Apropos, DOJ Deletes Study Documenting Frequency Of Far-Right Violence: Report

I found it only works on a desktop and not an iPad or touch device, FYI.



Your move

The game is afoot.

My point is that it might be procedurally woke to argue power, equity, identity. But it’s not substantively woke to argue whites are being oppressed and women aren’t.

Do you agree with that at least? — Fire Ologist

I agree that it could be difficult to meaningfully argue, though you might have an uncommon argument that looks at it in a unique way.

If you're trying to say that wokeness is like religion in its moralizing, then yes, I completely agree.

Wokeness was the language of OISE in 1997 when I did my initial teacher training, and was the language in the early 2000s when I did my masters of ed.

It feels safe to say that schools have been 'woke' since before the term emerged in popular parlance. Should we not hold these educational leaders - who have failed to curtail abseentism, declinging standards, increasing violence and declines in mental health, students and staff alike, accountable
for these failures? — Jeremy Murray

Absolutely, though it's not clear how much of these failures you're attributing to wokeism. I'm sure that plays a part. Anyway, funny coincidence that my wife did her initial teacher training at about the same time, teaching High School English, in the deep blue state of California.

You asked if I saw the end of woke and I responded to that question. I think the 'woke viewpoint' will continue because once a new and useful perspective is acquired it's difficult to forget, especially if there's an abundance of subject matter to look at from that point of view.

There's a difference between observation and action, however, and identity politics can ultimately be self-serving rather than serving the interests of the marginalized. For example, are "deplorables" actually doing better now than they were before MAGA? Are trans people doing better now than before woke became mainstream? Violence against the trans community is increasing. I imagine it will spike further after the Charlie Kirk incident and the way MAGA is politicizing the tragedy.

Regarding dogmatism, you're free to argue that whites are being oppressed and that women aren't. There is no God-like authority figure to judge you harshly for doing so. It's not a sin.

Clearly woke went mainstream in the 2010s. Why would anyone say otherwise? There must be a reason.

Do you see the “End of woke”? — Fire Ologist

Interpreting events, institutions, and cultural norms in terms of power, inequality, and identity categories became mainstream in the 2010s. I imagine that lens will last as long as it is useful.

[woke] Went mainstream in the 1960s. Institutionalized by 2000s. — Fire Ologist

Went mainstream in the 2010s. I can’t tell what your game is but it’s very late in the game to be playing games.

How is "Cynical Theories"? That's been on my list for a while. Stock I know from Spiked and other Brit heterodox cites, is she worth reading in depth? — Jeremy Murray

It’s been some years but I would say good and worthwhile. Though it was not the intention of either book, I developed somewhat of an appreciation for the more philosophical aspects of wokeness. For instance, the question of why shouldn’t a society bend to the weak? Efficiency, predictability, and hoarding wealth & power are also forms of weakness.

I assume Vivek is not serious. — Jeremy Murray

Political garbage. It can be interesting to dig through the trash on occasion.

"The New Jim Crow" is woke-adjacent, not woke? — Jeremy Murray

Contrary to Fire’s rewriting of history, wokeness doesn’t go back to Karl Marx. It is also rather narrow in focus compared to full-bodied wokeness.

I realized that after my last thundery post about reading stuff that I hadn't read much DiAngelo, so I read this:

"Beyond the face of race: emo-cognitive explorations of white neurosis and racial cray-cray".

It might be the worst thing I've ever read. I mean, I kid, but, honestly? It might be. — Jeremy Murray

Like the Kirk shooting video, I wish I could unsee that.

a kind hearted sort with a sincere Christian faith — Hanover

Are you at all familiar with his, uh, less than kind hearted beliefs? I could compile a list.

Behold Wagner, who would have made the world a temple of sound — yet his temple became a tomb. The German herd bowed to incense, not fire. Nietzsche was dynamite, and walked among the ruins of his organ, planting stars where bells once rang, with a style that dances.

The US is really blowing it when it comes to social harmony, and I have the same sense of wrong when it comes to "in your face" sexuality, even when it is heterosexual. How many remember when our sexuality is a private matter? In the movies it was alluded to but not "in your face". Could there be a relationship between this modern "in your face" sexuality and Woke? — Athena

As long as it's "in your face" in the traditional way, there's no relationship. If it's "in your face" in a non-traditional way—like in a man's face—then the woke red flags start to fly.

If a business is high risk for discrimination claims or whatever and a DEI officer lowers the cost of insurance, it sounds like a good business decision to have one.

Woke is 100 years old in Europe (white men like Marx inspired it). — Fire Ologist

Like saying that I’m super old and am my great great great great grandfather.

Marx + Nietzsche + Freud + Weber
  ↓
Gramsci
  ↓
Frankfurt School (Critical Theory)
  ↓
Foucault, Derrida, Lyotard, Deleuze (Postmodernism)
  ↓
Butler, Crenshaw, etc. (Identity & Gender Theory)
  ↓
Wokeism / Social Justice

Is the only critique of woke to come from the unwoke? — Fire Ologist

Is the only critique of anti-woke to come from the woke?

The latest anti-woke fascist move by the Trump administration is to deny trans their Second Amendment rights. Nevermind the fact that less than 0.1% of mass shooters are trans.

Reactive fury is a counterfeit of power: it shouts, it strikes, and all the while it gnaws its own heart.

Every morality is a shadow cast by power. What matters is not the shadow, but whether the light behind it warms life or withers it.

You Must Change Your Life by Peter Sloterdij

The same basic power dynamics exist in religion. Though he presents it with a joke, Žižek makes a direct comparison between Rabbis and wokesters. Do you think the religious need therapy also?

The emotionally vulnerable are just being exploited and led in destructive circles, because the grift depends on them not finding a proper cure. — Tzeentch

What is the proper cure?

When one reduces one's own historical and/or cultural identity to "subservience to patriarchy", "slavery", etc. the 'other side of the mirror' is that one is indirectly admitting to one's own inferiority. Hence, observing the woke is like watching a dog chase its own tail. — Tzeentch

This doesn't address how "one's wrongdoing paradoxically grants a kind of moral authority."

Žižek underscores the point that morality is power in disguise. The scenario is what Nietzsche calls the “ascetic ideal” — a way of dominating life by turning life-denying values like humility into a source of authority, powerful not in spite of humility but because of it.

LOL, you're getting much better. — AmadeusD

I trained with the best.

How would you explain this phenomenon in a way that differs from Žižek’s interpretation? — Number2018

Nietzsche's master/slave morality.

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Speaking of socio-aesthetic milieus, there was a recent dustup in the culture war over the logo redesign for a restaurant chain. Trump Jr. led the anti-woke charge against Cracker Barrel and Trump Sr. finished it, damaging the brand and forcing them to abandon their rebranding efforts.

It might be noted that rebranding of this kind is a common practice in the evolution of a brand. It's sometimes called logo simplification or brand minimalism, and the basic logic of it simply that brand equity allows simplicity — the more familiar the brand, the less it needs to say visually. A good literally iconic example of this is the Apple logo. When the brand was new the logo was a highly detailed illustration of Isaac Newton under a tree.

What's remarkable about this is that the anti-woke mob was led by the heads of MAGA, and that the rebrand apparently had nothing to do with wokeness.

Textbook refusal to admit it’s a fallacy fallacy.

If some people can do this, all people can do this. — AmadeusD

Classic hasty generalization fallacy.

To be honest, I imagine this the easiest litmus test for whether or not one is doctrinaire, woke or anti-woke. Have you read any books on the subject?

Has anyone tried to read woke? It's intolerable garbage. Judith Butler? Robin DiAngelo? Candy-ass X? — Jeremy Murray

I've only read anti-woke books like Cynical Theories by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay, Material Girls by Kathleen Stock, and really awful ones like Woke, Inc. (on a par with DiAngelo awfulness I imagine). Though I've read some woke-adjacent books like The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander.

Words physically move through the air to ear drums. Intentions do not. — AmadeusD

I think you mean to say that sounds move through the air to ear drums. Words do not. Right?

Your stoicism compelled you to spend time, search my name and Biden’s. I love living rent free. — NOS4A2

That took seconds, the hard part was deciding on an EO graph. And stoicism has been out for ages. I’m a Nietzschean now. Will to power, baby! :strong:

They will pick one misplaced word in my post, attack that, and pat themselves on the back while lauding their personal 'courage'. — Jeremy Murray

You misspelled progpagandist.

Your underhanded attempts to insult are keenly noted, Athena. Ironic to the nth. Particularly when you do not have the gall to actually tag me or address me directly - addressing a third party with your thoughts about one is a sure-fire sign you are not emotionally intelligent. — AmadeusD

The @ symbol in front of your name shows the intention to tag you. Must be a technical glitch that the link isn’t working.

And btw, didn’t you say before that words can be given or are you walking that back also?

I guess it’s an inside joke.

I think that is an example of poor emotional intelligence. — Athena

At core it seems to imply that an individual is an independent being. Nothing could be further from the truth.

@NOS4A2

The first post listed in the search for your mentioning "Biden" (743 instances) is your protesting his excessive use of executive orders...

Biden has been signing EO’s like a madman. He has almost signed as many EO’s in his first two weeks as FDR did in his first month. According to Biden’s own words this is dictator shit.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/03/963380189/with-28-executive-orders-signed-president-biden-is-off-to-a-record-start

But who cares? At least he doesn’t make mean tweets. — NOS4A2

Yet you think "all forms of protest are stupid."

Oh, and:


It would be smart of you to protest Trump's excessive use of executive orders also.

I just did a search and there are 743 instances of you mentioning Biden on this public forum. I didn't read any of the posts listed but I assume they express some disapproval or objection.

Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

I just thought it would be funny in a dumb sort of way if you were to defend flag burning as a form of protest like Trump's opponents. Don't mind me.

You’re against the right to safely burn a flag that you own as a form of protest? What other liberties are you against?

They might find it stifling, but it does not seem to follow from this alone that it is necessarily better for those who do find it stifling to act contrary to systems of "external values" in virtue of this fact. It seems that, in at least some cases, it is better to for those who feel stifled to learn to appreciate and enjoy what at first seems stifling. For example, the music student or person learning the art of painting might find their instruction initially stifling, and yet it may help to make them more excellent, and they may learn to love what they have initialy learned under some duress. — Count Timothy von Icarus

There is no escaping the weight of external values, and every student at first confronts the limits of their own abilities. Yet instruction, when it accords with a person’s nature, can serve as a catalyst for self-realization rather than a constraint. What becomes stifling—perhaps in the sense that DE intends—is when a spirit is bent against its grain: when, for instance, one who is inwardly a musician is compelled to devote themselves to science, sculpture, or some discipline for which they feel no inner drive.

It perhaps makes "putting power on a pedestal" less obviously bad (if one judges more conventional, liberal notions of power bad, or at least not desirable in themselves).

To be clear, I was sort of asking if placing high value on wtp or creativity, self-overcoming, and life-affirmation has a downside or will reliably result in meaning.

I haven't determined how meaningful it is to me yet. I'm defiantly interested.

How so?