At least, the pre-Socratic doctrine was related to nature and the search for a connection towards it: fire, water, air, earth, wind, etc...
But since Hebrew Bible or so called old testament, it looks like all depends on a supranatural figure who decides as a judge in a court what is "good" and what is "worng".
In my humble opinion, I guess it is a backwards way of witnessing our lives but I respect there are a lot of people who believe in religion

To the western way of seeing things they are supernatural, but in Shinto they are part of the natural world. — Fooloso4

Exactly and this is one of the aspects I really like about the Japanese culture. The way they respect the natural world. Japanese tend to have an awareness of the place the live in and try to conserve it the best they can.
Shinto tries to explain that all the things around us have a meaning.
There are a lot of examples such as florist or the keeper of a port. They work with a different spirit and subtle.

I imagine I would spend at least some time and effort trying to find out if I was truly alone, but from where I sit now I don't think the search would be desperate. — Fooloso4

Interesting point of view. Are you referring to the fact of having empirical proofs of being alone?
Because an individual can feel be alone even when he is surrounded with people around.

what you say makes me wish I could live with the Japanese who maintain those concepts. I might have a better sense of belonging with them. There is so much I can not talk about in the west because the western mind is so closed. — Athena

:up: :100:

I am so sure that is wrong. It goes with believing our purpose is to keep nature healthy. That is I would work on my relationship with everything around me, and I think I would gather mannequins for dinners and meetings. What a wonderful opportunity to create an imaginary ideal reality.

Your image of reality is full of aesthetics and honour. Let me be honest with you, I tend to make similar actions as yours. I never thought on mannequins (very good idea though) but other elements around me. Developing contact with everything which is around us is important to ensure a meaningful life.
For example: I have scheduled in my Google calendar all the "big moons" that appears in 2022. Whenever this day comes, I look so precisely the moon above my house. This situation gives some vibes of writing some poems or stories, but when I finish them I feel they are not well enough.
Nevertheless, I still think it is important to put an anime to all the elements.

I am inspired by Japanese tradition of shinto (神道): Shinto is polytheistic and revolves around the kami, supernatural entities believed to inhabit all things. The link between the kami and the natural world has led to Shinto being considered animistic....
In Shinto, kannagara ("way of the kami") describes the law of the natural order, with wa ("benign harmony") being inherent in all things

How does one do Gnosis and can you provide an example of it in action? — Tom Storm

Good question. I was wondering exactly the same.

which appears to be a common thread — Bret Bernhoft

I guess the big issue here is to specify where this "common thread" comes from and why it is the origin of the doctrines

Can wars be avoided?

No, and sometimes they are even necessary. War and violence are two important elements of human nature. The world as we know it today is made due to wars that established the map and geopolitics.

Can revolutions be avoided?

It depends on people and their needs. If you cannot put some order in your house or local spaces don't ask for a revolution. I think those can be avoided if at least the citizens can live with basic necessities and lack uncertainty. But I understand that humans are complex and tend to love to express their war spirit as I typed previously.

Is freedom something we can engineer?

I would sound pretty totalitarian but trust me, freedom is one of the fatal issues of our government. The citizens or Societies are not ready to live with freedom yet. Most of the politicians or state parasites use the formula to just live thanks to our taxes. They say it is ok and important to vote for them. But no, they are lying. This democratic system about representatives is a lie. They built up as a mask to keep living a good life. I clearly see that the most democratic country is less pure. Why? Because democracy makes the wrong action to allow literally everything. If you want to keep the peace it would be necessary to put some restrictions. Do not worry. We will not see this kind of fatalism where the democracies are gone because people are so obsessed with it and we any longer have original authors or philosophers to make something different.

Make a favour to yourself and do not vote in the next elections. You would feel better and would think: This is how the real change begins

What about our prosperity or our independence?

We no longer have any of these hippy concepts. We are not independent of anything or anybody. What prosperity or independence are you asking if we do not know our values and culture?
I personally think death is the real of independence from our world.

Destra e sinistra (Right and Left) by Norberto Bobbio.

The Sound of Waves, Yukio Mishima (三島 由紀夫)

Novelist as a Vocation, Haruki Murakami (村上 春樹)

For instance, certain far left wingers think that right wing governments actually make left wing values winning out in the long run, as they increase disatisfaction in the long run with the status quo (which for the far left is by necessity right wing), where as voting left forstalls the change in the status quo away from the right to the left. — RolandTyme

This is how modern politics works. We don't see candidates with good rhetoric or ambitious plans to the citizens. They just plan some strategies to get benefits from our disappointment and angry. When years pass by it is understandable that the government still losing popularity. But instead of making a national plan, the opposition take some advantage of this issue to "steal" old voters from the government.
Then, I can't see if there still "ideologies" like in the past. I guess we just have some public representatives doing weird stuff without challenges

The dark side of moralism is fascism. — Jackson

Hmmm... :chin:

Witness in Christianity is exactly like witness of beauty given by artists: their witness doesn’t prove anything, because art is a subjective experience. — Angelo Cannata

I think we are, somehow, saying similar things. I wanted to mean that a witness or "believer" doesn't need to prove anything because they start with the basic point that God already exists. This is why I have said they seem to believe so blindly.
It is true that there were some theists or philosophers around the history that wanted to prove the existence of God (Aquinas).
They just believe it. Simple.

In this process, faith is anyway necessary, because, as I said, this kind of witness has nothing to do with the scientific kind of evidence. — Angelo Cannata

We have here two different aspects. This is why faith and witness are not connected each other. Faith comes from a subjective nature. You have faith in X and their existence and dogma, etc... because you need a subterfuge to believe in something or finding a worthy path in this life.
But... witness and evidence are there and doesn't matter if you "believe" or "not believe".
For example: the basic evidence that Pluto does exist. There is big evidences about this dwarf planet. You cannot say here "you don't have faith about Pluto's existence" because it literally exists thanks to evidence.
But it is different towards God... you believe in this subterfuge thanks to faith. You believe when there are not proofs of the existence itself.

(What if Hitler could have been snuggled to death as a baby?) — Merkwurdichliebe

Nazism would be able to exist anyway. Hitler was not the only chain of Nazi Germany. The führer could be elected on Goebbles or Himmler, for example. There are some facts inside history that looks like unavoidable.
WWIII and Nazism had to exist to take a good lesson from it. I mean, soon or later, this kind of world issues happen.

What if Putin could have been snuggled to death as a baby? ... well I guess another Russian oligarch with another name would have attacked Ukraine too.

In traditional Japanese culture, there is also the concept of rebirth tied in with suicide; there, suicide isn't seen as the total end of one's existence, the way it is usually seen in secular Western culture. — baker

Exactly, I think Japanese culture (as an overall) doesn't see death as an ending and I think that is so respectful and aesthetic. I sometimes miss the freedom of speaking about death because soon or later I will experience it. I don't want to see it as a taboo topic or so dramatic. I want to understand it as a natural process.

Which "witness" and which "testimony" secures the reproduction of faith such that at the end of the night, those in favor of witnessing will also be compelled to "witness" to others?

Witness and testimony cannot be connected to faith. All these three concepts are contradictory to each other. Faith comes from the point that you believe in something so blindly. You (supposedly) do not need any kind of proof because "God" and Jesus Christ already exist. I mean, you as a believer, start with the fundamental principle that they do exist and this is why you believe in Christianity and their dogma.
Asking for a "witness" or a "testimony" could be risky. You see these actions as a root of securing the potential of Christianity. But, I would not be that sure. Trying to spread the image of Christ through their testimony could be an act of impose or "imperialistic" as Bryan Stone tried to explain. A practice that most of the Western empires promoted back in the day when they "discovered" the new lands in America or Oceania. Building a church and then teaching the Christian dogma.
This issue could end up in an interesting vicious question: If the testimonial or witness of Christ is not solid enough... Should I be able to doubt his existence?

All of these debates about faith are more simplistic than you theists think. You just believe or not believe. Simple. This is what faith is all about. I believe this because I do so, without any witnesses.

Who knows if AI will somehow be created to "feel" and script it? — Josh Alfred

It is possible, indeed. But I think their feelings would be limited by his developer's. The machine would only be able to script a few feelings according to a specific human.
For example: I really enjoy rainy days. Probably the developer hates rainy days. Then, a machine would have a different feeling from mine not reaching a "standard" feeling because that's impossible.

Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture? — baker

It is just a conjecture because, sadly, I am not able to know what is inside of a suicidal mind. Some defend that those commanders committed suicide trying to avoid being captured. Others defend the thesis that the killed themselves as an act of honour.
The second thesis, I completely believe it related to Japanese commanders. They did Seppuku as an act of honour towards the emperors for not winning the WWII.

So you don't think they can simulate emotions? There could be programs that write text, in such a way as to make the reader feel. — Josh Alfred

Write a text, yes but just copying some empty words. Whenever you try to write a book or poem you spread all your emotions in them. I could tell a machine my thoughts and order to copy it in a "Word" page. But they would still be my thoughts and emotions.
I can't see neither imagine a machine having emotions itself because this issue is inherent to us, humans.
We love to write stories or poems about autumn or sunset. A machine couldn't understand this feeling.

I would point out all of those jobs which need the "essence" of human nature fulfilled by emotions. For example: A writer or editor. Imagine writing a history about the holidays of this summer which you have spent with family and friends. A robot would not be able to do that because it is full of emotions and memories. I don't even imagine an engineer or programmer putting this information in an IA.
Complex feelings such as sadness and nostalgia are only upon us and how we use and make art with those feelings.

Let's not waste our time — Agent Smith

What?

Perhaps we should do the right thing and offer people the choice - natalism/antinatalism - and let the chips fall where they may. — Agent Smith

:up: :100:

We are free to choose whether natalism or antinatalism since the moment children are no longer that important to maintain familiar economy!

obviously the religious traditions never intended this to be the case when using the word. Mostly they mean with omnimpotent more potent than what a single human being could do on his own. — Tomseltje

It is all about hope. This is why religious traditions have always intended to create a “super” (or even “titanic”) figure. To pursue their credibility through fear rather than knowledge

"So he/she/it can do something that cannot be done" or a similar contradictio in terminis. — Tomseltje

:100: :clap:

It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and frar of reprisals. — Tom Storm

So interesting indeed. They were more afraid of the reprisals than dying and end his life destroying everything they built during Nazi Germany.

Presumably some suicide attempts are intended to fail to begin with — baker

Then, those suicide attempts are fake. We cannot play about dying or not dying because whenever we pass through it there is no coming back. This is why, supposedly, a suicidal wants to attempt. Not come back to "life" because it "s*cks"
So, if I try a suicide attempt with the intention to fail, I am contrary to the nature of suicide itself.

It is imaginable that a serious suicide attempt (one where the reasonably predictable outcome of the method is death) brings about a special change in the person's cognition (on a biochemical level). — baker

It would make a big impact whenever you feel you are closer to death than ever. It takes a while until a suicidal makes his final "choice" because he tends to plan which path is better to end his life.
If after giving a try it results in surviving that's would affect psychologically. To be honest, I would feel pretty bad with myself and think: "I am so pathetic that I can't even end my own life"
[...] I don't know. I don't think I would feel better if I survive a suicidal attempt.

Keep in mind that suicide (supposedly) is the end to all pain and suffering. It has to work. A suicidal doesn't expect to fail the attempt

Not just he, but many other Nazis as well. — baker

Exactly, because those Nazi officials understood suicide as a honorable ending. Quite similar to Japanese commanders after Nagasaki and Hiroshima attacks.

Laws prescribe what should occur in the future. — Art48

No. The law is approved afterwards. I mean, when the issue which is object of the law occurred already. This is why laws change through the years, because you need to adapt them in what is happening right now.
You cannot promote laws with the uncertainty of what the future holds. That would make the law so useless

if suffering is self-caused (karma/east and you sow what you reap/west) then death (Algos' alterego Thanatos) must be too, oui? — Agent Smith

Exactly. Well written, Sir. I see suffering and death correlated in self-caused actions. I don't see it in exterior facts but it is true that we also have to take some consideration about them.

We're all committing suicide then, right? — Agent Smith

One day, soon or after, we will be dead. Each is individual is free to choose the path to do so.

They are both dead now. — Paine

Here is your answer then. There is not a difference between the two scenarios of your friends. One interpreted death in his own beliefs or thoughts and the other did the same too but the result is the same for both: deceased

A: We need God? Why?

B: To give us hope for a better life. Here, we suffer pain and disease and war.

A selfish use of God. You only want him whenever the circumstances turn bad. Just accept our daily lives are unpleasant.

Without God, what would you tell a mother who just lost her child?

My condolences as the average educated person should do.

Is there anything we inherently deserve? — TiredThinker

I would say happiness but the concept itself is so abstract that depends on how each person interprets it.

How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself? — 180 Proof

We do not have clear information about after death experience yet. This kind of "uncertainty" gives some "hope" to all of those who are suffering a lot of pain in life.
It is true that the act of suicide could be selfish towards family and friends who would suffer the lost of the deceased.
I think suicide should be understood in an individualistic way. If we see it as "collective" it would lose their real nature or meaning.

Were there any cases of suicides during the holocaust? I don't recall reading of mass suicides among those interned in Nazi concentration camps — Agent Smith

That's a pretty good question and thought. I do not recall a specific case of a suicidal victim doing such act just to avoid the concentration camp.
Nevertheless... we have to highlight that Adolf Hitler killed himself before seeing the loss of Nazi Germany

Do you see any light at the end of this tunnel? — Agent Smith

I see it but I am not brave enough to walk up there :death:

Imagine you are upset one day and you decide to saw one of your ears off, a la van gogh. That's not sensible. You've made your situation worse, not better. Now you are upset and you only have one ear. — Bartricks

But here Van Gogh injured himself without dying. It is not the same goal. Probably he did so, as you explained, just to calm some of his anger but I guess he never thought about suicide at all.

The only exception would be if your life is terrible with no prospect of it being otherwise. — Bartricks

Then, you are agree with me with the fact that suicide could be the ending to many unfixable problems.

Physically yes, but not mentally.
Anyway, why I have to do such act? The hermit can do it himself

But... Do you mean harmful in a physical or psychological context? Because for sure it is so painful killing myself if I do sp in a hot fire. Nevertheless, a suicidal tend to find out another alternatives such as hanging.
It would sound so drastic but after doing such act the suicidal would find inner peace and stop suffering from psychological harm

That's why killing others is so wrong.

Exactly, and do you know why is it wrong? Because the killer is selfish and is manipulating other people's lives. That's why is unfair and sad one someone kills another. Each human should have the right of deciding about their own existence. I mean, the chance to decide whenever I don't want to live anymore

Well, yes. It is harm to all the people who are related to the suicidal because they would suffer their lost, but I do not see it as harmful to the dead one because he/she chose this path to end their pain