Your request is as absurd as your accusations. — baker

So, you don't deny that you are a racist and a fascist. It's settled. Now the only question is, are you? When we empanel a jury, as finders of fact, they are called upon to bring their life experience to the consideration of the veracity of witnesses and to draw conclusions regarding demeanor. I sit in the jury box. I have observed your defense of individuals who's conduct I deem to be fascist and racist. Were you to be an attorney, advocating for them in a demand that the burden of proof be met by the state, then I'd toss you a bone. But I'm not the state. I'm on the jury. And you're not their attorney. You are, at best, your own counsel. Pleading the Fifth? LOL! I can decide on the record.

Based on what reasoning should we conclude that the presence of those things is evidence that God (if he exists) is not benevolent? — baker

I don't think there is any. The presence of those things means God IS benevolent. He looks kindly on the micro-organisms that eat human flesh. Sounds pretty benevolent to me.

No it isn't and wasn't.

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html — Isaac

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of baseline. Look it up. But let's play your game: assuming for the sake of argument the system was not set up for those pandemics, it makes my argument even stronger. We don't have universal single payor either. We should. So what? The baseline is what you have to work with and we've been working with it (or, to assume your argument), or trying to work within it for decades, if not more. To toss a NEW player on the field, a player than can easily be vaxed to keep you out of that system, is another straw that should bear it's own burdens, if people choose to not avail themselves of the option.

Yes there is. I've already done it. Remain at a healthy bmi, eat well, exercise regularly, avoid crowded places during pandemics, wear a mask, wash hands regularly... Are you going to ask all the inpatients about those actions too? — Isaac

No, I'm not going to ask them about those actions. You know why? First, because some of them are the essential workers that allow spoiled people like you and me to isolate in the first place. Second, because if they did not wear a mask or wash hands regularly and had vaxed, they wouldn't be there. DOH! The vax is the arbiter. Not all that other stuff. We are trying to keep people out of hospital beds; not shut down the economy that you and I rely on.

So no, no one has yet answered...

Why vaccination
— James Riley

...because no one has given anything which distinguishes vaccination from other courses of action one could take to avoid needing a hospital bed in a time of crisis. — Isaac

Yes, someone has answered the question. You just don't like the answer. I hope everyone else noticed how you just pivoted from other proximate causes to other courses of action. So now you are saying that had people just done what they were told in the first fucking place, like distance, mask, wash, then we wouldn't need the vax. Guess what? You are right! But you had your own counterparts out there throwing shade on distancing, masking and washing so we needed a vax. Now we need a vax and they pivot to blaming a lack of distance, mask, wash. WTF?

Here's the deal, Isaac: We live in a world where not everyone is going to live up to your standards of distancing, masking, washing, BMI, etc. And, as a non-thinking person, you might argue "Well, they SHOULD! Everyone should be like me! Everyone should listen to me, Isaac, internet poser and expert on epidemiology!" But that ain't the world, Isaac. Go get your fucking vax. You know better. You're just being a gadfly, a troll. But, to the extent anyone is listening to you, you are a bed taker, a killer.

In not a doctor. I'm a respiratory therapist.

And no, hospitals don't prioritize based on vaccination history. — frank

That's the point of the argument: They should. I'm not hearing any arguments as to why they shouldn't. After all, it's not any more burdensome than asking what they had for breakfast that morning. Or if they had their X shot in the last ten years, or if grandma had uterine cancer too, etc.

I'll ask you the same question I put to Benkei then. Why vaccination? It's not even that high on the list of choices which proximally increase your risk of needing a hospital bed. — Isaac

Let's stipulate that there is a pandemic of other, non-Covid proximate causes. A bunch of them. Okay? Now, here's the distinction: our system is and was set up to deal with ALL those other proximate causes, with X number of beds, resources, protocols, and whatnot. Now we have a new player in town, a new straw tossed on the camels back, in what is called a "pandemic." Look it up. Finally, add the fact that there is a simple and free way to stay out of the hospital and avoid stressing those resources that were not designed for this pandemic.

That is the direct, clear answer to your question "Why vaccination."

That's not the right hypothetical. Instead focus on the healthcare worker 14 hours into trying to keep the situation under control and failing.

Frustration amped by exhaustion appears. Anger from being hungry, tired, needing to pee, etc. Do I hate white people because they're so fucking lucky? Let me deal with the black woman first.

Do I hate Jews because that one I know did that stupid thing? That guy looks Jewish, let me deal with this other guy first.

Am I really frustrated that this situation wouldn't be so bad if more people were vaccinated? Well, every covid positive patient here is probably unvaccinated, so let me just feed this anger a little more.

This is all irrational bullshit talking. Stop. Go pee. Go sit down and eat a doughnut. Write stupid stuff on your phone to people you don't know.

Now go back and deal with whatever. — frank

It may not be the right hypothetical, but it is the hypothetical you were presented with. Anyway, ask yourself about who (besides a virus) created the awful circumstances you just described? Was it all the people who got the vax? Did they create that mess, that untenable situation you are in? Hell, even a doc in a combat zone will treat his own guys first. Enemy comes later.

I would think every doctor in the land should know what his patients condition is, like Isaac's fat guy, or my anti-vax guy or whatever. Ask. Did you get the vax? If not, why not? Next . . .

And most of these situations did not arise with people coming in unconscious. They come in sick, complaining, articulating. They can lie, of course. Hence the card. And if you have enough beds, then, just like a combat zone, you treat them, even if they are an enemy. Hippocrates and all that. Great. Love it. But you prioritize those who did exactly what you, as a fucking doctor, told them to do: they got vaxed. Now you are going to turn them away because you're helping some Trumpster who told gubmn't and doctors and their fellow citizens to go fuck themselves?

I'll ask you the same question I put to Benkei then. Why vaccination? It's not even that high on the list of choices which proximally increase your risk of needing a hospital bed. — Isaac

Choosing not to vax makes you an jerk. Choosing to get fat makes you fat. I like fat people more than jerks. I should choose. Make me king.

Yes, but you've then got to decide extents. — Isaac

That's easy. If the proximate cause is being an obstinate, petulant, Trump-supporting, Republican "rebel against the man" then you don't get treated. If you are fat, love fat food, and support a fat industry that sells fat food, then, while that is a proximate cause, it's not nearly as culpable. One is an inconsiderate, disrespectful, selfish asshole; the other not. And even worse than those two? That would be the poser throwing shade on the vax instead of on the fat. After all, if fat is worse, then you don't waste your time messing with the vax. You get out there and help people make healthy choices about what they eat. You attack the industry. But yeah, it's easier to use fat people as a shill to get your shade thrown on smarter people who are trying to help with a pandemic.

Is this all a game for you? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It is now.

You know, on "The Philosophy Forum". If you can't entertain a hypothetical, then get back to work.

You do NOT know of what you speak. Period. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I know I wouldn't "tried to get arrested". Nor would I throw a tantrum or use money. I'm a firm believer in technology. Oh, and I would have no problem not seeing my loved one if they were in the hospital being taken care of. I would thank my lucky stars they were in there. That's not what we are talking about here. So you can kindly fuck off yourself.

P.S. Hopefully your loved one was not in there for failure to vax, murdering other people who could have used the bed.

I don't know. — frank

Ah, but Benkei's scenario said you did know. You aren't willing to address hypotheticals as you play on your key board today?

You can bully and bluster till the cows come home but you are wrong. :100: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's fine for you to think that. We want people like you to think that. It's good to have protocols. Until it's not. That's when shit gets real.

I think Afghanistan has been on the official "do-not-go, try-to-avoid"-list for years now. — ssu

That is true. But what I'm talking about is the last few months in anticipation of what happened:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/30/how-evacuation-americans-is-going/

I would intubate the first one and put him on a vent, — frank

Which one is the first one?

:lol: You'll definitely be fine. You'll end up in the psych ward eventually. — frank

Now that's a possibility.

How about the rest of here just stipulate that you can kick Chuck Norris's ass any time you like and you leave off making posts where you remind us? — Srap Tasmaner

Chuck and a good 50% of the people on the planet (at least!) could easily kick my ass in a fair fight. How about we stipulate to that?

Most humans are assholes. How have you not noticed this yet? — frank

I have noticed it. Some are even stupid assholes. Where is Darwin when you need him?

You'll wake up tied to a bed with a tube down your throat. If you start struggling, we'll put you back to — frank

Uh, no. You'll just end up with more big people to triage. I'll be fine.

I don't know what all the various triage scenarios are that you have cooked up in your brain. What I'm getting at is a limited number of beds CREATED by assholes during a pandemic. I'm not talking about a train wreck, or a shooter in Las Vegas. I'm talking about assholes during a pandemic.

That's why we have huge security personnel. — frank

Get the biggest ones you want. Get as many as you want.

I don't know if irony is the word, but one of the arguments anti-vaxers use is that Covid affects mostly old people who are on their way out anyway. Then, on the other hand, doctors often make judgement calls about the type and level of treatment accorded to people who only have a few years left. They don't get the balls-out, heroic efforts that you see applied to children or the young and healthy. That's as if some old people don't want to live as much as younger people. And it's a simple cost-benefit analysis. Doctors aren't all clean hands on this. They make judgement calls all the time. As do insurance companies and the courts (a finger is worth this, a leg is worth that, a bread-winner is worth more, a child *could* be worth more in the future, an old person, well, put them on an ice sheet and shove them out to sea. They cost too much).

So I really don't see a problem with a doctor inquiring as to whether the patient believed in taking non-FDA-approved Rx before giving non-FDA-approved Rx to a patient. And if a vaxxed person comes in from an automobile accident and needing a vent, and if there are no beds left, I see no problem with ripping the vent out of the yap of a Trumpster, shoving his gurney out in the hall, sterilizing the vent and using it on the accident victim.

Again, this is not the kind of decision a triager makes. — frank

If it was my loved one's life on the line who needed the bed, then I'd make the decision for the triager. That settles that. Some times a selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful asshole makes it my lane.

:up:

So in all, the Global War on Terror is quite active; alive and kicking. Even if people don't know it anymore. — ssu

:100: Over the last 20 years we have spun up an operation that many people don't know about. T's are waking up in the middle of the night with their throats slit. Heads are mysteriously exploding into a pink mist. You can't go out and take shit without wondering if a three foot missile is going to turn that boulder into 10k pieces of granite shrapnel. Any time, any place. You spend so much time on counter-intel and hiding that you can't plan ops; especially ops across the ocean with the Great Satan. It's a good thing.

Biometrics tracking, humint, it's gotten so much better than the Cold War days. Can it come home and be used against us? Let's hope not. But the private sector can pay so much more than service pay. We rely on honor, honesty, courage and humility to protect us from ourselves. Call it the Deep State or whatever you want, but it's better than having a wild card running the show.

So how many American citizens were left to Afghanistan? — ssu

I'm not sure, but if you read all the St Dept. warnings, like 15, ramping up in intensity for many months, the thing that comes to mind is the guy in the bed, about to go on vent, begging for the vax. I'd go look it up but it's open source and easy to find. Any one who wanted out could have gotten out, when they were told, pleaded with, begged, months ago.

And the Biden-approved talking points have run out. I wager that noise you hear is a sucking one. — NOS4A2

Four years. Four long years. Nothing. Nothing but bluster. Putin's bitch. Trump is a stain on America that . . . well, never mind.

Biden got over 100,000 people out in one of the largest air lifts in history, in the middle of a fucking war zone, after Trump set a table full of shit, capitulated to the enemy, surrendered, and drew down our presence to 2.5k.. I think all Americans can agree it's a good thing to be gone, but in typical Trump style, he made it happen the way a coward would make it happen: do the easy thing, make it hard for your successor, and then, like a little pussy, leave. Why didn't he exit? Because he's a pussy. I mean, can you just imagine the knot your panties would be in right now if Biden had reversed Trump, gone back on our word, surged and started up the war again? Or, forget that, just added one troop. You'd be apoplectic, hair on fire, screaming like a little bitch. LOL!

How his sheep don't see him as the antithesis of everything they pretend to look up to and admire speaks volumes about them. And it's not good. It is a good thing, however, that their Jesus is a pacifist. Otherwise he'd come down here and kick the living shit out of all of them. Must be nice to know you can get away with anything simply because you are forgiven. In that case you can even act like Trump.

You do have a way with words! — tim wood

:up: Some are mine, but I did steal some from people on the Iron Snowflake. I provided attribution for those. :grin:

Trump losers don't like us drinking cups of conservative tears and not giving a fuck about their feelings. Go figure. Karma. One of my favorite quotes, paraphrased: "When Michelle says when they go low, we go high. I can't do that. Maybe half way. How's that?" :lol: Can't remember who said it.

“Sorry, I can’t hear you over the sound of THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAID TRUMP DEFEATED ISIS demanding that we deploy more troops to Afghanistan to kill ISIS.” Angry Staffer

"Nothing unites the GOP like punishing a Democratic president for inheriting a war they lost." LOLGOP

Biden did not enforce the agreement or negotiate a new one — NOS4A2

I don't know how familiar you are with international agreements, but you generally lost credibility when you come in and do what Trump did with international trade agreements. Foreigners can't rely on a new dummy every four years coming in and undoing what the last dummy did. Like private contract, you generally try to do what the last guy committed the United States of America to. There's a little thing called "your word." But Trump wouldn't know about that. He just know Joe would abide America's word.

My guy didn't fail. As I taught you, with Trump's OWN WORDS, it's his fault. And by your defense of him, it is your fault. Besides, if Trump was the bee's knees, why didn't he do it all? He had four years. Fact is, he's a dishonorable coward and a liar and he set all this shit up for Biden to fail. Trump is a traitor to the U.S. He shit on all the protocols for A exit papers, buried shit and made this all what it was, of his own work (well, him and his henchmen like Popous). The who thing is a Trump failure. All of it. And no R on the face of the Earth could have done a better job than Joe just did.

It's true he made a deal with the Taliban, — NOS4A2

I the famous words of NOS4A2 "A [true] would have sufficed."

it's impossible to blame Trump for what Biden had done. — NOS4A2

Watch me. I learned from the Republicans on how you can always blame the other side. All this shit is George Bush's and Trump's fault, all of it. Obama and Biden have no responsibility for anything bad that happened over there. None. They may assume it, but it's not there's. R's were beholden to the MIC. I talked to a guy who was training up the As and he basically said the private contractors were just there for the $ and there was no surprise in the lack of resistance.

You can shuck and jive all you want, but it was Trump's fault, the Republican's fault. All of it.

There is not a single R that could have done better than Biden and they all would have done worse. They are Monday Morning Quarterbacks, nit-picking shit they put into play and would fuck up totally if left in charge of it. R's could not find a single person within their ranks with the honor, honesty or courage of Joe.

Guilty until proven innocent? — baker

Hell, Baker, we can settle this right now. All you have to say is:

I am not a racist and I hate racism.
I am not a fascist and I hate fascism.

Pretty simple really. I think that is pretty close to what I asked before but you did the two-step shuffle and squirmed your way around it. Hence the nomenclature.

Don't think that your misrepresenation and your contempt go unnoticed. — baker

I would place the burden of proof upon you but even I am not that mean. That would call upon you to go back and find the impetus for my contempt of you. You could not be expected to find where you refused to deny that you were a fascist or a racist, for that would be you proving yourself wrong and you can't be expected to do that. After all, you are Baker.

People like you make the world not worth saving. — baker

So long as Jesus loves me, we're all good, right?

What use is a philosophy when living by it makes you a loser?! — baker

Ask Jesus. You're on a first name basis with him, aren't you?

In the end, irony will be the winner!!!!!! — baker

No, just a troll that will out-last reason/logic. You know, like you.

At pretty much any other forum you'd be banned for misrepresenting and attacking another poster like you do.
But, hey, Jesus loves you!!!!! — baker

I can't even remember why I called you a fascist racist but I think it had something to do with your refusal to refute fascism and racism. But as to the passive aggressive BS, well, that's just the truth. Can't ban a man for telling the truth.

A "no" would have sufficed. — NOS4A2

It would suffice for a simple person, incapable of appreciating nuance. Just because a real man, with broad shoulders, steps up and assumes responsibility for the actions of the weak and stupid does not mean he is responsible for those actions:

“I started the process. All the troops are coming home. They (Biden) couldn’t stop the process. 21 years is enough. They (Biden) couldn’t stop the process, they (Biden) wanted to but couldn’t stop the process.”
- Trump (Republican), June 26 2021

Trump (Republican) parlayed with the enemy, surrendered to them, without even giving our Afghan allies a seat at the table, had 5,000 enemy released, including Isis K members and the Taliban turd who is now their leader. He drew down to 2.5k troops and then dumped this steaming pile of shit on Biden's lap. Now all his pussy sheep line up to blame Biden. That is par for the course with Republicans: They ruin the U.S., turn it over to the Democrats to fix (blaming them for all the problems) and then come on back in and trash it again. Rinse, repeat. So, Biden excepting responsibility is just what men like him do.

Republicans, on the other hand:

"I don't accept responsibility at all." Trump (Republican) regarding Covid.

flimsy paper card that is easily lost or destroyed. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Same here. Although Colorado has one of those Driver's Licenses that you can get through TSA with at the airport and they have now created a process where you can get your vax linked to it. You know, so they can load us on the trains and take us to the ovens when we no longer serve Zog's purpose.

I'm seeing some accusations of hypocrisy (double standards) here, while at the same time committing a two-wrongs-make-a-right fallacy. :meh: — jorndoe

:100:

Yes, yes you are. Not only that, but there are unfounded assumptions about those with comorbidities (i.e. that they are the ones pushing vax); or that those who push vax are not also pushing for other health-saving choices; and a failure to distinguish between knowingly assuming risk and thinking there is no risk; and risking others beyond the self. Those who are allegedly killed by, or suffer from the vax also had comorbidities. Should we take them off the table and say the vax does not harm at all?

If one is going to fail logic by an appeal to authority (as I do), then at least have the authority appealed to be an actual authority; not like some generally smart people who don't know shit.

Everyone on both sides has already bet. The difference is, which lives were anteed up? At least I didn't throw someone else on the table.

I could go on, but the the failures of reason/logic go on and on, and I tire. I just hope those who answered the call to service haven't done so in vain.

I knew a man, a fellow Recon Marine, who prided himself on his brutal honesty. He said he never lied. I would have asked him if pretending to be vegetation (something he was not) was lying. I couldn't ask him because he was the administrator of a discussion forum from which I had been banned. Regardless, I think the way we painted ourselves up was intentionally deceitful. We were experts at it. Granted, we were trying to deceive "the enemy" but still, it was a lie. So, I think many would agree it is ethical to lie to your enemy.

Also, here is one of my favorite quotes:

" In some western states this technique of elaboration to the point where it merges into untruth, is called “stuffing dudes.” Every native born westerner numbers among his inalienable rights the license to use this technique upon occasion, and considers it a gross breach of hospitality if a visitor leaves without having had a few whoppers thrown in with the usual descriptions of the country and it’s customs. Several subjects are rarely discussed under such circumstances without stretching the truth, and in telling the Colter legend, by tradition, it has become almost compulsory to exaggerate. And since no one can study Colter’s accomplishments without being affected to some degree by the contagious desire to improve on truth, I have thought it wise to work off my touch of the disease in Chapter One. Stern searchers after fact are hereby directed to begin reading at Chapter Two.
. . .
The men of the frontier believed that if a yarn told with punctilious respect for the truth fell on unbelieving ears, it was proper to elaborate on the story and make it a good one.
. . .
Therefore, it is obvious that the traditional ridicule of the stories about Colter’s Hell did not originate with his contemporaries, but rather with those who preferred to rely upon the writings of cloistered, learned men and scoffed at the reports of those who told of what they had actually seen."

John Colter, His Years in the Rockies, By Burton Harris, Bison Books, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London, 1993.

In summary, the ethics of lying can be, well, elastic. LOL!