Limit the exposure of the population to those who are infected or likely to be infected — Banno

That would be everyone eh. What's your plan?

Covid would be considered a plague. The response created a new world order. Just because I am unconcerned about Covid does not mean everyone is. The fear out there is real, as are the steps taken to remain safe from the perceived threat. The world has changed based on these perceptions. The validity of the base is no longer relevant, it is the reality now.

famine, disease, and war. — Cheshire

Your order is incorrect, otherwise, I believe they are all coming. First plague, then famine and war. We have plague now (disease), supply chain issues and rising prices will bring famine, and the riots already occurring in various countries need only get larger to bring about war, and let's face it, it's not like people are getting more relaxed out there.

The Prime minister of New Zealand has already brought up the "New World Order", causing more than a ruffle in the press attending that conference.

Two years ago if you had been told that you would need to produce your papers and photo ID to be allowed to sit down for a dinner out, would you have believed it? Or that the government would be telling you how many family members you can have over for Christmas or birthdays? That you would have to prove you are not sick before going to work each day? OR have to wear a mask everywhere you go in a public building? Or a different set of social rules dependent on the medical choices people have made?

How is this not a new world order? The world I grew up in, and believed in, is dead. The historic image of my country is dead, having been replaced by a quasi-nazi government spewing propaganda and division among it's citizenry. The greater good has stomped our checks and balances as the Judiciary here will not hear any suit against any of the pandemic response by government. My options are: Take it, sans reach-around, Leave the country and try to find somewhere not as intent on screwing the citizenry, or revolt.

We are looking at leaving. That's where I stand. Like it, lump it or leave. Terrible options.

True, we aren't being wiped out to the point of threatening civilization. — Cheshire

The likelihood that it progresses to that level is laughable. Our response to it IS threatening civilization as we know it. Welcome to the New World Order. That means the old world order is dead, so yeah, civilization has indeed changed, for the worst from where I sit.

it means that you have presented your position in this way in order to strengthen your position while using time travel as that strengthening means. I will let you process how weak that makes you initial position, that a time travel position is STRENGTHENING to it. Sheesh

100%

I don't really work in a healthcare marketplace. We don't do a wallet biopsy prior to care; just show up and we will treat you as needed. Show up with out ID and we will treat you regardless. We admit everyone that needs it, why they need it isn't really an issue.

60% of deaths are amongst the unvaccinated, — Banno

So 40% of the deaths are vaccinated.

75% of new covid cases are unvaccinated. — Banno

So 25% of new covid cases are vaccinated.

Vaccination is working. — Banno

Sure, but no where near as well as we are being led to believe. So we are mandated to receive a vaccine we don't want (otherwise they wouldn't have to mandate it), that should help, sort of. It was a weak premise when it was initiated and is weakening further as time passes. First the vaccine, then a booster, then maybe another booster, then, and likely, an annual booster too. This is poor medicine to mandate on people.

I would add that up to 30% of the vaccination efficacy can be attributed to the placebo effect, so really, how well is it actually working?

Also, if you can catch a cold, you can catch Covid, so your anti-covid steps have failed eh. Just that simple.

The vaccinated folk get a cold. The unvaccinated folk get to go to the ICU. — Banno

Covid strikes...

...The vaccinated: 80% don't know they had/have it.
...The unvaccinated: 80% don't know they had/have it.

Vaccinated go to the ICU less than the Unvaccinated, true. However, of the 20% that feel symptoms, 75% will not end up at the hospital. Of the 25% that end up at the hospital, most will go home from the emergency department. Yes, the rest will go to ICU, and some will die. Some in the ICU are also vaccinated, and some of them will die as well.

No one ever mentions that the Israeli ICUs are evenly split with vaccinated/unvaccinated. Let's continue to ignore that detail, it doesn't play well.

I question the efficacy of the vaccine. Yes, a whole bunch of people are going to call me names for it, but seriously consider: Vaccination for small pox= no more small pox. Vaccination for measles= no more measles. Same for polio; chicken pox, mumps. You get my point.

Then comes covid...

Prior to vaccine: Mask, social distance, limit movement (domestic and international), decrease social interaction, work from home when possible. Virus spreading, people dying.

During vaccine campaign: Mask, social distance, limit movement (domestic and international) , decrease social interaction, work from home when possible. Virus spreading, people dying.

After achieving fully vaccinated status : Mask, social distance, limit movement (domestic and international), decrease social interaction, work from home when possible. Virus spreading, people dying.

I see zero difference, outside of increased division and resentment on both sides of the vaccination issue.

We need to slow the spread. — NOS4A2

Why? Omicron spreads faster and appears to cause less severe disease. This should be seen as a great opportunity to achieve herd immunity faster. More infected=more natural immunity, this is a good thing.

Deserve is an attempt to justify some sort of position or judgement. I agree with 180Proof: Nobody deserves anything.

Not sure how the thread flopped from abortion to Jesus. Unless one is of that particular religion, that argument is inapplicable to anyone else. If one is of that religion the argument is equally useless as one would not get an abortion as it is not approved by the religion.

However, relating to the thread again, there is no point in having a high court if it won't make final decisions, might as well go to Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". Really helpful supreme court.

Near as I can tell, it's complete nonsense. What exactly is a "property of experience"? Or a "qualitative aspect" of an emotion? — tim wood

I agree. I understand the concept, but as it is something that would be entirely different for everyone under every circumstance, outside of a concept, it seems fairly useless. Ie: When I read discussions on this topic I am rapidly drawn back into one of the more ridiculous classes in which we, the students, were to explore our feelings. We were asked how we felt about something, and then asked how we felt about that, and about that, etc. I think the point of the exercise was to demonstrate that there are multiple levels at play in each moment, however, the result was a classroom filled with confused looking students while our starry eyed instructor looked on waiting for our epiphany. It was most entertaining.

"Think about a duck. How do you feel about that duck? how do you feel about feeling that way? How do you feel about the way you feel about how you feel about the duck? How does that feeling make you feel now? and now? how about now?" Endless possibilities really.

Where does the soul come from? Does it exist prior to taking form in the fertilized egg? Does each parent have half a soul to share?
If the body and soul are the same, does the soul change as the body does? — DingoJones

I will throw in a theory here.

Spirit creates soul, which fills the mind, creating consciousness. The mind needs a housing and means through which to experience life, thereby increasing learning, hence the requirement of a body. The body, as housing for the soul to achieve experiential learning, is created by the biological union of the parents at the behest of the spirit wishing to incarnate in this current reality, therefore the physical union results in conception at the next available opportunity. Abortion could be interpreted as the parental unit effectively canceling that cosmic contract, unless the experiential goal of the spirit/soul union was to experience being aborted and adding that to the multitude of other death experiences.

Body and soul are not the same and therefore do not change in tandem. The body is the vessel through which the soul gathers experiential knowledge so that it may return this knowledge to the spirit.

Cool eh!

yet God didn't ask Mary to have an abortion. — Agent Smith

Perhaps, but she wasn't after child support, nor was Jesus made from a weekend of fun, so perhaps not the same value attachment there eh.

A person is made from an egg and a sperm, from mother and father, not from one. — Gregory

Interesting; considering your usual religious take on things. I would have put you in for going with the one becomes two, the two becomes three, etc. Ergo, we all come from one.

who doesn't want to shoot a judge now and again?

I agree, there are no heroic measures in place to keep staff and patients safe. Healthcare was already very broken before 2019, at least in my country. I hope it collapses and someone has the leadership and spine to rebuild it more functionally.

Yes. When we all go home and the healthcare system grinds to a halt, remind yourself of that.

Or we could try establishing civilization on Earth first — James Riley

Ok, but what do you give our chances of achieving it on earth? Perhaps on the moon or Mars, with the threat of dramatic and irrecoverable death overshadowing any potential disagreements, some sort of functional civilization could occur as we would be required to work together to stay alive. The immediacy of potential death would eliminate the "break off on my own" approach.

Sure. However once you are no longer able to work unless you comply, you cannot attend a gym unless you comply, nor a swimming pool, nor travel to other countries, nor other provinces, you cannot board a plane unless you comply...all of that tends to remind one that they are indeed free, until someone decides they aren't.

We are all free to do anything we are allowed to do. Take that however you will.

So your real qualm isn't with mandates but the quality of the PPE provided to you — Kenosha Kid

No, my main qualm is with mandates. My minor issue is that we have crap quality stuff to work with. A napkin is a useful as my mask.

Covid is real. And Anthrax exists in the soil around us. Both are true, and verifiable if one wants to look. Both illicit the same level of concern in me. The global covid response is a concern, but more annoying than crippling. The media's constant yammering about it is annoying, but I can turn that crap off, so no worries there. Eventually work will insist on something that I will draw the line at, then I will walk away and do something else. The funny part is, healthcare workers are resigning at unprecedented rates, attributed to "covid burn out", but most of the people I know that left the industry did it because they were tired of the shit being pushed by the employers about covid and the covid response. I do not know one that left because of Covid itself. But no one covers that, we are all leaving due to covid.

AS for millions dying of covid. Yes, millions died of covid. And TB, and the flu (less since covid) and all sorts of other shit. It's what people do, they die. Currently the waitlist to die is at 8+ billion.

It's Guy Fawkes — Kenosha Kid

yep, it is. Thanks for reminding me.

There's a nutcase nurse living opposite us who also bangs on like this. — Kenosha Kid

Maybe listen closely to what they are saying, and before assuming they are a nutcase, consider the implications if they are in fact being entirely accurate. Scary stuff.

reduce the liability you pose to others — Kenosha Kid

Seriously, do your research. I pose no more threat to others than I ever did. You could sit across the table from someone with active Covid for a nice 2 hour romantic dinner and your chances of catching Covid increases by a whopping 5%. Not a 5% chance of catching covid, just 5% greater than before. Factor in that 80% of the population won't even know that they had (or have) the virus and the end result barely registers on the attention scale.

Are you wearing it wrong, or is it just the crapness of the mask? A good mask, worn correctly, will reduce your aerosol spray into, and from, your environment, which is the principle mode of transmission. What worries me is that you are supposed to take care of patients and don't know this — Kenosha Kid

Crappy mask worn right. I am not allowed to wear the proper mask. I do in fact know my business, however, just because I know what is what does not mean that I am supplied with, or allowed to use, the proper PPE. Welcome to modern healthcare. My area is just now accepting that this thing "could be airborne". Seriously, that was announce early last week. Now they are reconsidering their masks. Only 20 months late.

That kind of mask, sure.

Hell I support wearing a mask for valid reasons. I wear an N95 and goggles when I suction any patient on a ventilator, because it is appropriate to do so at the time. I wear full face covering and particulate filtration when I work in old attics because of all the unknown things that could be up there and the insulation particles in the eyes suck ass. I wear full Bunker Gear and SCBA when I am actively fighting a fire. And I wear a full Hazmat suit when I am in a hazmat situation. All masks, all PPE, all when appropriate. I wear none of that shit when I go shopping, because it isn't necessary.

Currently I have a useless piece of crap mask on my face because I am at work and I will be fired if I don't. Does it protect me? No. Does it protect my patients? No. Does it make my employer appear to be doing something regarding the pandemic? Only to the uninformed, but yes, it has positive optic value. One benefit it does have is that I am mostly protected from halitosis, which is a bit of a problem in healthcare, although good gum will usually cover all but the nastiest patient's halitosis.

I wish I could wear a Guy Fawkes mask at work! That would be a hoot.

Government : "No one can get you if you are in this strong, safe metal barred safe zone. And there is all this fresh air. See? Safe and secure, and no one can get you."

Joe Public : " Wow, look at that! There's even room for my kids. Sign us up!"

Yep, he was. However...Virus, general panic, government restrictions, martial law, curfews, state sponsored propaganda, single message television constantly reminding people how unsafe they would be without the restrictions. I see huge similarities...but less classical music through the public address systems.

Sadly most people are not only unwilling to fight for their freedom, they offer it up willingly for the perception of safety.

Disturbingly similar to V for Vendetta...Guy forks mask anyone?

Agreed. The vast majority of people do things that have inherent risk in them, because they choose to, for whatever personal reasons. What I find interesting is that these same people cannot seem to tolerate this behaviour in others, despite doing it themselves. Hypocrisy anyone?

They are literally premised on fear and ignorance — NOS4A2

The basis of the entire pandemic response.

You might as well argue that we shouldn't advise someone to fly rather drive across the country in winter because it's possible that the plane will crash — Michael

You capture the problem quite nicely. Flying is statistically safer than driving, however there is absolutely no aspect of control with flying, unless you are the pilot. If one does want to rely on the competence of others, with no ability to change the outcome, then flying is the way to go. However, if one would rather own the responsibility of risk, have the potential to change, or at least react, to any adverse conditions that arise while in motion, then driving is hands down the way to go.

Personally I hate flying. Absolutely no control involved in flying, just sit in your chair and hope that none of your pilots are feeling suicidal on that trip, because if they are, by the time you know about it, everyone on board is already screwed. I would rather drive and the mileage on my vehicles reflect that.
I will not advise someone to fly. I will always advise them to do what they are comfortable with. Fly, drive, walk, whatever. It is their call because any consequences of that choice is on them, not me.

Yep. The Nazis were working toward their common good.

Common good: the mother of all evil.

Only an epidemiologist has valuable input here? Ok. Would everyone not an epidemiologist please no longer contribute, I look forward to the silence.

Maybe we can have that applied universally as well, and shut the media up too.

I like it!

I absolutely agree. Healthcare should have determined a clear course of action and moved forward with it. Rather than mandating vaccination, open honest discussion should have occurred to provide the best solution for everyone. Unfortunately that did not happen, fear and media collaborated to create an environment of uncertainty. Now open and honest discussion, questioning of information to provide clarity, is interrpreted as being anti-vaccination, when it is more accurately defined as informed vaccination or informed declining of vaccination. I have never told a patient not to get vaccinated, I have advocated that they make the best informed decision they can based on their values and supported whatever final decision they made. I find it disheartening that this is now determined to be anti-vaccine.

my job is to provide emergency healthcare to those who need it. Emergency rooms, ICU and critical patient transport is my playground and specialty.

I believe in informed consent and personal autonomy. I advocate for my patient, for best outcomes according to the patient's values and their family's values if the patient cannot convey their wishes. I do not follow public opinion for patient care. I follow best practices, peer reviewed journals to guide practice, and clear defensible ethics. Not mob rules. Panic makes for poor policy which leads to disaster.

sure. But are you going to keep forking over money for nothing? Paying little for nothing is still a waste of money.

Princess, there is no war.

Nothing has changed. There is always a bug waiting to get you, always something new and terrible. This time the argument is happening publicly, that's all. Everyone has an opinion, but very few play in actual field. So if all the spectators can shut the hell up, those of us actually involved, trained and formally educated for this stuff, can get to work and do our job.

The war analogy is demeaning to those who actually fought in wars. Adjusting your mask while ordering a latte has nothing to do with war. Anyone that thinks they are comparable is delusional.