But perhaps this is in the realm of things like the obsession to pay the most for health care anywhere for a mediocre health care system, something I cannot wrap my mind around. — ssu

Let's not insult health care workers. The care is fine just not accessible because too many people are uninsured.

I have no clue which company this is and not enough time to find out!

The US and Biden's push into Ukraine is the single greatest threat to the world since the Cuban Missile Crisis - not Trump.

Trump has been elected on a strong platform to end this war.

As Trump moves into office, we see the Biden administration deliberately taking steps to deteriorate the situation in the hopes of making peace impossible.

Is partisanship the sole reason you're avoiding this pink elephant, or do you really not see it? — Tzeentch

I do believe you should focus more on the situation at hand, not lament the mistakes of the past. The proxy-war in Ukraine has a long history with both players escalating over time. The reality is Trump is not exactly a stable factor where it concerns foreign policy. Since the EU is not sufficiently integrated militarily to deter Russian aggression, Trump is not making our world safer. Zelensky realises this and immediately signalled a willingness to negotiate.

Of course, it could lead to long term stability at least on the European continent, where it concerns Russia, if we ensure the EU has a strong role in establishing the peace deal and it becomes more a tri-partite treaty than bilateral.

If only the Democrats were "anything else".

Russia was open to negotiations all the time if that meant they wouldn't have to fight to keep the land they have. The recent overtures by Zelensky and, for instance, Germany for negotiations are informed by a position of weakness because they do not expect Trump to continue to support the war effort in Ukraine. Nobody is falling in line, they're hedging against Trump's erratic behaviour.

That's funny. Why don't you look up under who's term it peaked? Bush. Who began de downward trend? Obama.

Well, he certainly can't be elected again. That would require a constitutional amendment which ain't happening. — Michael

Ahahaha, rule-based thinking has never stopped dictators. If he's so inclined he will look for other ways. I personally think he's in it for himself, vanity, greed, etc. and therefore don't think there's a particularly high chance but even so "culture eats rules for breakfast".

Tulips are originally Turkish. :yum:

I might indeed be mixing things up. Formal logic was something I did in my own time over 20 years ago but haven't really used it since then. Happy to brush up again though, since I'm considering making a career switch where argumentation becomes more important again. Any online tips you'd give?

My point is that we know that If P then Q, where P = A and Q = not-A, implies a contradiction where P is true because Q will be true and both A and not-A will be the case. It is counterintuitive to assert that "if it rains then it doesn't rain" and "it rains" therefore "it doesn't rain" is a valid argument. So formal logical inference appears to ignore the obvious rejection any normal person would have with the natural language sentence without going through a logical proof (the resulting logical contradiction is rather obvious).

So we know the premisse is unsound but it seems to be of another order when it's unsound due to a logical contradiction then say because it fails to take into account the fact there are additional causes for a consequent to happen (any time really where correlation isn't causation). I guess "formal" in formal logic really is the main point of that system.

What? And end up with the same insanity as the USA? No thank you. We do need to make some hard choices on industry. Vertical integrated industries for anything space- and self-defence related. Import duties on anything not produced in line with our sustainability and human rights practises as that simply creates an unfair competitive advantages compared to EU producers; and simply start producing a lot more ourselves again with no reliance on anybody else but the EU states.

I look forward to the EU stepping into part of the power vacuum being created.

So why do we accept as logically valid a premisse that will result in a logical contradiction under one value of the antecedent? It seems we do this because of formal rules and in theory we could change those. What would be the implications if we would say for any given argument under all values of the antecedent the conclusion may not result in a logical contradiction or the argument will be deemed invalid?

@Banno maybe you have thoughts about that too?

It's not accurate to consider regret a major factor. It's 1 to 2%.

There was an extensive and interesting discussion about transgenderism between @fdrake and @Isaac here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13830/positive-characteristics-of-females/p1

I already did previously. There's no contradiction in that case because it is vacuously true. But that's a bit of a bait and switch.

I guess my gripe is that I would expect any statement to be logically consistent under all values of the antecedent. The fact that logical inference ignores it because under one of the values of the antecedent it does make sense is all very counter-intuitive to the point I feel the need to reject it.

There's a joke in there about wanting minimal government.

Clearly, lots of people are gullible and vote against their interests. Yet there is also manifest stupidity and ignorance. — Manuel

These people are no more stupid or ignorant than those voting for Democrats.

Fuck me. — 180 Proof

Seems gratuitous since you've just been fucked by several million of your countrymen.

Give me liberal tears!

That remains to be seen.

"All is chaos under the heavens, the times are excellent." Not sure quoting a mass murderer for wisdom is wise but everybody getting their panties in a twist because Trump won; remember it. There are opportunities here. Here's my list:

1. As the U.S. scales back on environmental regulations, the EU could solidify its global leadership in climate action. This moment could further the European Green Deal and enhance the EU's position as a hub for green technology innovation and investment. By strengthening partnerships with like-minded regions (e.g., Canada, Japan), the EU could lead a coalition to tackle climate change and attract global investors focused on sustainability.

2. The EU could also capitalize on a more protectionist U.S. approach by attracting foreign investors looking for stable markets.

3. The EU can leverage its more stable stance to exert greater influence in institutions like the UN, WHO, and WTO. By doing so, the EU could shape international policy in ways that align with its standards on trade, human rights, and environmental protection.

4. Given Trump's prior skepticism toward NATO and multilateral security, the EU could take a stronger stance on European defense and autonomy. This might involve further funding for the European Defence Fund and strengthening PESCO (Permanent Structured Cooperation).

5. Policies may lead to a U.S. shift away from renewable energy production, possibly leading to increased oil and gas prices. The EU may want to fast-track its transition to renewables to mitigate potential price shocks and reduce reliance on external energy sources, especially in a time of political instability.

@ssu anything to add?

Too much noise to do any predicting. I was hoping along with you.

As Mao said: "All is chaos under the heavens, the times are excellent." The EU is too inflexible to take advantage of this but we know Russia, India and China will. And of those I'd rather have India do well than the other two.

:cry:

I think the similarities between Clinton's situation and Harris is quite different. — Manuel

That sentence doesn't really make sense but I still understand what you're saying; for one, people actually like Harris.

Nice tu quoque fallacy there. What a tool you are.

No I think you did understand me and we are disagreeing. I find the discussion interesting and I see where people are coming from concluding the argument is valid. If I approach it formalistic I would say: normal modus ponens, fine, valid, because I don't care what it says.

However, the reductio shows that the first premise is unsound but why is it unsound? It's unsound because it's logically contradictory. If A then not-A necessarily implies A and not-A, which tells me the argument must be invalid.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Aside from the truth US elections are there for Democrats to lose, we can probably add the GOP doesn't understand women.

Terms are ambiguous but it's also not modus ponens. More a play on words than logically interesting.

No, with a false antecedent the conditional is true, sometimes described as 'vacuously true'. It's the conditional that is deemed true when the antecedent is false. — TonesInDeepFreeze

:up: :100:

I think the error is yours though. Truth tables say nothing about the Truth of the statement but are about consistency of logical systems. Yes, there are different formal representations and truth tables but that's more about convention. With a false antecedent, the consequent is vacuously true. But that situation, where the antecedent is denied, is irrelevant because the second premise assumes A to be true. And it necessarily follows from the first premise that not-A is simultaneously true. This is self-contradictory and violates the LNC.

It violates the LNC, which is foundational and introduced by Aristotle before modus ponens so he certainly didn't intend that the inference can work.

It all defies reason because it is about feelings.

Trump hasn't done shit other than having a perfect sense of the direction in which US democracy is falling. Trump is a symptom of the righteous distrust common people have of the political elites and rich people. Distrust informed by their moral intuition that something simply isn't right and most things are unfair. This will not go away unless the US government repairs and regains trust by - I don't know - actually improving the material conditions of all its citizens instead of those that are already rich enough to lobby for favours.

And that distrust is fueled by selfrighteous pricks decrying they are deplorables, garbage or aren't voting in their self-interest, thereby really only affirming that they don't trust "the other side" and therefore aren't to be trusted by "the other side". The best way to win someone's trust, after all, has always been to call the other side "dumb shits". :roll:

They're tone policing, cry-bullying, joy-killing, emotionally incontinent hacks, whose attempts at imposing their "Progressive" theocracy onto the rest of us has created a society in which we're more lonely, loveless, depressed and stupid than ever, and in which our youth are more lost and hopeless than ever. — Chisholm

Give me liberal tears!

Not by their own standards, I'm sure.

How is it so hard to draw the line? Are people so morally illiterate to not be able to judge if Trump is suitable as a presidential candidate or not? — Christoffer

You find it difficult to answer this question? If so, you're not paying attention. Hint: they're not morally illiterate.

Wasn't there a speech from Harris but Biden made a dumb comment and now I'm having flashbacks from the deplorable basket case that was Hillary?

Make no mistake: Democracy is on the ballot. — Wayfarer

Not really, since the US hasn't been a democracy for quite some time. You have to travel to Europe for that; although even there it is in decline in many countries.

Years ago when Obama was running against Hillary, I predicted his candidacy early and his win as president. I felt like I could make that call based on the available information. Everything since Obama is so distorted by noise, I cannot manage it any more.

We will have a first referendum on the quorum necessary for a referendum to pass. It's questionable this is resolved because it doesn't answer if this referendum meets the quorum. If it is resolved, the quorum will be set high for fear or tyranny of the majority. Then a referendum on the question. Then the quorum will not be met and there will be deadlock. A new referendum will be started if people should be obligated to vote in a referendum. If it passes, the deadlock is resolved if not the deadlock remains. And probably not, because those in favour of "Free-dumb" don't think we should obligate people. Instead, they will go back to the first referendum and see if we can lower the quorum. 80% of people just zoned out by the time the 3rd referendum is started.

I think the whole idea grossly overestimates people's interest in having an opinion on every political subject all the time when they are busy getting shit done - like writing obvious critiques of dumb ideas. Even voting once every 4 years is apparently too much of a hassle for large segments of the population.

Not sure this has been mentioned but a referendum is usually a binary choice, greatly influenced by the question asked. In almost all cases it reduces complex problems to idiotic simplicity. If the Brexit referendum would've been worded as follows: would you like more inflation, and more hassle to travel to Europe, yes or no? The result would've been different.