cultivation and nurturing of racist belief, anyone who still yet refuses... well then they have proven themselves a harborer and/or nurturer of racist belief themselves - at best.

Good riddance.

I read through quite a few of his posts (here and Facebook) to get a better sense of him, because I questioned honesty. I believe he’s sincere. And yeah, educated and intelligent, though emotionally... off, perhaps somewhere on the spectrum. — praxis

Extremely high functioning?

The reason behind my idea is because those who were raised in a racist household and live must eventually die and those who are influenced by such individuals must die as well. — Anaxagoras

Surely some of those people who were raised in racist households knew and/or learned of better, and in doing so helped others to do the same...

That, my friend, is what it takes... in part at least. It's not enough, but it's certainly necessary.

Look at the last forty years worth of generational change. The youth are ahead of the curve here!

Clearly, in the Deceleration of Independence "all men are created equal" with the parenthesis that denotes (except people of color). — Anaxagoras

Not just people of color either. It was also except those who owned nothing of financial(market-based) value. It was also except women, regardless of color. Although white women were clearly held in much higher regard than minority women, and of that, there is no doubt. Women's role in the world is still a contentious subject matter, across the board. But the point here is to support what you say, and add a bit more context regarding the framework of this nation. The Declaration of Independence also includes a key phrase...

"in order to form a more perfect union"...

That phrase is clear. We strive to form perfection. Those in power must believe that all people are created equal in order for the saying to carry acceptable conventional meaning in today's times. Those in power must believe that all citizens are to be treated equally under the law, and work to ensure that that is case when and where need be.

Who here would say that ending the influence of racist belief systems is anything other than a step in the right direction towards forming a more perfect union? We all know what's been going on. It sickens me, personally.

However, to ultimately change any residual affect that racism can creep its ugly head in, generations must die.

What I mean by generational death is the fact that generations that have propagated racism along with those who have suffered under racism must die. The reason behind my idea is because those who were raised in a racist household and live must eventually die and those who are influenced by such individuals must die as well. To those who suffered under racism they too must die to prevent any ideas of racial retribution through dissent. — Anaxagoras

This, while stemming from perhaps the most noble of intentions, sets out a criterion that is literally, physically, mentally, and figuratively impossible to meet. Your aiming in the right areas, but you need to sharpen the focus just a wee bit.

Belief systems are what must die my friend. The thoughts and beliefs that some have about others get passed on from generation to generation. This includes all kinds of belief about others, racist belief notwithstanding.

...The population (be they politicians, wealthy elites, or just ordinary people) who just sat back and let systemic racism lead to thousands of deaths each year...those people, they're not just lacking a pamphlet on the matter. They're not just about to dismantle the institutions which perpetuate this violence as soon as they receive a stern letter to that effect. They're not going to do anything unless there's some serious threat to their comfortable status quo. — Isaac

Those complicit regarding matters of institutional racism and it's residual effects/affects will remain so as long as doing so poses no threat to their own lives and/or livelihoods.

Is that a good summary?

I mean, do I understand you correctly?

Seemed fairly well educated and knowledgable, from what little I read from him. The weirdness of his comments on race surprised me though! I suppose had they not been a surprise, it would not have seemed so weird!

:wink:

How can we pick anything if the will is not free — Samuel Lacrampe

You're just calling the ability to choose between options "free will". I'm not interested...

Be well.

The wavefunction evolves deterministically. — Kenosha Kid

I know that this is way off topic, but jeesh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes this, and I'm no quantum theorist.

An inevitable side affect from doing philosophy!

:wink:

if it is a fact, and I believe it is, that a woman wearing next to nothing and becoming deliriously intoxicated who becomes sexually assaulted would not have been if they were dressed modestly and sober, and if a man who states again what I am arguing is a fact. That root fact essentially being "less women will become sexually assaulted if dressed modestly and remain sober". If it is a fact and by communicating it to multiple people less women become victims of sexual assault... I ask you. Is that a service or a disservice? — Outlander

Michael and Street covered this...

There were no less rapes happening before scantily clad dress and women drinking was acceptable.

People, especially young ones, mentally and otherwise, crave to be desired. Especially when one's early home life did not facilitate this. It's natural. — Outlander

And here I thought Epstein hung himself in jail... yet he lives in your words, along with all the other sick fuckers in this world who do shit like he did.

The hand waving is happening on the side claiming there is no meaning. — Marchesk

You can say that two times... and then ask them exactly what meaning takes... what do all cases of the attribution of meaning include?