Is it not individuals who seek the Dharma, not groups?

But try for just a month living off the corporations, governments, etc... — javi2541997

Do you believe people are THAT weak? I believe people, once given the taste of freedom again, will not be able to get enough.

As far as those that could care less about anything other than being a serf, whatever. THIS is exactly the problem with groups. You dumb them down enough, you make them completely dependent, then you have to end up (to some degree) living their pathetic lives.

Horses, cows, chickens, crows, and sheep are drawn to groups. Why this? Whatever the reason, it's the same reason for humans. — T Clark

Perhaps, but this is not what I am getting at. We have the ability to think (albeit not very well, but a little bit), so one might believe that sitting down and considering the past couple of thousand years and what we humans are like in groups, that individuals might consider themselves better off going it more alone. After all, this is what made the U.S. the rock star it was until the forces of evil, BIG government, the FED, and all the other likely suspects, started to destroy the freedoms that allowed Americans to live freely (most anyway).

When institutions start to metastasize, the end (of freedom) is near.

Sometimes I think it looks like we are forced by the system stay together, inside the group. But somehow I guess it has the natural perception too.
It is very hard to live in loneliness or not following tendencies/thoughts/ideas and the persons who defend these.
There are even scientifics who defends that loneliness are pretty bad for our mental health.
I guess the problem is not the natural stimulus but how toxic some groups can be — javi2541997

It's not a black and white issue. You can be an individual and still be somewhat social, but the balance is waaaaay off. Just look at the power that corporations and government has over individuals in the West now. Can anybody suggest that this has been a good thing?

Obviously, I am not a group person for all kinds of reasons, but mostly because I am not one to give over my opinion to group consensus. Just look around at the mess this world is in at the moment. This is the manifestation of group mentality and group-think.

I don't agree. Even if I did, that isn't inconsistent with what I wrote. I didn't say that group action leads to love and happiness, only that it is what we do. Who we are. — T Clark

History is history (unless this part of it is to be re-written, as well).

And we all understand that people are drawn to groups, my question was based on their track record, why is this? Loneliness? Fear? Insecurity?

You answered this yourself. Better odds. Still, I think there's another angle to this. There's a difference between being socially conscious and full-blown mob mentality. The latter being nobody is really thinking or acting in accordance to their own beliefs or what they think is best, rather just doing what the guy next to them is doing out of pure instinct. — Outlander

What I am saying is that all great ideas idea emanate from the individual whereas all horrendous ones emanate from groups (because they have the power to effect all kinds of horror).

Humans are social animals. We like each other. We like to hang out together. It's who we are and what we do. No way to get away from it, for better or worse. We are not smitten with group mentality, we are born with it. — T Clark

Perhaps you should read-up on the history of our species. Slaughter after slaughter after slaughter is what defines us. Hanging out at the corner bar and on social media are quite recent activities.

Perhaps it might be expedient to discuss what isn't racism.

Believe me, all guys get the paradox, but (unfortunately) women appear to think differently on the subject.

"Within" is not causally disconnected from the rest of the world...

Think about the ramifications of that for a second, instead of trying to read things into my comments that aren't there. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes and no (like pretty much everything). Although "within" is not disconnected from the rest of the world intellectually, it is in other ways, and it is the development of these spheres that allow individualism to flourish.

Almost all the good that has happened in the world has been created by individuals through compassion, whereas almost all the bad had been foisted on the world is by groups using their leverage to amass power in order to control (everybody else).

And as a far as reading into somebody else's comments, such are the limitations of communicating in this elemental manner (or any manner, really). Without being able to see and hear the one who you are communicating with, what we accept as understanding is threadbare indeed.

"Of the transient there is no endurance, and of the eternal there is no cessation. This has verily been observed by the seers of the truth, after studying the nature of both." (Bhagavad Gita 2:16) — Dharmi

Open your mouth and you have already lost it.

Huang Po d. 850AD

Good for you. I wish you the best.

I was only semi-serious... But Christianity has played an important role in how we got where we are now.
— ChatteringMonkey

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else.
— synthesis

I don't think this is true, Christianity was historically very peculiar in many ways. — ChatteringMonkey

You mis-understand. If something bothers you, it's 99.99% not the "something" that bothers you but something inside of you. If not Christianity, then something else. The thinking world is chock-full of things that bothers us.

In the end, you can only control your own actions.
— synthesis

This seem like a part of the myth of individualism, which ironically had its roots in Christianity — ChatteringMonkey

It's not myth. Attempting to worry about what everybody else is doing is foolhardy. Change begins within, then if others like what they see, they may look more closely.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to get most people, or maybe even anyone, to accept my views. If, however, I find the one in a million of souls who are truly searching for God and freedom from this prison of materiality, then I'm here to guide those people. — Dharmi

I understand what you are doing and applaud your commitment but you might want to consider applying your principles through your speech and actions in a way which is meaningful to others. IOW, the only people who care about what you (or any of us) think are those who have come specifically for guidance (and those folks are few and far between).

Again, I admire your passion and wish you the best of luck on your path!

The intellect is something that is always changing but the Dharma is permanent. If you confuse the Dharma you can know with the Dharma as it is, you will go round and round for an infinite number of lifetimes.

Don't worry so much about what people think as they are on their own journey and they must work out their own karma. You will never be able to change anybody's mind.

And it's not a matter of accepting your views. What do your views mean in my life? I must accept my own views 100%, as must everybody else.

No, I am a follower of Sanatana Dharma, or Hinduism. I merely have the Buddhist avatar because it looks nice. Buddha himself was not a Buddh-ist, he was a Sanatani. — Dharmi

Try to make your practice inclusive as opposed to exclusive.

We are all one (after all).

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something.
— synthesis

Yes because somehow this motivates us. Nevertheless it looks like some citizens of some countries have a solid path in the meaningful life not like others (we do not count China because yes it is flawed). — javi2541997

I think if you would do an accurate study, you might find that people are people are people. Some might be happier if their society is gaining, and others unhappier if they are losing, but how different can we be?

It is up to the individual to strike out from the herd if s/he wishes to transcend the mediocrity of it all.

Animals are what humans become when they don't use their reasoning faculty. However, they, unlike Modern/Postmodern people, follow natural law. That's why animals don't do stupid things, they follow natural law. Dharma. Modern humans reject natural law. — Dharmi

I assume you are a Buddhist? And I wouldn't be so hard on the animals. :)

Why do you believe so many people seem to connect with what he says? Is everybody wrong?

I was only semi-serious... But Christianity has played an important role in how we got where we are now. — ChatteringMonkey

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else.

In the end, you can only control your own actions.

And I agree Christianity is to be blamed for everything. — ChatteringMonkey

How convenient.

Jordan Peterson is a living joke. He is a anti-Postmodernist Postmodernist. He has no credibility at all. He literally just mystifies people with words that mean nothing. — Dharmi

I think millions of people might disagree with your assessment. And you might think differently in time.

Yes. That's what makes human life different than animal life. Animals can have sex, eat, sleep and clean themselves. So can we. The difference is we have an intellect, though many do not utilize it. — Dharmi

I rather think that we use it way too much. You don't see animals doing stupid shit all the time.

Nevertheless, it its interesting that one of the fact we are agree about of making us sadness is "feeling that my life has non meaning. — javi2541997

I agree that the study seems seriously flawed. I am not sure you could find any study where 93% of a population is [fill in the blank], and China seems unlikely as a location to find mass happiness.

If Jordan Peterson leaves a legacy, I believe he will be known for advocating that the key to finding meaning in one's life is through the taking of personal and then social responsibility. It is through this mechanism that one can navigate their path using meaning as a compass.

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something.

Live the kind of free life I would likely live if I won the lottery. I would live in a cool light filled loft, drive an exotic car and just wake up and do whatever the fuck I want that day. — dazed

A very wise man once said, "Success in life is not doing what you want to do, instead, it's doing what you have to do."

If doing what you want to do is identical to what you have to do, you win! This is the prize awarded to those who are able to achieve true balance in their lives.

At fifty, the good times are just beginning (as revealed by the graph). Hang-in and stop bringing down your beautiful wife. If you have not discovered your purpose as of yet, make it taking great care of this woman you love dearly. Is there a better reason to exist than that?

Health-wise (and particularly mental health-wise), I believe the entire lock-down scenario will go down as one of the worst public policy decisions of the past century. This is why you give people in government the least amount of power possible.

There will be tens of millions of people who will develop all kinds of assorted issues, but as I am a great believer in the "equal amount of good and bad in everything" school of thought, there will also be a great deal of good to come out if it, as well. The next couple of years are not going to easy for many, many people, no doubt about that.

As much as we are social beings, you must get your individual act together before you will be of much good to anybody else. So many people are looking for others to save them and its just not going to happen. This is why taking care of yourself physically, mentally/emotionally, and spiritually is critical. Once you make so progress down this path, then you can see that you are truly in control of your life and others can only have a limited impact.

As you have stated, the time has come to discover who you are, what you are about, and what it is you are going to do. Unfortunately, this is the job to which few wish to apply.

The response to the pandemic has been historically poor on many fronts. Almost all politicians are idiots (so it seems). Those are tough conditions to live under but difficult times makes for your best teacher. It will be a benefit of you in the future.

Jack, what's real is on the inside. Don't worry about everybody else. Feeling alienated in an alienating culture is actually healthy. The key is in building up your internal strength (physically and mentally) so what's going on outside doesn't affect you nearly as much.

The folks who are really in trouble are those who keep acclimating to all the bizarre things going on. Much of this will pass, so you want to have your head together when better times arrive (and they will). This shit storm has been brewing for decades and will probably take another 10 years or so to play out, but much better times lie and the other side.

I am a baby-boomer (65) and have four daughters and a step daughter and a step son. It would take me a month and a half to tell my story but many of the people I know in their 20's and 30's (and I have gotten to know many over the years as I am a practicing physician) are ten years behind where we were growing up. It's just amazing. They are so weak. It really is a tragedy.

What do you think happened? Parents are one thing, but there must be a bunch of factors.

I believe that much of it has to do with their parents (baby-boomers) who have turned out to be the worst parents of all-time, coddling and spoiling their kids, then turning them over to corporate America and the university system which took weak, dependent children and apparently destroyed what was left of them. I think a new name for these folks might be in order, maybe something like human phone or cell (mobile) being or some such thing.

I know that there's a great deal of research on-going in the social sciences attempting to figure out what happened to these folks, but I am sure that they are truly going to live up to their nickname as the "lost generation." Many of them would just assume never move away from their parents. That's a serious problem in and of itself.

Just the fact that so many have gone along with this entire woke religion thing will set them back ten to fifteen years at the minimum. Imagine believing that an entire race of people (and the one you happen to belong to) is racist? Would you hire somebody who thought like this?

The entire Euro-system was doomed from the beginning but that's another story!
— synthesis

Agree. This can start a different debate lol. — javi2541997

Countries having their own currencies are critical because you need to be able to adjust the value of the currency (v. the USD) based on what happening in your economy.

And of course, war is now economic, so why mess with bullets and bombs when you can just steal it through the currency manipulation, taxes, fees, and transfers.

The imposition of the Euro is like a stealth European war.

This makes a country so much powerful. Having a currency that is so valuable around the world makes the difference.
But I guess (If I finally get your points) one of the most difficult goals is facing the dollar. So probably this is the reason why the Eurosystem was created. New profitable currency which can face the Dollar.
Nevertheless p, it is interesting because we are giving “value” to some coins than others. — javi2541997

One of the disadvantages to being the reserve currency is that you have to run trade deficits so as to create enough dollars for the world to use. IOW, if the US runs a trade surplus and other countries are buying more US products (and you basically must use USDs to trade), where are you going to get your USDs from? One of the reasons the US trade deficit has been kept so high (through outsourcing the manufacturing base) was to create deficits that would increase the global supply of USDs (it was a banking decision).

The global economy is a massive ruse in many ways and although it works on some levels (particularly for governments and corporations), the small company and individual gets hosed unless they are willing to adopt the practices of larger concerns and lie, cheat, and steal as their primary business model.

The entire Euro-system was doomed from the beginning but that's another story!

We can only make decisions based on our thinking. Reacting without thought is not decision making. It's an involuntary conditioned response. We can deliberately condition ourselves to react in particular ways, but that requires planning etc., i.e., thinking. For example, if you were speeding down the freeway and the car in front of you abruptly slowed down you'd probably hit the brakes without thinking or deciding to hit the brakes. With deliberate practice we can train ourselves to do this as well as possible. That's something that we can chose to do, and that decision would be based in reason.

Deciding something based on a gut feeling or intuition is also thinking in that it involves the subconscious, it's just not well considered, or perhaps it is well considered if deliberate conditioning were involved. — praxis

That's very nice but nobody knows how thinking works.

You have to go with what we know (which is zero) and speculate on the rest. Again, the idea is that there is a part of the brain that is capable of processing an infinite amount of information without our being able to access it intellectually (thank God!). If you can tap into this, it allows you to see things much closer to the way they actually exist.

I'd like to give credit to the first responders to this thread. Sorry if this sounds like a pun. hehe. But they have given good explanations as to why the above is so.

So, to summarize: two things -- engineering (modification and manipulation of our surroundings by our skilled and competent experts); and the discovery that driving has nothing to do with IQ, but coordination of senses and reflexes. — Caldwell

Nobody knows how thinking works on any level so I would disagree with their speculation. The only thing we do know is that the amount of information that needs to be processed in incalculable and that this cannot take place if we are using our normal thinking.

And I agree that people do have faith in other drivers (to some extent) but what does that have to do with what we are discussing?

But... Why some currency are better than others? I mean, if you start creating a lot of American dollar it is worthy because is a powerful currency. But this does not happen with pesos or rupiah.
So I guess it also depends, as you said, in the value of that country? (income, GDP, goods, profit, revenues, etc...) — javi2541997

You should read up on how the international monetary system works. It is fascinating and absolutely essential to understand what's going on at the moment. Two places to check out are the American Monetary Institute and the BIS (Bank of International Settlements). The BIS is the central bank to central bank and they are quite candid at times vis a vis the pathetic state of the global economy.

Let me tell you a couple of things that might peak your interest. As I am sure you are aware, the American dollar (USD) is the global reserve currency. With that designation, those who create the USD (particularly the USG) can essentially print money at will (until they can't), and we are getting closer and closer to that time.

When WWII was over, the survivors got together and created a new monetary system (Brenton Woods Agreement). It made the USD the reserve currency which meant several things. Primarily, all other currencies would be valued against the USD as they were towards gold previously. That system worked fairly well until 1964 when US coinage was counterfeited with copper filling, and then the big move was going off the gold standard altogether in 1973. What is happening today is a direct result of that decision and something that many in the US (including me) have been screaming about ever since.

Going to a FIAT system of currency (no longer backed by anything other than the good faith of the USG) allowed the FED and the government to essentially destroy the country (exchange equity for debt on an international scale). The biggest effect was in the balance of payments with international trade whereas before 1973 countries had to balance their trade with other countries with gold bullion, now they could make payments in USD. Imagine that!

This allowed the US to export its manufacturing base to China and pay the trade balance in phony (printed) US dollars. It screwed over tens of millions of Americans whereas the wealthy got super rich.

What will probably turn out to be an even bigger problem is the inflation situation although people have been predicting a hyper-inflationary episode for decades now. I was always on the deflationary side of that argument and there are still tremendous deflationary forces at work, two being an incredible excess of labor globally, the other technological advancement in industry.

Chew on that for a while...

It's not necessary to think for ourselves, that's true. We can rely on others to see things for what they really are and inform us on how to respond with the most appropriate measures. Not everyone is made to be a follower though. — praxis

You are not understanding. You don't listen to other people (that's the last thing you want to do). By achieving some degree of clarity, you can make decisions based on what's really happening instead of what you "think" is happening.

Probably the deflation in January 1, 1900 occurred because civil war in the United United in the last years of XIXth century. (It is just my guess I am not a specialist in Economics). — javi2541997

Deflation is the natural order of things. Inflation is the anomaly. Here's why...

If the amount of money being created in the system, Y, is equal to the amount of goods and services produced , X, by the economy (X=Y), then (in theory) you have zero inflation. If the productivity of the society increases (that is, you are producing more value per hour worked because of increases say in technology, then you might have 2X) then you have created a situation where your money becomes more valuable as Y now equals 2X.

This is exactly what happened during the 19th century in the U.S. and why so many people from Europe wanted to emigrate. When you have this situation, the ENTIRE society receives the benefits of the increase in productivity simply through using money.

Inflation is the opposite case whereas there is more money created than good and services, so the value of your money decreases. The type of inflation you have depends on where the excess money is applied, e.g., now in the housing market, the stock market, Bitcoin, and other commodities.

The banking system desires inflation for several reasons. First, they can inflate away debt which is critical in times such as we are living in now. The second is that they get to use the new money introduced into the system before prices are inflated by that money so they buy low and just watch their investments grow "naturally."

The other reason is the most pernicious. Since money is debt in this system, the amount of interest that must be paid to keep the system going necessitates that more and more money be created simply to make this payment.

THIS is the primary reason for the trillions in stimulus. It has little to do with people and everything to do with keeping this Ponzi scheme going. Like Henry Ford said in 1932, "If the American people tonight learned how the banking system in their county worked, there would be revolution by morning," or something fairly close to that.

You want low taxes and real money.

Prices in the U.S. were cheaper on January 1, 1900 then they were on January 1, 1800.

Imagine that!!

The point of this thread was to introduce an alternative approach to intellectualization. As one who was seriously burned-out from a long and arduous philosophical journey, I came to realize that the burden of having to "figure it out" was a grand illusion, that things were the way there were regardless of my thinking (especially taking into account that even the simplest of things is insurmountably complex for the human intellect to grasp).

So we all end up spinning our wheels in great frustration attempting to execute the impossible task of understand the what, why, how, and when of things that gives rise to the roller coaster ride we call our lives.

Fortunately, it is not necessary to function in this highly ineffectual manner. If we can simply observe and accept (without comment), then we can see things for what they really are and respond with the most appropriate measures.

Perhaps one day humanity will figure it out, but this seems highly improbable, as after all, we can't even fathom why we are here in the first place, so how can we know anything else?

You seem to be omitting the fact that we first must learn how to “do” X. The first time you get behind the wheel of a car you aren’t able to just drive without thinking about driving. You have to consciously think through each step. Anyways, you seem to be describing what’s known as flow states, where individuals seem to lose themselves in a task they find meaningful and rewarding. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s book “Flow” is specifically about the importance these states have on our overall happiness and well-being. — Pinprick

We have to learn how to do pretty much everything, BUT, once we learn the basics, then we can switch from our thinking mind into ?? (call in some sort of meditative state). If we happen to switch back to our thinking mind in the middle of such tasks, all hell breaks loose (as is the case in driving). This happens in everything we do.

Somebody can come up with all kinds of names for it but I believe it is our ability to to see things as they really are, a mode we are forced into because we simply cannot deal with the amount of information coming at us in thinking mode. Practicing meditation is the effort to enter and remain in this mode and enjoy the benefits in everything we do, including the optimization of mental and physical health.

Why should that be a problem?? To you?? You advocate that everyone should save themselves, and if they can't, that's their fucking problem. — baker

Yes, within the context of any system, it is up to the individual to save themselves, but if you were designing a system, you want to avoid giving power to groups because that means individuals are going to be screwed...BIG time.