• On Fosse's Nobel lecture: 'A Silent Language'
    Because it is part of the human experience. Death by sickness, death by old age, being murdered and committing suicide are constant outcomes in our human lives.Christoffer

    Then, it is understandable how some authors incorporate suicide or suicidal characters. It is natural and even more realistic than some other fictional environments, plots, dialogues, etc. Stating this doesn't endorse actual suicide but provides another perspective in an artistic way. At least, a portrayal of suicide in a story can be more relatable than a plot where characters go to Mars and come back.
  • On Fosse's Nobel lecture: 'A Silent Language'
    After rereading your answer, I am not sure if you're actually scolding me or just disagreeing with Fosse.
  • On Fosse's Nobel lecture: 'A Silent Language'
    What Fosse is writing there is exactly what happens with fiction in relation to reality. No serious author is promoting suicide, not even Camus did so as he positioned it as the negative relation to his solution for the absurd. People who experience suicidal thoughts need to find good exploration of the concept they experience, it gives perspective and in almost all cases exposure to such ideas in fiction lead to calming such thoughts rather than triggering them. I've seen stuff in fiction that makes fun of suicide to the point of almost being tasteless and it still seem to help suicidal individuals overcome their negative thoughts.Christoffer

    It is true that not taking suicide seriously is tasteless. But I think that in every expression of culture, suicide pops up, even unintentionally. This is why Fosse said that his works seemed to legitimize suicide when this was not his principal idea for the plot and characters. Although he was brave enough to have suicidal characters in his plays and poems, he feels, somehow, overwhelmed due to this state of mind. Facing death, and more specifically suicide, is not everyone's cup of tea. But, I guess it is important to write about this, not hide its existence, and try to interpret this act in different manners. I think the conclusion of Fosse is that, despite always using escapism, he never thought about suicide that deeply. A different perspective from Mishima who thought about suicide as an act of escaping from the rotting of Japan.

    We need more writing like his than we need overprotective uneducated anti-intellectuals stumbling around thinking they are helping other people.Christoffer

    I agree.
  • On Fosse's Nobel lecture: 'A Silent Language'
    So he has found a unique way of carving out a form of language that is familiar to others, yet unfamiliar as written-and-literary.

    It seems to me that in prose and drama, Fosse is arguing that he tries to escape himself into a way of writing which nevertheless, in a Bakhtinian way, has meaning only in multi-voiced dialogue between the writer and the reader. (He specifically contrasts poetry as a form whose meaning tends to refer only to itself)
    mcdoodle

    Firstly, thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts on reading Fosse. I am now very interested in searching and buying a book of his. I am open to the genres he worked with: drama, playwright, or poetry.

    On the other hand, he actually quoted Mikhail Bakhtin in his lecture. Basically, Fosse argues with the quoted author that expression has two voices: the voice of the person who speaks and the voice of the person who is spoken about. And he states: These often slide into each other in such a way that it is impossible to tell whose voice it is. I don't know to what extent he is referring to the writer-reader union, but how these play solo in his writings.

    I wonder about this because he concluded that writing is a lonely practice, and that's how he felt during his life and how he faced fear or problems.
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    When it was announced that I had been awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, I received a lot of emails and congratulations, and of course I was very pleased, most of the greetings were simple and cheerful, but some people wrote that they were screaming with joy, others that they were moved to tears. That truly touched me. There are many suicides in my writing. More than I like to think about. I have been afraid that I, in this way, may have contributed to legitimising suicide. So what touched me more than anything were those who candidly wrote that my writing had quite simply saved their lives. In a sense I have always known that writing can save lives, perhaps it has even saved my own life. And if my writing also can help to save the lives of others, nothing would make me happier.Jon Fosse
  • Where is everyone from?
    Did you assume 'Durr-ham' instead of 'Duh-rum' lolDaniel Duffy

    Yes, exactly. :rofl:

    I recall that during school, we were required to read newspapers from the UK. One of the news was about a castle in Durham. All the students pronounced it as 'Durr-ham,' but when the teacher corrected us, saying 'Duh-rum,' I was surprised because I had been mispronouncing the word until that day.
  • Where is everyone from?
    County Durham.Daniel Duffy

    I remember getting shocked when I heard the correct pronunciation of that English county for the first time!
  • War in Guyana? The old story again...
    The Spanish had to endure years of horror under a fascist pig like Franco, because the German Nazis prevented the Spanish people from winning their struggle, even with the help of the international brigades.universeness

    I can't believe I would agree with you. Perfectly explained and written. I agree with the quote and the rest of your post.
  • War in Guyana? The old story again...
    It is funny to remember when Chavez accused Aznar of fascism for backing up the war in Iraq. I wonder what he would think about his beloved Marxist Republic Venezuela acting as a thief against Guyana.
  • War in Guyana? The old story again...
    Adding Guyana's oil, plus making Guyana's citizens bitter and resentful, won't help Maduro.BC

    Exactly, but it is outrageous how Maduro and his corrupt friends and family of PSVD are 'against' the colonialism and imperialism of the USA and Europe. Yet they are acting as good imperialists. I don't know if they are hypocrites or just stupid. But don't worry, folks, there is a more stupid politician than Maduro: Zapatero. This socialist went to Venezuela more than 30 times trying to act as a moderator in their political elections, and this foolish person recognized Maduro as a legitimately elected president. It is amazing how the so-called Marxists cover for each other.

    These socialist asses say they root for the people, but at the same time, they establish their own elite group. :vomit:

    gh6dtojgdcgpyvz4.jpg

    2h6xrv42ivvuruve.jpg
  • War in Guyana? The old story again...
    I personally believe that Venezuela is one of the most failed nations among the pseudo-republics established after gaining independence from us. They have always been ruled by dictators, sometimes fascists, other times communists. Although the middle class and social services in Venezuela are virtually nonexistent, I think they essentially subsist because they are fortunate to have oil. On the other hand, without oil, they would be a very poor country like Haiti or Nicaragua. Everything there is a mess, and I don't understand why Spanish enterprises like Repsol and Movistar go there. My dad worked in Caracas for more than a while and decided not to return because it was impossible to work seriously there. Well, Venezuela has always accused us of bloody genocide. I can't expect more from them, but I am aware that they are always a threat to their neighbors: Colombia, Guyana, etc.

    A useless dictator like Maduro can only make us laugh because of the contradictions. He is against imperialism, but they want to occupy Guyana. They are against capitalism, but the elite of PSV studies in Switzerland or France. It is a joke, and I feel bad for the Venezuelan people because it seems difficult to get rid of this rotten system. We debated this for many days with some Latino friends, and we think that they do not have a future because they never had a good past. While Chile and Uruguay have realized that the only way to keep growing and improving is to establish capitalism and stop accusing Europe of everything, there are others like Venezuela that are happy in the victimhood of always. Again, they are so lucky to have oil... Their context would be so different otherwise. If I were the representative of Guyana, I would have said to Maduro: Por qué no te callas, as our king shouted to bloody Chavez, the communist, back in the day.

    Maduro, the puppet of Venezuelan oil companies, is acting as a clown again...

  • Missing features, bugs, questions about how to do stuff
    :up:

    All I can say is, wish you a good night, then!
  • Missing features, bugs, questions about how to do stuff
    for example, f and g sounds still occur where modern Spanish has an h (not pronounced), as in Ladino fijo, fablar versus Spanish hijo, hablar, and Ladino agora versus Spanish ahora

    The English subtitles are available in this video. Please watch it. I think you would like it.

  • Missing features, bugs, questions about how to do stuff
    I do not know if this is the correct place to share my struggle with cleaning up the memory of my computer. There appears to be a file called 'Garry's Mod,' which was a game from Steam. It takes up 12.5 GB, and it is a good idea to uninstall this game, archive, or whatever it is.

    However, when I click on the uninstall button, the window says: 'This file cannot be found.' How can this happen? A file with 12.5 GB seems not to exist, but at the same time, it occupies space in the memory of my computer.

    UPDATE: Don't worry, folks. ChatGPT already helped me find the file on my computer, and now it has been deleted forever.
  • Currently Reading
    Paradise, Abdulrazak Gurnah.
  • Welcome to The Philosophy Forum - an introduction thread
    Legal professional full timeAmadeusD

    Another legal professional mate around here! Nice to meet you, Amadeus. New Zealand seems to be an interesting place to live.
  • What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty?
    Is 'honest' a noun or a verb?YiRu Li

    Neither. It's an adjective:Vera Mont

    As Vera said, it is an adjective. I don't know if you are looking for a philosophical definition, but in terms of philology and vocabulary we can define 'honest' as: telling the truth or able to be trusted.
  • Welcome to The Philosophy Forum - an introduction thread
    I hope to live up to it and contribute good things to the forum.JuanZu

    I'm sure you will. Welcome to TPF, mate.
  • Where is everyone from?
    Have you met the devil yet?Sir2u

    Regularly.RobTAS

    What, like lunch at the club every Tuesday?Vera Mont

    You folks made me laugh! :lol:

    By the way, Tasmania seems to be an interesting place to visit. Both New Zealand and Australia, but sadly, they are very far away from my home, and I don't feel motivated enough to stay in an airplane for hours.
  • Philosophical Quotes About Art
    Works of art are things of imperfect beauty. If ever a work of art is made perfect, it becomes a crime. — Yukio Mishima
  • What are you listening to right now?
    Although Lana Del Rey is famous, I have never listened to any of her songs. Or maybe I actually did on the radio, but I have never noticed. :chin:
  • Where is everyone from?
    I am Spanish, born and living in Madrid.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    Thank you so much for your instructive response.

    Look! Continuing with the reading of Pears, another type of tautology emerges, referred to as 'deep.' David Pears states,'What is reflected in the mirror of language is reflected in the mirror of language,' or more simply, 'there is what there is.' These are deep tautologies because there is something underlying them, attempting to emerge and find a different expression.

    It is fascinating; language may be defined or investigated empirically, and according to Pears, the former is a necessary truth, and the latter is a contingent truth.

    Before ending this chapter, I would like to quote a beautiful phrase of Wittgenstein:
    To be happy is to see the world of facts as a whole with expanding limits, whereas an unhappy man feel that the same limits, enclosing the same facts, were pressing on him.

    Enough of tautologies! :grin:
  • Coronavirus
    'quickfix' experimental vaccinesTzeentch

    I partially agree with you, but without those 'quickfix' experimental vaccines, everything would have ended up in a disaster. At least, considering those weak and sick citizens who were more vulnerable when they were infected by Covid...
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    but I can talk a little about this point and see if it helps.013zen

    It was very helpful and pleasant to read. You explain yourself correctly.

    I now understand why some states that Wittgenstein was a sympathiser of positivism. You quoted some other authors who appeared in David Pears' book as well. Before joining this thread, I was completely lost. I think that one of the main 'issues' about Wittgenstein and his disciples is how they express themselves. They use a complex vocabulary which seems to only be sent to their 'Vienna' group. They make premises and arguments which are interesting, but nonetheless are difficult to follow if someone - like me - is not used to logical language.

    On the other hand, I don't consider Wittgenstein 'senseless' (I read this adjective about him a lot) but complex to follow.

    This is where I miss Austin a bit... and his 'ordinary language'

    Thanks to you and your example, I can understand what is about his 'pictures and logic'
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    OK. I understand, yet I want to thank you for helping me with your explanation of Wittgenstein. O13zen and you were the only ones who actually answered my questions, and I am pleased.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    @013zen

    Finishing today's chapter, David Pears concludes with something pretty interesting. He states: It may seem surprising that logic should reveal the essential structure of reality if the prepositions of logic are tautologies, and lack factual sense. How can something which is empty have content? But Wittgenstein does not suggest that tautologies say anything about reality. He suggests that when certain factual propositions are combined, a tautology is produced.

    It reminds me of when you explained to me that tautolgies have their place, and they are not rejected at all. At least Wittgenstein shows respect for this analytical position, but let's see what he thought when he changed his idea after the Tractatus.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    @013zen @Fooloso4

    Hello again, folks. Keeping on the book by David Pears. Chapter three is called 'pictures and logic', and I would like to share some thinking and points with you. Pears states: 'One more step is needed to complete Wittgenstein's task. If the limit of language is to include all factual proposition, the thesis of extensionality must be applied to elementary propositions. For if he applied it to non-elementary propositions, he would leave out some of the possible thruth-functions, because the base to which it was applied would be incompletely analysed. However, it is not this neutrality which proves that he was not a positivist of destruction type.

    Thoughts?

    Pears also states: Language would be then any language, the metaphysical subject would be the spirit, and Idealism would lie on the route from Solipsism to Realism. Z came from Russell, and X came from Frege. What was the origin of Y, the so-called picture theory of prepositions? Wittgenstein's explanation of logical neccesity, which depends on Y, still to be given.

    What does Y is about? To present truths in logical space? Or does David Pears refers to X and Y logical structure?
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    OK! Fair enough, I understand what David Pears is about on the very first pages of his book. I really appreciate your commitment to explaining both tautologies and David Pears' commentary. I probably will have some questions while continuing the reading. So, if you don't mind, I would like to share them with you.

    Until then. Nice to meet you and welcome to TPF! :up:
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    Interesting. If tautologies tell us what's the case in every possible world, why David Pears argue against them?

    Or more specifically, why did Pears argue that 'Tractatus' had empty tautologies, negatively? Following the chapter of his book, around pages 58 to 64, he even states that Wittgenstein never realised that his philosophical analysis on factual language holds some empty tautologies...

    A statement is a tautology if it's always true.013zen

    I agree, but Pears says:
    so the analyses will take the form of a statement which has no factual content, and is in that sense empty. For example, the analysis of the phrase 'material object' will take the form, 'if anything is a material object, then the following requirements will necessarily be met...' And this will be an empty tautology.

    Maybe it is me, but I think that David Pears sees empty tautologies as a weak statement in an argument.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    A tautology, however, has no content because it doesn't tell you anything about the world.

    Consider:

    "It's either raining or it's not raining"

    Etc

    This is empty of content, as it tells you nothing about the world.
    013zen

    Clear and good example. I am starting to understand the role of tautologies better. I can conclude that tautology can't help me to achieve the truth in a philosophical analysis and this is why it is rejected by logicians and critical thinkers, generally. By the way, thanks for commenting and helping me out with the understanding of tautologies.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    I see. Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate your help. I am only on page 60... Maybe I will find more answers and points about Pears, yet it is interesting to highlight that he states that these questions solve nearly nothing when they are answered.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    From the Tractatus...Fooloso4

    Thanks @Fooloso4. It is now clear to me what tautology is about.

    In one of these cases the proposition is true for all the truth-possibilities of the elementary
    propositions. We say that the truth-conditions are tautological.
    Fooloso4

    OK. But why does David Pears states that those tautologies are empty? Because it seems to me that the problem with Pears is the emptiness of a tautology and not the nature of this condition itself. This is why I was wondering what an empty tautology actually means.

    For me, when something is empty it means that have zero substantial significance.
  • A Wittgenstein Commentary
    Hello folks, I have a question. What is an empty tautology? I am currently reading David Pears' book on Wittgenstein, and the author says: Given that a word has a certain meaning, philosophical analysis can tell us exactly what will necessarily be the case if a statement containing that word happens to be true. Here the necessity will be tautological, or at least definitional, so the analyses will take the form of a statement which has no factual content, and is in that sense empty. For example, the analysis of the phrase 'material object' will take the form, 'if anything is a material object, then the following requirements will necessarily be met...' And this will be an empty tautology.

    I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me what David Pears means in that paragraph.

    In addition, Pears says: The difficult thing is to understand the status of Wittgenstein's conclusion, and the argument which was supposed to establish it. The problem raised by the argument is that he treats every step in it, including its conclusions, as absolutely necessary, without treating them as empty tautologies.

    Why does David see empty tautologies as a problem in an argument?
  • Currently Reading
    The Gambler, Fyodor Dostoevsky.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Yes, the situation is similar here. The government is composed of eight different political parties, and some of them criticised Pedro for not being more critical towards Israel. We had tough weeks because he was elected a few days ago, and there were a lot of debates in Congress.

    What I don't understand is why this international conflict took part in the investiture. I think my country is not that relevant, and I believe that Netanyahu doesn't care about what Spain would say at all. But you know, we have to say 'something', and Pedro decided to be brave and criticised Israel.

    I think this is even a strategic move because he promised that he would recognise Palestine as a sovereign nation in the future...

    I am afraid of the long term consequences. It is not cool to be targeted by Israel and his 'partners'...
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Nobody asked us our opinion... but yeah, why not? Pedro is always there, even if nobody expects him.

    Spain's Pedro Sánchez tells Netanyahu number of deaths in Gaza 'truly unbearable'