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On AntinatalismSentiment? What sentiment? I’m just making a statement of fact. Do I know my kids would not be miserable wretches despite my best efforts? No and neither do you. So this establishes that bringing someone into existence is a risk. — khaled
The risk to you or the unborn child?
You force someone to live for 80 years with very high emotional consequences on both parties if they try to commit suicide early while risking they have a miserable life. All of this for no good reason. — khaled
What's to say that your child or whatnot is going to do that? -
Almost 80 Percent of Philosophy Majors Favor SocialismI strongly dislike Marx, by the way. I don't equate him with socialism at all. — Terrapin Station
Can you elaborate on this? I think most phil or econ majors tend to equate Marxist ideology with socialism. -
Almost 80 Percent of Philosophy Majors Favor SocialismThose whose focus is on business and the earning of money (the mundane fields of finance, law, and accounting), don't seem as needful of the social pooling of money for the general welfare. — Hanover
Ok, this at least makes more sense to me in that the philosopher is concerned with the welfare of the entire community they live in instead of solely their own welfare. So, under such an understanding, the issue then boils down to what is ethical? -
Almost 80 Percent of Philosophy Majors Favor SocialismIt's because philosophy majors have no ability to turn their craft into making money, but remain certain that they have something valuable (although monetarily of little value) to impart upon society, so they ask those whose labors actually result in financial success to provide for them so that they can enjoy the benefits of society they could otherwise not afford. — Hanover
Really? So, you're basically saying that philosophers can't make money from their trade, therefore they need government handouts to support them? -
Almost 80 Percent of Philosophy Majors Favor Socialism
It's funny because I went to college to study economics. (Compare econ majors with phil one's in the graph).
The underlying sentiment of most of my professors was that Marx was wrong. Now, that I am out of college, and pretty much philosophize in my free time, I feel like socialism at its core is an ethical form of government, as opposed to capitalism. Perhaps, that's why it is so favorable with phil majors? -
On Antinatalism1- Do I know my children would enjoy their life and find it worthwhile? No. — khaled
But, how is that sentiment for you to decide?
2- Would I mind if someone used any resource of mine (money, time, etc) without my consent to do something HE/SHE believes is worthwhile with it? Yes. — khaled
This is wallowsome. How is that a bad thing?
The basic principle is: it is wrong to act in a way that WILL risk harming someone in the future (for no good reason). — khaled
How does this make sense if you can only speak for yourself? -
There is no Real You.I concur. Is reality wrong? — god must be atheist
Maybe people don't like it (reality) being right all the time? -
There is no Real You.Why do people focus on questions as to whether something is real or not? Something about such questions seems very fishy.
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There is no Real You.
Yes; but, don't memories serve as some sort of proof that we actually have something that constitutes an identity? -
What is laziness?
I don't think it makes sense to talk about motivation or stuff like that in isolation. Many things actually facilitate and maintain motivation. Such as, is the thing I am doing really meaningful or has some value to me? If not, then I don't feel motivated to complete the task. If it's about my child or someone I care about in doing something, then I suppose I might find motivation in abundance to make money for them.
I don't think there is anything in the world that is more motivating than caring for one's children. In rare cases even the will to live is superseded over the needs of one's offspring. Just an example. -
Pig Brains in a Vat?Those are adorable!! — god must be atheist
With this I agree.
I would so much like to make mad and passionate love to them! — god must be atheist
This is somewhat wallowsome...
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Pig Brains in a Vat?They (pigs) are smarter than dogs, and they are not cute. — god must be atheist
Pigs can be quite cute. Just look at my merry friends over here:
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Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnRow, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream
Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream
Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream
Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnThe few dreams I remember are sometimes quite stunningly creative in content, if not always particularly logical. More creative than my waking mind. So it seems correct that more/different parts of the brain maybe involved. To be able to direct the dream and harness that creativity would be wonderful. — Devans99
Yeah, I see dreams as more psychedelic than any drug you could take. Many people think that mind-expanding drugs are some answer to spiritual concerns; but, I think dreams are the pinnacle of spirituality in terms of completely original and genuine self-generated content.
Praise be upon you my unconscious mind!
I wonder if the subconscious is a different person in some sense. One body, two minds. You meet the other 'you' directly only in your dreams. I think some of my dreams I can interpret as desires (that I presumably share with my subconscious). — Devans99
Freud and many psychologists thought the same. But, I don't think that the proper conclusion to arrive at is that the unconscious mind is in some sense separate or detached from the conscious mind. What do you think? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnAnother interesting question is what they get up to while you're awake and unconscious of them. — unenlightened
The unconscious doesn't get much love, despite all the work it does for 'us'. I think, consciousness is a very narrow and limited aspect of being... Who doesn't enjoy their dreams? I know I do.
Following up on what you quoted, it seems to me that the notion of one's identity is formed and shaped through both conscious and unconscious methods. The seeming 'intent' or 'desire' of these dream entities, which play a game of masquerade by utilizing different faces/characters/people picked up from conscious experience shows that having an identity is not a unitary or holistic facet of experience, despite the best efforts of the conscious mind.
What are your thoughts about the notion of identity correlated with conscious or unconscious experience? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their Own
Sure. Though, if you're interested in lucid dreaming, there's a bunch of websites that have information about different techniques and methods to induce a lucid dreaming state.
I suspect that in most dreaming states, that the mind has more resources available to analyze or be able to determine differing thoughts and stuff.
One interesting question is that if dream entities do indeed have an intent of their own, then what is their goal or 'desire' to get out of interactions with them? What do you think? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnI think you should learn how to lucid dream - it sounds great - never managed it myself. — Devans99
I bought this a while back, still waiting for it to get delivered:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arenar/iband-eeg-headband-that-helps-you-sleep-and-dream -
On Wallowing
Got it. I thought it could have been looked over given that this is the Lounge. But, now I know! -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnDoes anyone care to analyze a recurrent dream I've been having for the past 10 years?
Ever since I moved out of Europe, when I turned 18, I've been having one too many dreams of still living in Poland. It's constantly about my education and closest friends there in 12'th grade throughout high school... It's getting tiresome dreaming so much about another country where I'm imagining myself as happy or whatnot. I'd say on average I dream about living back there 3-4 times a week, and all these dreams are happy ones. It's getting tiresome trying to push aside the apparent message of these dreams, being that I want to move back there.
But, my nagging suspicion is that if I were to move back there, then I'd just as well dream about being in California again.
What's the deal here? Should I listen to my dreams and move back there? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their Own
Well, I find dreams to be too emotionally charged and insightful to simply dismiss. They are "real" in regards to our inner world at play, don't you think?
Interesting dream. -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnA very long time ago, I had a dream, where this issue was raised.
It was a very bittersweet dream for me. I say this because I confronted a dream character with my awareness that they weren't real. To which this dream character replied that they were my friend.
I was sad that they were both real and not real at the same time... -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnWhat do you think the stupid dream (above) means? — Bitter Crank
No idea, that's what's so fascinating about dreams, is that they are manifestations of the psyche at work... Usually, one can surmise some form of narrative or context about the dream that allows one to endow it with meaning. -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnDreams occur in a state of awareness with little to no sensorimotor constraints and diminished frontal cortex activation. Neuro-imaging data which contrasts lucid dreamers with non-lucid dreamers while sleeping is suggestive of higher frontal cortex activation in lucid dreamers. Lucid dreamers feel agency in dreams, non-lucid dreamers do not. — fdrake
I suppose it's interesting in that agency unifies one's personality into a unitary entity instead of the dream characters running amok in dreams. What do you think about the relationship between agency and identity?
Something to take away here is that the neural architecture which supports our sense of self and cognitive agency is actually doing a lot of stuff, and volitional control is but one of many distinct (but overlapping and correlated) functions it exhibits. — fdrake
What would you say are the implications of this line of reasoning? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their Own
Yes, I think actors who play roles, have a higher level of awareness or ability to integrate these different personalities than other people. Heath Ledger is said to have died from allowing the Joker to take hold of his identity. What do you think? -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnOur dreams should have characters that act as if they had minds of their own even though they do not, since that is the kind of world we live in. Could we have a dream where we were aware (in the dream) that all the characters were merely projections of our dreaming mind, and themselves knew it? — Bitter Crank
It's just illogical that we treat these dream entities as having a mind of their own in my opinion; but, in principle, I suppose you can have a dream where one knows the other characters are a figment of one's imagination. -
Dream Characters with Minds of their OwnWell, just elaborating on the OP. Dream characters have come to symbolize ancient spirits, shamans, archetypes, and all that sort of stuff. I think those labels are quite overblown, despite these dream characters having some sort of agency over themselves very often. It's paradoxical to think that we have different "people" living in our heads; but, seemingly this is a bona fide sort of evidence for the existence of some sub-conscious volitional aspect of the mind.
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I Simply Can't Function Without My Blanket!Explain yourself. — StreetlightX
Well, I believe that the child understands the context of the word "function" by the verbal tone/pitch and whatnot along with the intension of the speech act by her mother in the story.
It is through, or even primarily through knowing the performative intension of the function of "I cannot function" that allows the person in the story to conclude or decipher the meaning behind the phrase. -
I Simply Can't Function Without My Blanket!What the child has learnt is not 'just' a set of words, but a whole life-context as it were. As Pitkin writes, the child "looked at language and looked at the world and looked back and forth... And the 'world' it looked at was not just a collection of objects... [but] included people, and their feelings and actions, and consequences". And this, understandably, is precisely the kind of thing A.I. can struggle with. — StreetlightX
Psychologism? -
On AntinatalismI can keep going, but I won't. You get the picture. Antinatalism prevents suffering for all, and forcing people into the world. No ONE loses out by not being born, but EVERYONE loses in some way by being born. My inaction to create someone hurts, literally NO ONE. Someone else's action to birth someone, always creates some harm, and if we believe that being deprived is a negative state, there is constant suffering there too. — schopenhauer1
More blatant overgeneralizing and black-and-white thinking. If you don't like those labels, then here's a new one: Your creating one hellova-straw man here. Besides, children don't live in isolation from their parents. Usually, every child has a parent that looks after them and raises them the best they could. That this sentiment doesn't always turn out as true is another matter. -
Context principle (Frege) and Language game (Wittgenstein)Thanks a lot. I ask because in the wikipedia article on the philosophical investigations they say that Wittgenstein was inspired by Piero Saffra. However the content seems to reflect Frege's line of thinking viz. the CP. Can I download the Philosophical Investigations for free? :smile: — TheMadFool
Saffra impressed Wittgenstein with his gesture that Wittgenstein applauded in the difference between saying and showing, so the CP doesn't quite fit into that description isolated within language only. This can be expanded on by someone more qualified.
Wittgenstein was insisting that a proposition and that which it describes must have the same 'logical form', the same 'logical multiplicity'.
Sraffa made a gesture, familiar to Neapolitans as meaning something like disgust or contempt, of brushing the underneath of his chin with an outward sweep of the finger-tips of one hand. And he asked: 'What is the logical form of that?' — Wikipedia
“Wittgenstein was insisting that a proposition and that which it describes must have the same 'logical form', the same 'logical multiplicity', Sraffa made a gesture, familiar to Neapolitans as meaning something like disgust or contempt, of brushing the underneath of his chin with an outward sweep of the finger-tips of one hand. And he asked: 'What is the logical form of that?'” -
--Norman Malcolm. Ludwig Wittgenstein: A Memoir. pp. 58–59. -
On Antinatalism
I never meant to imply that all antinatalists are all depressed blokes. But, that they are projecting their own concerns about the world onto the rest of humanity, and that this is a form of overgeneralizing, along with black and white thinking to do so.
Shawn
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