What I want to say is that suicide depends on circumstances. We cannot say as an overall that the act itself is "contrary to one's interests" because we do not really know what struggles someone who has such big dilemma.
So, I am not sure I am agree if suicide is contrary to my own interests.

Philosophy's job is to provide the tools to innoculate us against the mystification caused by deep grammatical trickery. — Cuthbert

Well written, Sir.
:clap: :100:

Suicide is an insult to life, delivered in the most ways possible.

I think one of the main inconvenients here is the act of seeing "life" as something sacred or worthy. You see suicide as an insult to life because (I guess) you understand there are a lot of reasons to keep living doesn't matter the "temporary" problems we have to deal with.
But what if I say that life is pointless... I am not insulting myself but doing an act of revolution against the status quo. Some see it as the worst scenario but others see it as a solemn solution to the problems.

That's a very important conjecture. To be honest, 180 Proof, I don't know what to answer precisely because I don't know what it feels like when someone survive a suicide-attempt. I wish most of the cases we see the scenario which @Tom Storm shared with us and they end up finding a cause to keep living.
But, probably, there are other examples of survivors that realize that they do not want to die because the act itself can hurt others connected to them such as family or friends

Why seek a permanent escape from temporary problems?

Unfortunately, they are not temporary but perpetual.

How can you be so optimistic that the end is certainly the end of suffering?

It is not about optimism but hope. I guess it is a weak decision to fix the problems but the concept of "end" could be the finish of some important issues such as suffering or depression.

What I try to contemplate with you is that a person with these kind of thoughts rarely have interests or a stupid reason. They just want to finish their lives. Simple as it sounds. The paradox here is the issue that specialists who want to prevent these people from killing themselves tend to show them the pursue of a life full of stupidity and useless. Or as they say so constantly: The way of keep living not matter the suffering

The bottom line is that it's such a great harm to die we want to prevent people from doing it in moments of stupidity — Bartricks

Understandable. But I do not see "stupidity" when someone is walking through a period where they want to kill themselves. I think is a very serious situation and I can't imagine a person with the aim of killing himself just randomly.
Every suicidal tend to have a respectful cause to their actions

You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents

Exactly. This a very important point. Parents do not deserve experience the pain of losing a son because of suicide. I guess it could be the worst scenario possible.
But I am not referring to individuals who are surrounded by family or good friends. I am referring to lonely people. This tend to be the main characteristic of a suicidal.

Most people do find a way to work through the issues and find reasons to live.

Glad to know most of the people find out a situation where they can skip suicide. But Tom, I want to respect all of those who end up in this context. I will not criminalise them. Whenever this issue happens we have to take care of them with honoured acts.
I wish I could understand them better. But I am closer to the meaning of suicide in a Japanese literature point of view

Well written, sir. Excellent statement :100: :clap:

At the end of the day you're going to make the final decision: Life or death. Love or lovelessness. It's up to you. — Moses

Is up to me but whatever I would do it would make some suffer or pain to others, for example my parents or others who care about me. It is not so easy to make "own decisions"

Perhaps one could make an argument in places like Japan where space was limited suicide was more condoned for this reason — Paulm12

Sorry but I do not understand this argument. Do you mean space as the territory itself?
Japan has never been so drastic with suicide until the last decade of this century creating the Ministry of "Loneliness" Tetsushi Sakamoto (坂本 哲志) Minister of Loneliness.
Their artists have always showed suicide as art or as an act of purity

This is why I sound sceptical with religion or sacred books. Why does the Old Testament commands me to choose life over and over again? Like why the prophets were obsessed with the act of living.

I cannot looking for something that doesn't exist

If there is no soul we will already spend the vast majority of time in nothingness so nothing really matters — Moses

Well, I think this is one of the main uncertainties of our lives: the pointless of existence. What really matters at all?

Everyone suffers, and often in their own unique way. Others can often help us alleviate our own suffering — Moses

Good point but trust me, it impossible to help. We will suffer most of the days in this life. We can help each other but it would alleviate few seconds compared to all hours with pain

If you say that a suicide is somehow to be blamed then people will think you are cruel and heartless and have no understanding of the sadness and mental disturbance that leads to someone taking their own life. — Cuthbert

Agreed. At least this is the thought I wish is implemented in most people's minds

This is true if we adopt value neutral individualism, but the Judeo-Christian tradition is not fundamentally individualistic. In Judaism -- out of which Christianity comes from -- our bodies are not on our own, but rather basically considered on loan from God. — Moses

Yes, that's true. I do understand that in these specific religions our body belongs to God so, whenever we hurt ourselves, we are hurting God too.
But I am not agree. I just see it as the average religious subterfuge which only prolong our suffering. It is not fair the statement that I hurt God killing myself but not when I am suffering previously.
If we constantly use the argument of "not hurting" God we are forced to always suffer

The predominant view is that suicide is a sign of mental disturbance. — Cuthbert

I never understood why [suicide] is seen that way. So I guess I am in the minority side.

In the modern West, any connection of suicide to honour and disgrace or to sin and damnation is forbidden and will attract the strongest condemnation. — Cuthbert

It is forbidden because religion has a lot of power in the making of laws in Western world. They always have condemned it and then they influenced the legislative process to make it as a law or rule. To be honest I think it is unfair.
Would you call "delinquent" to a suicidal person?

Some Prefer Nettles, Jun'ichirō Tanizaki (谷崎 潤一郎)

The Sound of the Mountain, Yasunari Kawabata (川端 康成)

If it terminates, this means that there will come a time when you never exist again.

Beautiful, doesn't it? Not existing anymore could mean not experiencing the same failures and disasters again. I do not see this uncertainty in a negative effect. We should be grateful for this gift that the universe brings us.

The Samurai mentality and Bushido wouldn't be the best ethical traditions to build the post-war Japan.

The Western materialistic sense of living neither!

Mishima did not serve in the Japanese forces because he was young (around 19 and 20 years) and an intellectual ready to fulfil his life with literature. I guess his disappointment with modern Japanese society has a lot of points to consider of.
When Japan loses WWII starts a period of lack of confidence on "Japanese values" because they noticed that they weren't good enough to win the war. Since 1945, the new Japanese citizens started to be more Westerly. They use smoking instead kimono. The women are independent instead of being surrounded by Men. Samurai are no longer respectful and Japan became an economical potency without their roots and values.
In this precisely moment Mishima wonders if Japan would disappear if they give up their values and history because the modern society doesn't seem to look like the previous one of WWII. He did his best to re-establish the respect to the emperor and make Japan a country of samurai not entrepreneurs.
When he perceived that nobody didn't care that much as expected he ended his life with seppuku.
But it is important to highlight that for Mishima (and other Japanese artists) suicide is a beautiful ending. It is not perceived as bad as Westerns.

The Japanese have always been a people with a severe awareness of death. But the Japanese concept of death is pure and clear, and in that sense it is different from death as something disgusting and terrible as it is perceived by Westerners. — Yukio Mishima

Shouldn't decision-makers do the right thing regardless of traditions, perhaps even in spite of traditions as the case may be...? — jorndoe

How can you make the right decisions if you do not respect your traditions and values firstly?
We end up in a constant contradiction here

What I have tried to stand is that both values and traditions should not be along with politicians and markets because for me those are invaluables.

There is literally nothing worse. A regression to feudalism without even the minimally positive aspects of capitalism. — Streetlight

But I never spoke about feudalism either capitalism. I think it is a bad move to always mix social challenges with economy. For example: if I am a traditionalist it means that I want to reinforce my roots but it is not necessarily being connected to capitalism or "markets"
This is why Mishima was right. The nations ended up being kidnapped by markets and money.
Who cares about the GDP if I do not know what is the real value of being born in Spain, Japan, USA UK, etc...?

the problem is that the idea that one should sacrifice something for the greater good has become laughable in current societies — ChatteringMonkey

:100: :up:

a drastic pitch to the right as societies disoriented by the ruination of capitalism desperately search for something to give their lives meaning. — Streetlight

Isn't this a right path to choose to?

fascism with Japanese characteristics" — Streetlight

Fascism was an Italian movement for the population of Italy. Thus, an European revolution against socialism. But you have to keep in mind that Mishima was searching a way to escape from Weatern topics. I think Mishima was original in they way he has founded a group or militia. Please do not call him just "fascist" because he wanted to honour their Japanese heritage and traditions.

I do not even understand when you say fascism with "Japanese characteristics"... was Francisco Franco a fascist with "Spanish characteristics?"...

The way of the samurai By 三島 由紀夫, Mishima Yukio.

Palm-of-the-Hand Stories By Kawabata Yasunari (川端 康成)

Whoever this Fumerton is they sound rather silly or you are misrepresenting their point … — I like sushi

Calm down, I just copied and shared his f*cking work. You are judging without proofs if I am misrepresenting whatever. I do not know why the members of this site love to "waster their time" denigrating others.

This thread is like a time travel back to the scholasticism of the 13th century using quantum theory to revive that ancient nonsense. String theory vs angels on the head of a pin. What a waste of the digital resources — jgill

But, you are right, this thread is indeed a waste of electrons, over and out. — Wayfarer

It looks like @Hillary and me deserve to die because our friendly debate...

The argument is a “Kalam”ity.

Oh Jeez :rofl:

knucklehead tennis match taking up most of this thread.

Didn't you like our excited debate? :yum:

I never seen them and neither I want to. Pessimism and nihilistic context is more comfortable

I think you have very good arguments and a well refutation, but sadly, you end up defending God not matter the context or circumstances and that's weak

Do you think there will be no war then? Then I think it's the law to kill or be killed. — Vincent

Well, yes. But I guess this would happen in countries which are used to wars and violence.
For the rest of the world the gap between the rich and poor people will be bigger. But I do not see it as a war like Ukraine or Syria.

Actual existent is not the same as measurable. — Hillary

Why not? Measure is inside the characteristics of "Actual existent"

. If you want proof that bad, you can open your hart to them. And let them in. At least, the knowledge that they exist. Or you can look in quantum mechanical experiments. — Hillary

Sorry but I do not understand this.

You said:

They fit in actual existent — Hillary

Actual existent: Actual existence (observed, measurable, inactive or changing)

And then you ask:

Why you want to measure gods? — Hillary

I don't know. This is what I should ask you: why do you want to measure gods?

Will there ever be an apocalypse? — Vincent

To be honest, we are already in an apocalypse. Climate change is a big issue and it has changed how the earth works and so, our lives.
It is a silent apocalypse which will end up in lack of supplies as food and water.
It is not necessary to be in war to experience an apocalypse