If you name your calculator George and program it to have a happy go lucky personality and to ask you about your day, it's worth as a calculator will still only be measured by how well it adds and subtracts. — Hanover

That's not entirely true, because we're not entirely rational beings. Studies show that the devices we use, such as calculators, are typically judged to function better if they're aesthetically appealing, even if they don't actually function better than less aesthetically appealing devices.

In chess, a particular programmed pattern or style of play may throw off a human player for some reason without it actually being a more powerful or deep thinking program.

He’s their folk devil, and they exhibit the religious fervor of a moral panic. — NOS4A2

Have you watched any of the 'stop the steal' protests? The speakers, before indicating where supporters can donate money to the cause, literally do their best to inspire religious fervor in their audience, with countless appeals to God in the fight against evil. Frankly, it's surprising that it's not more effective. I suppose this demonstrates how religious faith is in decline, or rather that it's really about tribalism and not actual faith for many.

The phone conversation between Trump and the Georgia secretary of state is yet more evidence that Trump doesn't need to be demonized. His character and selfish motivations are painfully apparent.

Actually I think that it wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that chess software can more or less simulate emotion. In my recently updated chess.con app, for example, they’ve added ‘personalities’ to the computer matches. Some of them are more aggressive than others or display varying combination (see list of aesthetic factors in my previous post) styles.

I don't see much evidence for "widespread voter fraud", a phrase commonly uttered in the gutter-press. But I understand Trump's paranoia. Entire institutions, even within his own government, have been weaponized against him. So I wouldn't mind seeing an audit of some sort. — NOS4A2

There’ll be insignificant instances of fraud in any election, just like there is petty theft, despite it being illegal. Only “widespread voter fraud” is significant enough to shift an election and I assume that’s the reason for the phrasing.

So you love Trumps paranoia? If it is paranoia then it is incurable. We both know that any audit that didn’t go his way would be defamed as fraudulent.

And it’s not his government, it’s our government. Many Americans love democracy because we understand its potential benefits. You seem to love something else, like autocracy I guess.

I have to admit that some defenses, for example, simply "look" or "feel" good to me. e.g. the Dutch Defense, though it weakens the king side. — Ciceronianus the White

In the wiki article on chess aesthetics that I just looked up I guess the specific aesthetic factor in the Dutch Defense would be paradox, the range of things that violate 'good practice' in chess, for example, the deliberate exposure of one's king.

All the factors:

• Expediency refers to a move's effectiveness in achieving something tangible, like checkmate or a decisive material gain.
• Disguise occurs when a move played (usually the key move) does not expose the solution immediately.
• Sacrifice refers to the exchange of a more powerful piece for a weaker one, but can also mean the exchange of other less tangible advantages, like mobility.
• Correctness simply means the solution should work against any defense. (A plus but not always possible in real games.)
• Preparation means that the aesthetic perceived—say, in a particular tactical combination—was achieved in great part due to the strategic play preceding it.[8]
• Paradox refers to the range of things that violate 'good practice' in chess, for example, the deliberate exposure of one's king.
• Unity refers to the cooperation between pieces toward the attainment of a specific goal (e.g. checkmate, winning material, controlling more space).
• Originality means something the observer has not seen before, and must therefore rely heavily on personal experience.

A far more adept politician would buckle under the public pressure, but instead Trump is doing right by his constituents, most of whom believe Biden is illegitimate and voter fraud affected the outcome. That’s why I love it. — NOS4A2

This seems to imply that you believe there was organized widespread voter fraud because if this were simply another one of his cons it wouldn't necessarily serve his constituent's interests. If that's the case, I'm curious about something. I know there's tons of "evidence" supporting the fraud conspiracy, but why have no conspirators been exposed? Who orchestrated the fraud? Isn't it odd that in two months no culprits have been discovered?

Even the Muller investigation turned up some bad apples and prosecuted them.

It's about sight and pattern recognition, not rationality. — BitconnectCarlos

Indeed, some can play dozens of blind chess games simultaneously.

I recall reading somewhere that aesthetics used to the fashion in chess at some point in history, don't recall what era.

I never said I love “illegal activity”. This is why we get strange conclusions from false premises, or in this case, lies. — NOS4A2

You wrote:

Perfect Trumpian phone call. I love it. — NOS4A2

Whether or not the activity is illegal you express love for this sort of activity. In other words, you love it when a president appears to uses their power to pressure a secretary of state to commit voter fraud. Good people don't love such things. Or perhaps you love it when Trump begs like a whiny dog?

"Apparently engaging in illegal activity". For what, exactly? — NOS4A2

The point isn’t to try convincing you of illegal activity, the point is that you “love” such activity, and that a person who loves this sort of activity is not a good person.

I thought that my stoic journal would be a pain but the first entry last night (program recommends starting a new weekly practice on Sundays) was a breeze because I found while sitting on the couch that I can simply dictate entires on an iPad or iPhone to a cloud document. I hadn’t realized that the iOS dictation software works so well now.

You've called me evil, a liar, a bad man,... — NOS4A2

You’re a proven liar and just wrote “I love it” in response to evidence of the president apparently engaging in illegal activity. Whatever constitutes a “bad man,” you must certainly be in the ballpark.

... and have compared me to almost every animal in a menagerie. What does that make you? — NOS4A2

A comparative zoologist? :chin:

More of the same? When was the last time you’ve heard an audio recording of an American president criminality threaten a Secretary of State to “find” 11, 780 votes?

We strongly suggest doing the planned activity no more than 3 days a week. — Athena

Thinking it through this morning I came to the same plan, or rather rate, of action. I've resolved to practice stoicism this year and the program that I've adopted calls for daily journaling. Seriously doubt that I could keep that up so have decided that a few entries a week for the weekly practices would be doable.

Good luck with your remains care, Athena.

Best of luck with the tidying up, Jack.

Dream killer.

I guess he should have played more golf when they were trying to repeal and replace the ACA, build his wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for, and all during the Pandemic crisis. Hopefully, he's on the course right now.

It’s called mockery, Hiphead. I mock the way you simplify the world and make it small enough to feel as though you can grasp it. You cannot grasp it. It’s beyond reach. If you can accept that then your grasping will end and only you will remain. Naked and afraid perhaps, but alive, and alive as though for the first time.

Second paragraph... still with me?

So it would have been better politically for Trump to veto the bill before the election?

Whaddya bet the China virus hoax stops being a hoax after January 20th.

@NOS4A2 He vetoed the bill, however, it has a veto-proof majority.

I wish he weren't just posturing and actually worked for a better deal, but I think he's too busy undermining American democracy.

No other president has been pathetic enough to posture this way, sure.

Oh right, like this package is sooo unusual. :roll:

Either way it likely it would have passed silently had the president not objected. — NOS4A2

Makes no difference unless it's significantly revised, besides the posturing.

I'll throw out another problem in a Zen context for analysing stories. In the West we have a container model of language. The communication contains the truth. In Zen the point of stories is what they ELICIT. And that's why level of listener and setting are so important. It's not what the story means, it's what hearing the story does - which may include the meanings in the tools that elicit.

You get the 'right answer' or 'right interpretation' in words in your head and that may very likely be an obstacle. — Coben

Insight or intuition is highly valued in Zen, if that's what you're essentially referring to, but it's hardly alien to the West. If you're talking about koans, I don't know much about them. I understand them to be a form of contemplation (meditation).

From the mechanical perspective, the required understanding can be reached pretty much immediately through the use of common sense, by anyone who is at least a bit serious.

If eating too much is giving me indigestion, the solution is to eat less.

If thinking too much is making me nutty, the solution is to think less. — Hippyhead

The problem with relying on common sense is that it can be dangerously simplistic.

We are social beings with the capacity of reason, which means that we must necessarily apply reason to social living, and therefore in order to live well we must develop our reasoning. Trained animals do fit in society, but they can cause a lot of trouble if mismanaged or if conditions change.

It appears to me, like modern western culture has led us down a pathway where the individual person's need to develop the philosophical capacity to discern good from bad is completely ignored, or even hidden from us. It's as if we are taught that this moral capacity just comes naturally, through instinct. We can automatically discern good from bad without the need for philosophical training. It is also implied that the authorities are necessarily correct, or else they wouldn't be authorities. — Metaphysician Undercover

I would go a step further and say that individual moral development is suppressed because moral development leads to independence.

The context of the thread is a Zen Story and what it means. In Zen you will not find it recommended, in fact you will find the opposite, that one sit around and discuss in abstract terms what stories mean that likely to not fit where you are in your process. You will find the other activities, the non-meditation practices or dailty activities, to be practical, grounded, and ones to focus one's attention on. Getting and preparting the food, for example, and being present for that. There are suggestions in every branch of Buddhism I've encountered to focus away from abstract thought and also there is this idea that doing so ABOUT the spiritual ideas and stages and meansing can interfere with growth. — Coben

I think you know that this isn't really true because in all the activities that you list you've neglected to mention things dharma talks and the like, which are quite abstract and full of spiritual ideas. There may be some really austere Zen temples in the world but they're rare, and even so, must still be replete with abstract religious thought, because an essential feature of religion is meaning. Religious clergy of any tradition must supply meaning in the form of abstract spiritual ideas.

If it is just drawing from things that already exist? Wouldn't that just be copying things then and not being original or creative? — Darkneos

Creativity is just one aspect of art, but I think exists in any work of art, more or less. The results of dawing an object as realistically as possible, for example, would unquestionably be original to some extent. Even taking a photograph would be original to some extent, unless all the conditions of the photograph were exactly duplicated, which would be very difficult in most situations.

Have you ever observed a group of artists work from the same subject? The results are wildly different even without them trying to be original or creative.

This awareness creates a situation where you see something without discrimination, without conscious input, without us making it something. So you are seeing something in its original form, — Brett

Non-dual originality, :chin: , an original claim if I’ve ever heard one. :clap:

So our wise and courageous leader will veto, right? :razz:

I’m pretty sure that most people understand that there’s a difference between “being in your head” and the various practices of meditation, and that a person can practice meditation for a time without being in their head and at other times think freely without practicing meditation.

I think it’s true that we can develop a habit of introspective thinking or self-conditioning that is not conducive to meditation, or rather, deep meditation, and that a sustained practice of mental austerity may be most conducive deep to meditation (samadhi, satori, realizing emptiness, or whatever). Nevertheless, there’s really no reason that investigating the practice can’t be beneficial, is there? Religious folk make all sorts of claims and warnings, many of which are known to be false.

They threw everything at Trump and he mostly prevailed—impeachment, fake hate crimes, a hostile press, a violent opposition, investigations into him and his family, riots, organized protests, leaks, big tech and media censorship. — NOS4A2

Who is this "they" that controls government agencies, politicians, the judicial system, the press, BLM?, leakers (that he appointed?), big tech, and online media? The riots were not directed at Trump, btw, and if anything the rioters should hate Biden far more than Trump. Biden admits to "mistakes" but only time will tell if he puts real effort into reform.

I could only imagine what his presidency might have been like had cynical, anti-Trump forces given him a chance. — NOS4A2

More favors for capital and fewer favors for labor, essentially, plus a stupid big beautiful border wall and a massive deficit (despite slashing entitlements).

... and if covid didn't burst the bubble there's a good chance something else would have.

One need not know the truth in order to lie. — creativesoul

So if you were to unwittingly spread a lie that you believe was the truth you would be lying?

As example, imagine for a moment that it was somehow proven beyond any doubt that philosophy is a step backward in addressing these issues? What would be our response? If we were to choose to continue to do philosophy anyway, that would suggest it is the methodology of philosophy which is our priority and not the topic itself. There's no crime in that, but to the degree that were true, we shouldn't expect to make much meaningful progress on investigating the topic, as we're not really that interested in it. — Hippyhead

I shouldn't have to point this out but there are various ways of investigating something, and investigation can be understood as something besides that which is investigated. Investigating a murder, for example, isn't necessarily committing murder, or philosophical discussion about ethics isn't necessarily practicing ethical conduct.

It's foolish to think that investigating something can't be beneficial to the practice of what's being investigated.

The point of any real spiritual teaching is simply to allow you to forget about your own self-importance and just learn to be (a) happy and (b) useful. In order to do that, you have to cut through a lot of social conditioning and various kinds of other crap that has encumbered you from childhood onwards.
— Wayfarer

To me, such statements always raise the question of whether the problem which we are addressing arises primarily from thought content, or from the medium of thought itself. One argument for the later theory is that human psychological suffering would seem to be universally present in every time and place, irregardless of the culture and philosophies of that time and place. — Hippyhead

You’re overlooking the obvious fact that some people are more fucked-up than others, regardless of the culture and philosophies of any time and place.

Interesting.

I guess the Texas lawsuit probably went awesome too, in that it may have helped to generate more donation$ and merchandise sales, as well as giving the Trump herd something motivating to focus on.

On my art therapy course, one of my tutors told me that rationality was my dominant mode, and emotions as the inferior one so I try to avoid over analysing to redress the balance. — Jack Cummins

Perhaps you misinterpreted them, analysis is commonly contrasted with intuition, not emotion.

In terms of 'mistakes', I am often quite surprised by the way in which others, including some on this forum, jump in to point out to people that they are mistaken. It can be dismissive and defensive, and perhaps it is a cover up for lack of certainty. — Jack Cummins

It's an odd thought that a member would jump-in to cover-up their uncertainty.

The recent SpaceX landing is similar to the Texas lawsuit challenging election results?