The right to life of the zygote is in direct conflict with the right to bodily autonomy of the mother; and my point is that the ends do not justify the means, so the mother cannot abort the child as a means towards the good end of upholding their bodily autonomy. — Bob Ross

It’s not just bodily autonomy that’s at stake. If I’m not mistaken, the ultimate goal of Neo-Aristotelianism is human flourishing. There doesn’t seem to be a good argument that making abortion illegal will somehow ameliorate human flourishing in general or for the individuals involved in particular cases. Generally speaking, people seek abortion because they’re not prepared to be caregivers. They reason that they, and a child, are not in a position to flourish.

You have not provided why it would be, e.g., wrong to never sacrifice an ant to save a person other than an intuition you have; which is not sufficient to disprove it. — Bob Ross

If I understand your position at all, basically because a person has a “rational will” and an ant does not.

If abortion contravenes the telos of a zygote, making abortion illegal also contravenes the telos, rational will, or flourishing of the mother and others involved.

Because I must, in order to be a morally good agent, respect a thing relative to its nature; and in order to respect a fellow will, like mine, I must treat them as an end in themselves and never a mere means. — Bob Ross

I don’t know what you mean by a means to an end. Does anyone deliberately get pregnant and have an abortion as a means to some end?

Anyway, sure, we value what is like ourselves. That makes sense.

Making abortion illegal dramatically infringes on the will of mother and others involved. Wouldn’t a good moral agent respect the will of a pregnant woman?

Ethics doesn’t care what you feel: it cares about what moral reasons you have. — Bob Ross

Feelings have a nasty habit of influencing our moral reasoning.

Abortion is always immoral… — Bob Ross

Neo-Aristoelianism doesn’t appear to take a firm position on the issue, not being based on moral universalism or divine command. It seems within the sphere of virtue ethics that arguments could be made for legal abortion supporting human flourishing better than making it illegal. It's not like there are no negative consequences of making abortion illegal.

By the way, what is the reasoning for placing high moral value on "rational will."

Technically, neo-aristotelian. The part I was discussing was Aristotelian in nature; but you pointed out some other point that Aristotle made, assuming you are right, about souls. I am not sure he actually believed that, and don't want to re-comb through all his literature to find out. — Bob Ross

So your view follows Neo-Aristoelianism in believing that abortion is wrong because it interrupts the natural potential of the fetus to become a virtuous, rational human being, which contravenes its telos and human flourishing.

I feel that it's wrong also, though I'm not anti-abortion. Are you anti-abortion or would you support making it legal up to, say, thirteen weeks (when over 90% are performed)?

Yeah, I don't buy that (sorry Aristotle). — Bob Ross

Though your objection to abortion is based in Aristotelianism?

The result is that the foam at their mouths get frothier while no one else really cares until they do something stupid, like assassinate a candidate. — NOS4A2

By they I assume you mean Soros funded radical left transgender cannibals.

I think that evolution and biology are the groundings for Teleology: I don't think that there needs to be an agent that designed it for there to be design. — Bob Ross

Or for there to be a soul. Aristotle believed a fetus in early gestation has the soul of a vegetable, then of an animal, and only later became "animated" with a human soul by "ensoulment". For him, ensoulment occurred 40 days after conception for male fetuses and 90 days after conception for female.

their Telos dictates that they will develop rational capacities — Bob Ross

Would you say that ‘DNA’ could replace “Telos” in this sentence?

What??? — Bob Ross

In writing about personhood you contrasted us with other species, saying that we possess a "rational Telos" that other species lack, and this rational telos is what grounds human zygotic right to life. Are you suggesting that rational telos is somehow virtuous, or maybe suggesting that human zygotes should have the right to life simply because they’re like you (instinctually valuing what is like you)?

Traditionally, a rational will; i.e., a sufficiently free will. That is a serious and impactful difference between humans and other species: most, if not all, other species lack the capacity to go against their own nature and inclinations such that they are motivated by pure reason.

Traditionally, a being which has a Telos such that it will have, if not already has, a rational will are called persons (because their nature marks them out to be such); and their will must be respected.

More technically, a being which has a such a "rational Telos" is not necessarily a person but, rather, will be; and their nature marks them out as such; and this is what grounds their rights (and not whether or not they currently are a person). — Bob Ross

Strangely, you seem to be saying that the nature (capacity for reason and abstract goals) which allows abortion is what grounds the right to not be aborted.

You are making it sound like both republicans and democrats see eye-to-eye on abortion.... — Bob Ross

No, I’m simply pointing out the fact that abortion has been on the ballot in seven states since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and in each instance, in red states and blue states, anti-abortion advocates have lost. And again, many more states will vote on the issue next month.

I don't think that is true at all. Red states are predominantly conservative; and conservatives are not pro-choice. — Bob Ross

It’s true, and it’s something that you can easily verify for yourself.

When the right to abortion is on the ballot, it wins. It wins in red states that voted for President Donald Trump. It wins in counties President Joe Biden lost by more than 20 points. It wins when popular Republican officials campaign for it and when they ignore it. And it wins even when the outcome has no immediate effect on abortion access.
— Politico

Many more states will vote on it next month. Some Republican lead legislatures in red states prevent it from being on the ballot. Why? See above.

There have been votes; and red states vote no; and blue states vote yes. There is no consensus. — Bob Ross

Without checking, from what I recall this is not true. Since the Dobbs decision, when there’s a vote on the ballot in red states it goes pro-choice. Legislatures in red states don’t always allow the issue to be voted on, however.

The point is not whether or not one can tell if it is a human being — Bob Ross

I think we should be able to tell if something is a human being if we’re calling it a human being.

It is really weird, to me, to say that it is not a new member of the human species. — Bob Ross

This is an image of in vitro fertilization. It may be before or after fertilization. You can't tell if it's a new member of the human species, can you?

A few chapters into Moby Dick by Herman Melville.

Such beautifully rich writing. Surprising to learn that his work wasn't well received while he was alive.

We actually do see stress responses in fetuses around 18 months — frank

Shouldn't you guys check a bit sooner?

Per CBC theory, cells are conscious in that they have awareness of their environments. How would you show that this view is wrong? — frank

There’s around five pounds of single-celled organisms in the human body that few care enough about to even feed properly.

Beautiful work.

If it bleeds it leads. — ucarr

I asked Chatgpt for another list of fun and interesting historical events:

Preservation of Knowledge by Monastic Orders (Medieval Europe)

• Time Period: 6th–13th centuries
• Religion: Christianity
• Benefit: During the Dark Ages, Christian monasteries in Europe played a crucial role in preserving knowledge. Monks copied and safeguarded classical texts, including works of philosophy, literature, and science, ensuring their survival through the collapse of the Roman Empire and into the Renaissance.

Islamic Golden Age (8th–14th centuries)

• Time Period: 8th–14th centuries
• Religion: Islam
• Benefit: The Islamic Golden Age was a period of flourishing arts, science, medicine, and philosophy. Scholars like Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) made groundbreaking contributions to medicine, mathematics, and philosophy, preserving and expanding upon ancient Greek and Roman knowledge.

The Abolition of Slavery in the British Empire (1833)

• Time Period: 19th century
• Religion: Christianity (Evangelicalism)
• Benefit: Christian abolitionists, including figures like William Wilberforce, were instrumental in the campaign to abolish slavery. Their efforts culminated in the passage of the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833, driven by moral convictions grounded in religious beliefs about human dignity and equality.

The Role of Buddhism in the Spread of Non-Violence (3rd century BCE onward)

• Time Period: 3rd century BCE onward
• Religion: Buddhism
• Benefit: Emperor Ashoka of India converted to Buddhism after witnessing the horrors of war, leading him to adopt non-violence (ahimsa) and promote tolerance, peace, and respect for all life. His reign was marked by ethical governance and the spread of compassionate values across Asia.

Quakers' Contribution to Social Reforms (17th–19th centuries)

• Time Period: 17th–19th centuries
• Religion: Christianity (Quakerism)
• Benefit: Quakers, or the Religious Society of Friends, were instrumental in many social reform movements. They advocated for prison reform, the abolition of slavery, and women's rights, motivated by their belief in equality and peace.

Gandhi’s Use of Religion in India’s Independence Movement (20th century)

• Time Period: Early 20th century
• Religion: Hinduism (with influences from Christianity and Jainism)
• Benefit: Mahatma Gandhi’s philosophy of non-violent resistance (Satyagraha) was deeply rooted in Hindu, Christian, and Jain principles of non-violence. His leadership played a key role in mobilizing millions for India's peaceful struggle for independence from British rule.

The Civil Rights Movement in the United States (1950s–1960s)

• Time Period: 1950s–1960s
• Religion: Christianity
• Benefit: Leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. drew heavily from Christian teachings of justice, equality, and love for one’s neighbor. King’s non-violent approach to combating racial segregation and inequality was inspired by his Christian beliefs, helping to galvanize the movement and pass civil rights legislation.

The Role of the Catholic Church in Mediating Conflicts (Late 20th century)

• Time Period: 20th century
• Religion: Catholicism
• Benefit: The Catholic Church, particularly through Pope John Paul II, played a key role in mediating peaceful transitions, such as in the Cold War era. The Church’s involvement in Poland’s Solidarity movement helped inspire non-violent resistance, contributing to the eventual fall of communism in Eastern Europe.

Buddhist Compassion and Healthcare in Asia (Traditional and Modern Times)

• Time Period: Ongoing
• Religion: Buddhism
• Benefit: Buddhist principles of compassion have fostered healthcare systems across Asia. Institutions like Tibetan Buddhist monasteries have historically provided medical care to the needy, blending spiritual healing with practical medicine. This tradition continues in modern times with Buddhist-inspired hospitals and humanitarian work.

Peacebuilding Efforts by Religious Leaders in Modern Conflicts (21st century)

• Time Period: 21st century
• Religion: Various (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.)
• Benefit: In places like Northern Ireland, South Africa, and the Middle East, religious leaders and interfaith groups have been instrumental in promoting dialogue, reconciliation, and peacebuilding. The role of these leaders has often been pivotal in mitigating conflict and fostering coexistence.

If it’s not another, what is it? An organ? A parasite? — NOS4A2

Do you have an aversion to the term zygote?

Buddhists think that desire is the root of evil for an individual. — Shawn

The usual way of saying that is: Buddhists believe that ignorance is the cause of suffering.

Well, ethics is about what we do. And I'm off to an art exhibit and lunch with friends.

Not something that can be done with a zygote.
— Banno

Every single one of you were zygotes. Luckily no one treated you with such disregard. — NOS4A2

I’m an art lover and don’t recall ever being invited to an exhibit/lunch.

Thanks for backing me up here; but, my intent was to point at the secondary effect — Shawn

What is the first effect? And you’re welcome, even though my intent wasn’t as honorable as a white knight’s.

Rooting out the God-bearer was interesting.

a God-bearing universe is more interesting and more fun — ucarr

The Crusades (11th–13th Centuries)

• Context: The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated by the Latin Church in medieval Europe, primarily to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslim control.
• Weaponization of Religion: The Crusades were framed as holy wars, sanctioned by the Pope, with the promise of absolution of sins for those who participated. This religious justification masked political and territorial ambitions and helped unify various Christian nations against a common enemy.
• Impact: The Crusades led to significant bloodshed, with entire populations being massacred, including Jews and Muslims, and created centuries-long tensions between the Christian and Islamic worlds.

Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)

• Context: The Inquisition was a powerful tool used by the Catholic monarchy in Spain to maintain religious orthodoxy, particularly after the Reconquista (the Christian reconquest of Spain from Muslim rulers).
• Weaponization of Religion: The Inquisition was employed to suppress heresy, expel or forcibly convert Jews and Muslims, and root out any deviations from Catholic doctrine. Accusations of heresy were often used to eliminate political rivals, seize property, and suppress dissent.
• Impact: Thousands of people were tortured, executed, or forced into exile, contributing to the religious and cultural homogenization of Spain. The fear and repression instilled by the Inquisition also stifled intellectual and cultural progress for centuries.

Thirty Years' War (1618–1648)

• Context: The Thirty Years' War was one of the deadliest conflicts in European history, involving most of the major powers of Europe. Although it began as a conflict between Protestant and Catholic states within the Holy Roman Empire, it evolved into a more general political struggle.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to rally support for various factions, with both Protestant and Catholic rulers using religious loyalty to justify war. This religious veneer often hid the deeper motivations of power, territory, and political dominance.
• Impact: The war devastated much of Central Europe, with millions of deaths from violence, famine, and disease. It also led to significant shifts in the balance of power in Europe and a rethinking of the relationship between church and state.

British Colonialism and the Spread of Christianity (17th–19th Centuries)

• Context: During the era of British imperialism, missionaries were often sent to colonized regions in Africa, Asia, and the Americas alongside military and administrative forces.
• Weaponization of Religion: Christianity was used to justify colonial expansion by portraying it as a "civilizing mission." The spread of Christian values was framed as a moral imperative, often dehumanizing indigenous cultures and providing a rationale for subjugation and exploitation.
• Impact: Indigenous cultures and religions were suppressed, and in some cases, nearly eradicated. Religious conversions were often coerced or incentivized, while colonizers seized land and resources, leading to deep social, cultural, and economic upheavals.

Partition of India (1947)

• Context: As British India gained independence, tensions between the Hindu and Muslim populations culminated in the partition of the country into predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to create divisions between communities that had previously coexisted for centuries. Politicians and leaders manipulated religious identities to fuel nationalist and sectarian movements. Religious differences were highlighted to legitimize the creation of two separate states.
• Impact: The partition led to one of the largest mass migrations in history, with over 10 million people displaced and an estimated 1–2 million deaths due to communal violence. The religious divide continues to shape relations between India and Pakistan.

Rwandan Genocide (1994)

• Context: The Rwandan Genocide was a mass slaughter of the Tutsi minority by the Hutu majority, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people in just 100 days.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religious rhetoric was used to incite violence, with some church leaders participating in the genocide or providing support to Hutu extremists. Religious institutions, particularly the Catholic Church, were accused of failing to intervene or actively contributing to the killings.
• Impact: The genocide left deep scars in Rwandan society, with the role of religious institutions during the violence being a subject of ongoing scrutiny and debate.

Islamic State (ISIS) and Jihadism (2010s)

• Context: The Islamic State (ISIS) emerged in the context of the Syrian civil war and the instability in Iraq, proclaiming a caliphate and using extreme violence to establish control over territories.
• Weaponization of Religion: ISIS and other jihadist groups used a distorted interpretation of Islam to justify acts of terror, violence, and the imposition of a brutal theocratic regime. Their rhetoric centered around a religious duty to fight against non-believers (kafirs) and apostates.
• Impact: The rise of ISIS led to widespread human suffering, mass displacement, and acts of terror around the world. The group's actions also fueled Islamophobia and created divisions within the global Muslim community.

Religious Nationalism in Myanmar (2010s–2020s)

• Context: In Myanmar, the Rohingya Muslim minority has faced severe persecution from the Buddhist majority, particularly during a military crackdown in 2017 that was described as ethnic cleansing.
• Weaponization of Religion: Ultra-nationalist Buddhist monks and leaders used religious rhetoric to dehumanize the Rohingya, framing them as a threat to the nation’s Buddhist identity. This was used to legitimize violence and mass displacement.
• Impact: Over 700,000 Rohingya were forced to flee to neighboring Bangladesh, with thousands killed. The religious and ethnic tensions exacerbated by this conflict have contributed to ongoing humanitarian crises in the region.

Salem Witch Trials (1692)

• Context: In colonial Massachusetts, a series of hearings and prosecutions took place against individuals accused of witchcraft.
• Weaponization of Religion: Puritan religious beliefs played a central role in the trials. The fear of witchcraft was rooted in religious doctrine, and accusations were often fueled by social and political tensions within the community. Religious leaders endorsed the trials as a necessary purging of evil.
• Impact: Nineteen people were executed, and many others were imprisoned. The trials reflected the dangers of religious fanaticism and mass hysteria, leading to deep trauma and mistrust in the local community.

A cosmic sentient with unlimited powers may have created humans with their purpose in mind and therefore with human purpose built into their design. — ucarr

May have or has?

Yeah, he lost me too. — Banno

Maybe he thinks you’re irrationally biased against zygotes for some reason.

So though you claim we should be rational about this, you've got nothing rational to say. — frank

You think it's irrational to say that a zygote does not have the same value as a person?

If I stretch the meaning of "inert" a bit and construe "inactive" as being "neutral-adjacent,"... — ucarr

Stretch it all you like. Though why not just be real. Art isn't beyond morality any more than baking or dropping a nuclear bomb. Even if you framed the latter as performance art it would still have purpose.

... then life-and-art-beyond-morality are the sources and causes of morality. — ucarr

Don't know how you got here from what preceeded it.

There is a real allure or reward of stoicisms promise of staying sane or achieving inner calm.
— Shawn

First of all, Stoicism makes no such promise.

Stoicism is not a self-help philosophy.

These ancient (and for the most part a lot better) versions of self-help tools are not the ends of Stoicism but tools to help in one's Stoic tasks: the journey towards the good. — boethius

If I remember right the sign post points to “the good” instead the bad or the lazy because that’s the road which is most inline with our nature (social beings with the capacity of reason), and living inline with our nature leads to wellbeing. Old or new the ultimate goal seems to be wellbeing, which might be characterized as sane and calm.

I’m not following at all. It seems to me that art beyond morality would be morally inert. It might happen to be completely inline with moral norms or be completely against them, or even more incomprehensible, be with and against simultaneously.

I'll venture to surmise from your statement above we agree that art lies beyond morality, the central theme of this conversation.
...
I think the weaponization of religion, unlike the weaponization of art (as propaganda), lies outside of the scope of this conversation. — ucarr

I can mentally separate art for art's sake and utilitarian-based art but to say that art lies beyond morality raises it to a Godly height. How is art lived beyond morality?

If I grant your view, then every single cell in my body is its own human being. Do you see how absurd that is? — Bob Ross

You're not following. I agree with you that it's absurd, or "weird" as I previously said, and to me just as weird as saying that a zygote is "a human."

The seed is not a plant — Bob Ross

I was hoping that you would say something like this because I think it goes to the heart of the matter. You grant a human zygote fully developed human status but don't grant a seed fully developed plant status. Why? Because you don't care about seeds nearly as much as you care about your own species. A million seeds could be destroyed and you wouldn't bat an eye.

Abortion feels wrong. I don't think that anyone would deny that, but the fact remains that a zygote is a zygote and a seed is a seed.

What you are thinking, is that somehow a dog's cell can just become a dog---that's not how that works. — Bob Ross

Believe it or not I’m not quite that stupid. Definitely close but not that dumb.

I briefly reviewed the process before posting. The essence of it is that the DNA in skin cells replaces the genetic material in the normal reproductive process. Canine eggs are used of course but their genetic material is replaced with the genetic material from skin cells. Hence my point, if the genetic material in a fertilized egg is what defines it as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ then the genetic material in a skin cell is also ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ being that it can be used to reproduce a dog or human instead of the genetic material in eggs and sperm.

Maybe you disagree that it is the genetic material in fertilized eggs that defines them as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’. Is that the case?

Do your answers establish a separation between art-in-itself and art-in-itself weaponized? — ucarr

If you mean art-in-itself or 'art for art's sake' and art weaponized, yes I've made that separation.

I'd like to move on to the weaponization of religion. Can religion be meaningful and propaganda simultaneously?

I've asked Chatgpt to provide a few examples:

The Crusades (11th–13th Centuries)

• Context: The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated by the Latin Church in medieval Europe, primarily to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslim control.
• Weaponization of Religion: The Crusades were framed as holy wars, sanctioned by the Pope, with the promise of absolution of sins for those who participated. This religious justification masked political and territorial ambitions and helped unify various Christian nations against a common enemy.
• Impact: The Crusades led to significant bloodshed, with entire populations being massacred, including Jews and Muslims, and created centuries-long tensions between the Christian and Islamic worlds.

Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)

• Context: The Inquisition was a powerful tool used by the Catholic monarchy in Spain to maintain religious orthodoxy, particularly after the Reconquista (the Christian reconquest of Spain from Muslim rulers).
• Weaponization of Religion: The Inquisition was employed to suppress heresy, expel or forcibly convert Jews and Muslims, and root out any deviations from Catholic doctrine. Accusations of heresy were often used to eliminate political rivals, seize property, and suppress dissent.
• Impact: Thousands of people were tortured, executed, or forced into exile, contributing to the religious and cultural homogenization of Spain. The fear and repression instilled by the Inquisition also stifled intellectual and cultural progress for centuries.

Thirty Years' War (1618–1648)

• Context: The Thirty Years' War was one of the deadliest conflicts in European history, involving most of the major powers of Europe. Although it began as a conflict between Protestant and Catholic states within the Holy Roman Empire, it evolved into a more general political struggle.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to rally support for various factions, with both Protestant and Catholic rulers using religious loyalty to justify war. This religious veneer often hid the deeper motivations of power, territory, and political dominance.
• Impact: The war devastated much of Central Europe, with millions of deaths from violence, famine, and disease. It also led to significant shifts in the balance of power in Europe and a rethinking of the relationship between church and state.

British Colonialism and the Spread of Christianity (17th–19th Centuries)

• Context: During the era of British imperialism, missionaries were often sent to colonized regions in Africa, Asia, and the Americas alongside military and administrative forces.
• Weaponization of Religion: Christianity was used to justify colonial expansion by portraying it as a "civilizing mission." The spread of Christian values was framed as a moral imperative, often dehumanizing indigenous cultures and providing a rationale for subjugation and exploitation.
• Impact: Indigenous cultures and religions were suppressed, and in some cases, nearly eradicated. Religious conversions were often coerced or incentivized, while colonizers seized land and resources, leading to deep social, cultural, and economic upheavals.

Partition of India (1947)

• Context: As British India gained independence, tensions between the Hindu and Muslim populations culminated in the partition of the country into predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to create divisions between communities that had previously coexisted for centuries. Politicians and leaders manipulated religious identities to fuel nationalist and sectarian movements. Religious differences were highlighted to legitimize the creation of two separate states.
• Impact: The partition led to one of the largest mass migrations in history, with over 10 million people displaced and an estimated 1–2 million deaths due to communal violence. The religious divide continues to shape relations between India and Pakistan.

Rwandan Genocide (1994)

• Context: The Rwandan Genocide was a mass slaughter of the Tutsi minority by the Hutu majority, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people in just 100 days.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religious rhetoric was used to incite violence, with some church leaders participating in the genocide or providing support to Hutu extremists. Religious institutions, particularly the Catholic Church, were accused of failing to intervene or actively contributing to the killings.
• Impact: The genocide left deep scars in Rwandan society, with the role of religious institutions during the violence being a subject of ongoing scrutiny and debate.

Islamic State (ISIS) and Jihadism (2010s)

• Context: The Islamic State (ISIS) emerged in the context of the Syrian civil war and the instability in Iraq, proclaiming a caliphate and using extreme violence to establish control over territories.
• Weaponization of Religion: ISIS and other jihadist groups used a distorted interpretation of Islam to justify acts of terror, violence, and the imposition of a brutal theocratic regime. Their rhetoric centered around a religious duty to fight against non-believers (kafirs) and apostates.
• Impact: The rise of ISIS led to widespread human suffering, mass displacement, and acts of terror around the world. The group's actions also fueled Islamophobia and created divisions within the global Muslim community.

Religious Nationalism in Myanmar (2010s–2020s)

• Context: In Myanmar, the Rohingya Muslim minority has faced severe persecution from the Buddhist majority, particularly during a military crackdown in 2017 that was described as ethnic cleansing.
• Weaponization of Religion: Ultra-nationalist Buddhist monks and leaders used religious rhetoric to dehumanize the Rohingya, framing them as a threat to the nation’s Buddhist identity. This was used to legitimize violence and mass displacement.
• Impact: Over 700,000 Rohingya were forced to flee to neighboring Bangladesh, with thousands killed. The religious and ethnic tensions exacerbated by this conflict have contributed to ongoing humanitarian crises in the region.

Salem Witch Trials (1692)

• Context: In colonial Massachusetts, a series of hearings and prosecutions took place against individuals accused of witchcraft.
• Weaponization of Religion: Puritan religious beliefs played a central role in the trials. The fear of witchcraft was rooted in religious doctrine, and accusations were often fueled by social and political tensions within the community. Religious leaders endorsed the trials as a necessary purging of evil.
• Impact: Nineteen people were executed, and many others were imprisoned. The trials reflected the dangers of religious fanaticism and mass hysteria, leading to deep trauma and mistrust in the local community.

the conceptus' needs are only ever inferred — Banno

So it is with a new born baby, yet we give a baby at least enough standing to outweigh the mother’s choice of life or death at that point of development, much sooner than that usually.

I didn’t mean to say anything about cloning a zygote. Imagine if you did and it turned out to be a sociopath. You’d have two sociopaths to deal with instead of one. :scream:

Sloppy language, sorry. I’ll reiterate.

Over a thousand dogs have been cloned. They typically use skin cells from the pooches to make clones of them.

Dog skin cells are alive and contain doggy DNA.

You’ve said that human skin cells are not a human so I assume you’d say that dog skin cells are not a dog.

You’ve said that a fertilized human egg is a human so I assume you’d say that a fertilized dog egg is a dog.

My point is that if the genetic material in a fertilized egg is what defines it as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ then the genetic material in a skin cell is also ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ being that it can be used to reproduce a dog or human instead of the genetic material in eggs and sperm.

To me it’s no weirder to say that a skin cell is a human than it is to say a freshly fertilized egg is a human.

Are you suggesting that a person that is dependent on another human to survive is thereby no longer a human being---or never was? — Bob Ross

Uh, no. I'm pointing out that you believe a skin cell is not a human and that a skin cell can be cloned to produce a human being. Both skin and zygote are alive and have human DNA.