That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is true meaning in life — Dharmi

Sorry. I am so stupid to understand you. My fault

but we should live our lives as if it existed and try earnestly to find it instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. — Dharmi

Yes. You nailed it. There is not a true meaning in our lives. It is something we created. The abstract complex of meaningful life depends on the person itself.
But I don't really know if it's worthy find a solution or a result of our meaningless life instead of giving up. This is why nihilism appears. For me, it is hard to find a meaning in life, even more harder being happy. I am not saying here it is impossible. But somehow it looks like we are forced to discover it.

Also as you said previously. This society is so guilty because they try to send us a fake meaning of life that only a few people can get. This is the main reason why probably there are a lot of sad persons depending the country. They (I refer oligarchs) established a weird way of living: income, being attractive to others and family.
Excuse me but... If I don't live this establishment am I worst? It is impossible to discover because "meaningful" life is abstract and has to be encouraged by educational system.

I think no. It is not racism. It is just personal preferences if you prefer to have sex with white or black people, red/blonde hair etc... Because they are pure personal criteria.
Racism is when you are putting limits to other's rights when they are different race/ethnics from you.

what's the difference between answer types 3 and 4? — TheMadFool

The answer number 3 is correct. The number 4 is incorrect.
When you ask me something I can answer whatever I want but if I do not want to I do the nodded act or another no verbal form.
As you explained it is not only a paradox but grammatically incorrect or ambiguous.
When someone types "no comment" he is literally doing so. If I really do not want participate in this thread I simply no comment but I don't type

no comment

because it is clearly not grammatically correct because I am not expressing properly in that way.
In my opinion "no comment" expression is empty and doesn't make effect as just silence

The principle of equality has prepared men for these things: it has predisposed men to endure them, and oftentimes to look on them as benefits.

This does not satisfy me: the nature of him I am to obey signifies less to me than the fact of extorted obedience.

As you said it was so worthy of read. Thank you for the recommendation of this article/extract from a book. Well this hardens what we are talking about in this thread. We are agree the system is flawed. But it looks like we don’t know what to change. In the Ancient Times they tried everything to establish a situation where the people can have the same opportunities and being useful inside the nation (I refer as nation because we clearly established that State is so different)
But I guess we just created a monster who is by us with zero empathy. We learn how to work and then pay the bills, but... what about happiness? Respecting each other? Ethics?
No! Because we still live in big villas where only the strongest/richest can govern. Everybody has no chance to be a ruler. Let’s be honest
If you look inside the government it is even scary. But... we do not have any system yet. So is this system or a military/religious one.

Exhorted obedience. That is the key of this. We are as obedient as in the ancient times but at least we are not getting in slavery or killed for someone with more power than us... (?)

Good people will do evil things just because the law tells them to. They are no longer acting as men, but as officials. — NOS4A2

Yes because they are brainwashed but fortunately we are not longer being ruled by a military system who forces you to make evil things. Yes we are officials but in not so bad issues inside the diaspore of time we were born. Imagine born in XV or XVI century and kill random people because a king told you just to plump his power.

Asian Man for their translation of the Bible to Japanese: — Gus Lamarch

We even have "Ethiopian Jesus": — Gus Lamarch

Ok, this was so painful to see... I never seen it until to day. With your images it is proven that clearly church used the image of Jesus just for spread their power around the globe. When such an image is so distorted for centuries it makes so difficult to believe in. It is impossible having all the ethnics at the same time, does not matter the perfect human theory that Church is used to use in this debates.
Again, it is interesting because somehow he has to born in Middle East but Church characterised him as a person from a book.

This also happens with Judas as a traitor of Jesus. What about this person? Has he even existed? Just another metaphor from the church using a person model?

We live in large enough societies that your actions will affect people you don't even know and will probably never meet. — Isaac

Well yes. This point can be a good argument about why governments need to enforce the pay of taxes through laws. We live in nations where supposedly we have to help each other but sadly it is not as easy as just the theory. Keep in mind that taxes are always a political debate to start with. So it is not inner in each person give their benefits to help people they will probably never meet

All of the state’s institutions are directed towards preserving its own life, increasing its own power, and enlarging the scope of its own activity. — NOS4A2

This is why sometimes people give up about taxes, justice, public administration, etc... because it looks like governments build the institutions just to help their own interests forgetting the interests of the population.
So... the institutions are not bad at all. It is the selfishness of governors that poison everything they touch.

So this just adds to the mystery. — Dharmi

Yes. I am not against your criteria. Of course is so speculative the existence of Jesus Christ. What I want to say that, Nazareth, or wherever he was supposedly born is nearly Lebanon or Palestine. So If Jesus ever existed his skin had to be brown due to geography logic.
This is the reason why it looks like the image of Jesus is somehow used as marketing by church/Vatican to be more easy look alike.

Why would you think you could spend money that doesn't belong to you? — Isaac

Interesting. I didn’t see it that way. You see it as a primary factor the fact 20 % of our income belongs to the State. This is made in a way that our life in a 20 % depends on State. I am not saying here it is bad but somehow impressive it is inflicted by the laws which percent belongs to State. This is somehow modern sacrifices. We have to sacrifice a 20 % to maintain the State and public services. Agree.

But why we have to enforce it by laws? Why is not innate sharing our benefits to others as human behaviour? Probably because most of the people would avoid paying taxes?

More than a paradox I guess it is even grammatically wrong. Because that person used an expression that did not adjust to the context/practical realism. If someone asks something to me I can answer whatever I want but I can't say "no comment" because is so ambiguous. Probably nodded act is more efficient here.
If I do not want respond I literally do no do it. Because saying ambiguous things as "no comment" is ineffective.

This thread is a good example itself: imagine instead of answering you I didn't want to. Well I just do not answer but I don't say "no comments"

Who do you imagine government is? What do you imagine government is for? — tim wood

Yes. I am not saying government is useless. I want to try to point out why the government needs to enforce us to pay taxes by laws. It is interesting because this shows that probably most of the citizens will not do it by their own.
To be honest, I do not know what the government is for but yes we need because it is impossible live in a society without authority. It would be a chaos. I imagine a less aggressive government but I am dreaming.

Nevertheless, I guess issues that important as taxes should depend on law and judges. I mean, more judicial control rather than politicians because it is so easy to change the tax machine when every 4 years a new government is elected.

You established a very important dilema inside this topic and it is interesting. Which course of action should take the government to make us pay taxes? Why do they need it ?
Here we have clearly a moral/ethical problem. Somehow most of all democracies of the world use this system. Pay taxes to use the public services and then, if you don't do so, you will get punish.
But... Whey they control us? Do not they believe in us? I guess it us noticeable that a considerable amount of rich people do not want pay taxes. I guess they are just somehow selfish but here we have the debate itself.
Are we really free with the money/income we earn each month? Because if we do not pay taxes the government will enforce us to do it. So we are not free at all. In this point, you are even more free buying a property than having the money in a bank.

Note: I am not sayin here that not paying taxes is good. But somehow our income is attached to government laws and regulations just to ensure that everyone (or the majority) will pay their portion needed it.

Perhaps as a discipline it is not taken seriously enough then in the current educational systems.

@TaySan

Literally this is the main problem. Our educational system doesn't take seriously important things which come from philosophy as ethics, moralism, oratory, debate through good arguments, what do we want in life... the reach of happiness

I just read your interesting points of view about Jesus Christ existence or his speculation.

As Gus Lamarch perfectly said: The figure of Jesus Christ had been so distorted, so changed, so adapted, that it is impossible to distinguish the false from the real

This is one of the biggest problems inside Christianity. How they always distorted the image of Jesus. According to scientific research it is supposed that Jesus Christ was born in Nazareth/an Nasira which it is today Israel/Palestine. But it was always been a dessert zone in the Middle East. Probably somehow influenced not only Roman Empire but Persian.
My point here is how ridiculous the symbolism and image of Jesus is a white man with blue yes and blond hair too. Excuse me? It is literally impossible due to the ethnics of the place he was born.

For example. With all the respect possible. It is just impossible of Jesus looking like he comes from Germany or Sweden.
[img]http://

Nevertheless, this representation is closer to Nazareth or Palestine geography or ethnics.

[img]http://


So when someone is so transform during the centuries it makes so difficult to believe in him. Because it makes a free interpretation about a human where he was a prophet in a dessert but ended up creating symbolism about cross/jesus representation. But it looks like there is some marketing flying around.

I say those words because I have tried so hard to raise awareness of what was done and why and I hit the wall of people being sure we must have the education we have and jumping on me for thinking public education should return to education for good moral judgment. — Athena

I understand you. Sometimes it is hard to meet someone who thinks like us. It is quite complex when we as a kid are taught since 3 years old how to do "things" but not question anything. Just do it if you want have a job. Doesn't matter if you are agree or not. You have to pass all the university exams doesn't matter if the classes and the content have quality or not.
So I guess these people are so brainwashed. But one of the things that triggered me the most is how the implanted us the "survive" method. You have to be "better" than the best. But what exactly means being "better"? We lead this meaning just to subjective people like our teachers.
They built a world in education/work of excessive competitiveness. What if an intelligent student cannot get a scholarship because he is just lazy and not feel motivated?
I guess these are different things. It is not the same being lazy or stupid. But our educational system always want the "proof" that we are really good.
As you perfectly said here:

We replaced classic philosophy with German philosophy — Athena

Yes, because German philosophy can lead us to be more practical. Ancient Greek evaluated the mind. This is why Ancient Greek philosophy is important to understand ethics, empathy, honor, etc... Where these basic principles have gone?

Religio" - Religion - is the purest proof that humanity, being unable to accept its egoistic nature, turns its longing for power into its own justification for the struggle for power. — Gus Lamarch

It is literally another branch of powers. Very powerful when you have a lot catholics around the world. Vatican is a State where can go every human does not matter his nationality and feels connected to it.
For me, it is no impressive his selfishness. They were been like this for centuries. But... why the keep secret all the governance inside Vatican? It is so interesting. Are they sacred of something? I can not trust in something that acts in the shades. But somehow the remain there and it looks like everybody respects it. Probably because the people is so ignorant? Am I the ignorant in this case?

We created the religion and its dogma - by revelation -;
People should follow it;
We use the religion for our own gains;
That goes against the dogma;
We accept it;
If God was real - the Christian one - it should act in some capacity against the breaking of its dogma;
He doesn't;
Therefore, he doesn't exist. — Gus Lamarch

Yes. As you perfectly said here. Christian one. I believe Jesus Christ existed. He was just a prophet who wanted to change the reality in Roman Empire. But somehow exactly these are the ones who lantern on make Christianity/Catholicism as a dogma to improve their own benefits. They saw it as a clearly opportunity to increase the power. Why? Because religion took education for centuries until the secularism criteria.

individual growth. In 1917 vocation education as add to public education and this was a wonderful thing! — Athena

Of course it is. Vocational education is one of the pillars in ancient society, this provided making many beautiful things like art, philosophy, or books. But sadly we will not see this anymore, because as you said:

The military technology of the second world war changed the purpose of education. We began preparing the young to be products for industry. — Athena

We still be products for industry. Here is what happens right know: Just go for school to learn the principles of basic. Then, choose a career. Afterward (supposedly) you get a job. Congratulations you are just another brick in the wall. Pay the bill and hmm... use the public services (?) because States want to make us think this is “success”.
How we ended up here? Easy. The governors and government. It is the most powerful aspect in today’s society. If they control education they control everything. They are so clever because we are in an era where is more easier the access for education. So they do not want the vocational education. If you are more open to read you question everything, even the governors... and they do not want so.

I wish we can go back to liberal education. This is literally where works so good in the social welfare states as Norway for example.

Imagine some kid in college who has felt the problem and asks his prof returning from a BLM meeting: "How can I know myself"? What kind or response will he get? That is why nothing changes and everything repeats. We don't know what we ARE. — Nikolas

Well it could be an interesting question for a kid. It depends in the knowledge of that kid because asking who I am only can come from a person who love to read or debate. It is sad but there will be people that will never question or experience this important belief.
As you said, we do not know what we are. Because it is a good metaphysic question. It is free to interpret.
But... somehow it can be quite sad that humans can go to Mars but we don’t explain who we are or how we can be happy (I am pretty romantic sometimes).

Yet if we want to change what we ARE for the good of humanity and ourselves, we first have to learn what we ARE or the qualities of our being. This requires efforts to "Know Thyself" or having the experience of ourselves rather than imagining ourselves. — Nikolas

Yes. Completely. Requires a lot of effort. But the problem starts when we are in a complex situation that our educational system only promotes practical education. They prepare us how to work and have an income but not asking ourselves what is going on
This situation started since Spinoza in the enlightenment, decided put a practical system.

I guess you want to explain that there is no doubt that mind/ideas exist, but The complex situation born when we put everything in practice so the theory gets complexity.
If materialism has a prior problem probably could be. Therefore, I guess this depends a lot of how you were raised in the home/country you were born in. Because the ideas or mind are there, yes, but they are so stimulated in our reality. For this reason, I guess this is why we literally see the same reality in different perspectives. Then, I guess this is the problem of materialism.
Which is the significance we can put in materialism and physics through our ideas? Interesting.

The imposition of the Euro is like a stealth European war. — synthesis

It is. Actually it looks like the classic Europeans wars back in the past. Nevertheless, even though the euro system a has its flaws, I think it has a good cooperative principle: free market between European and a solid currency.
Imagine not having the euro and then other currencies could go to a random European country and buy whatever they want with no it’s real value. I guess this is one of the strategies the Europeans thought back in the day.

But, of course, inside the European system there are some problems too. This morning I say a brief episode of a random channel which asked: “why the Mediterranean economies are so inestable?” and the someone replied: because the Euro is prepared just to the north European countries.
What a complex debate.

The global economy is a massive ruse in many ways and although it works on some levels (particularly for governments and corporations) — synthesis

Yes! And in this quote that you mentioned it is interesting how some countries used the secret bank/tax haven policy (this is why I started this debate) just to try being something in this world.
For example, Nauru and Cook Island were in bankruptcy some years ago. They can pick up the tourism card but let’s be honest it will not work in the long run. So they decided put tax haven policies and it looks like “something” has changed. It is true they are far from the average HDI members but it is better than literally nothing. So... are some countries forced to make cheats just to survive? I guess yes.

The entire Euro-system was doomed from the beginning but that's another story! — synthesis

Agree. This can start a different debate lol.

You seem to be describing mechanical faith which is instilled in someone by adapting to society or indoctrination. Expand your example to the question of government. We can have mechanical faith that it will change things for the better. But somehow it never does. — Nikolas

Yes. It is sad but this is what literally happens in most of the issues which come from governance. Somehow I have blind faith on people. No in governors. Governors are just there to plump theirs pockets with a lot of money and disappoint the people.
But I guess we did not lose everything. It is all about of no depending from government (It is impossible I understand). Because we can use internet and knowledge to improve the circumstances. For example, I have a lot of hope on the people who participate in this forum or other related forums. This what makes the difference. Debating without consideration or prejudices in others.

You seem to be describing mechanical faith which is instilled in someone by adapting to society or indoctrination. — Nikolas

Also yes, I tried to explain it in a mechanical way because in my opinion it could have a chain of working. Nevertheless, as you explained this not necessarily works all the time.

I don't have the means to extend this kind of lifestyle for longer than 10 years. — dazed

I wish you can do it. I am younger than you (23 years old) so I do not know what is the feeling of reach 50 but I guess is an important period of time where you clearly see how everything starts "fading away" slowly.
Nevertheless, despite I am young I also had that feeling of "I don't to continue here" because sometimes life itself is so heavy.
But do not get obsessed in this feeling. Life is a continue challenge. Also you have a partner with you that can support in the worst times. This is a gift because I never had a girlfriend/partner so I think meeting some in life is like a treasure.

Look, our lives soon or after will end. Your and mine. But somehow this is positive. We have to reach goals and make efforts to make the people who love us happy and confortable. Also do not being sad for feeling as "load". This also happens. I don't understand why the brain drives us to some painful situations. Probably to make us stronger?

I am Greek — Franz Liszt

Im Spanish and I love your country. Mediterranean friendship.

Will 2023 be an important year between Greece and Turkey? — Franz Liszt

As you explained previously. Yes it will be an important year. But the circumstances have changed a lot. Europe is really different from 1923.
First of all if paradoxically Turkey declare the war against Greece they will be totally lost. Not only Europe Unión supports Greece but all the occidental powers (NATO I guess). So it will be totally lost of time to Turkey and Erdogan.
Secondly, it looks like they really want be part of European Union. Somehow they are always trying to. If somehow they threat Greece nobody will open their arms to Turkey.

About Cyprus. This point is interesting. I remember that this island is not only geographic important but for taxes. I remember Cyprus was a secret bank/tax haven country. So yes I guess European union also wants Cyprus with them.

I mean, they are forced to lost so Erdogan would be crazy if he tries something with Greece.

we agree it's an accepted means of exchange. — Benkei

True. This is why I say it is philosophy of Economics because we accept some monetary patrons instead of others. Because they are powerful. It is not the same having euros/dollars in your bank account than pesos or rupees.
I mean, it is quite interesting how literally a coin has more value than others. But yes I am agree depends in other facts as goods, industry, revenue, etc... That makes the monetary system of this country more powerful than others

How many would pay taxes if there wasn't a punishment for not doing so?

Thus, governments take what they want under threat of violence.

Whether that is ethical I will leave to each to decide for their own. — Tzeentch

This post is very important. Here where my debate started for.
Literally only a few of people would pay their own taxes if laws were not punished them. So I guess this is why it is interesting how we have a dilemma/debate in the modern world.

Is ethical to pay taxes? Well supposedly yes... But sometimes it looks like the government does not take advantage of this. So all the problems is how we are governed in the the country you live in.
As someone previously said the Nordic countries have a lot taxes but it looks like it works so well. They have the so called "welfare state" but somehow only works there

Mechanical faith is what you were taught to believe. Emotional faith is belief based on fear which is why it is considered the blind faith of slavery — Nikolas

Not necessarily. I guess not all faiths drive you to slavery or being slave of your circumstances. When you have some beliefs and then, you believe in something particular (religion, atheism, politics, etc...) doesn’t make you slave because it is not painful to you. You just believe and do the best to pursuit happiness or whatever situation that is worthy is society. It is all about how we evaluate it.
But I guess the blind faith is not a negative aspect. Sometimes it can lead you to change something.
In our progress as a human we need: faith, beliefs and believe in.

For example: I have the faith we can distribute natural resources differently. We have beliefs on it. Then, we believe in the change and take some actions.

I want to follow you but it is quite complex when it is hard to me understanding principles of economics. Nevertheless, thanks for your statements and arguments to make me have more knowledge.
Here is interesting how you explained to me what was the path of the US dollar after the WWII ended.

Primarily, all other currencies would be valued against the USD as they were towards gold previously. — synthesis

. This makes a country so much powerful. Having a currency that is so valuable around the world makes the difference.
But I guess (If I finally get your points) one of the most difficult goals is facing the dollar. So probably this is the reason why the Eurosystem was created. New profitable currency which can face the Dollar.
Nevertheless p, it is interesting because we are giving “value” to some coins than others.

You should read up on how the international monetary system works — synthesis

I will. Thank you for the recommendation.

but none of this tells us anything about the human being, which reaches out to experience and explore meaning and ask philosophical questions. — Jack Cummins

Completely! But this is why we are so unique as humans. There are some subjects or criteria that the doctors can’t describe at all. I guess it is better this situation. Sometimes we need to go further in physics or body. It is important trying to understand how our soul or mind work. It is one of the most dilemmas in society. What do we want? How we can pursue happiness?

As you perfectly has said, something is lost. I guess it is the lost of finding happiness. Look how human can go to Mars (true! It is a good goal) but we do not know how to be happy because it is so complex.

However, on a personal level, we know ourselves so much more intimately. I think that this level of knowing is important, and perhaps, in our most intimate relationships this can be explored further. — Jack Cummins

Agree. This point is very important. How we are ourselves is very unknown to others. I guess it’s even a private right keep our personality secret to others. This means that only people who you really trust you will open your “heart” or “persona”. I think it is beautiful. But it also depends in the person. I guess there are people who wants to be more conservative/introvert.

Protestantism only emerged when Christianity itself became to be secularized. — Gus Lamarch

Yes. Probably because it emerged another political power that could face government one. Remember the fact that Vatican is literally a State. Pope is like a governor of the world/his world. So, since the day Pope randomly said to Henry VIII, “hey you cannot divorce from your woman because the Bible forbids it” completely blown up his mind.
It was a fight about governance. I respect the people who believe in God or religion. But it is clear that is just another power itself. They played a very important role in some countries and education. When this kind power somehow conflict themselves something can happen. Who should control the education of masses? Education or religion? Well this is one of the biggest debates about governance.
Some countries preferred the education other the religion. In those countries whose system/education is religion, the secular power increased a lot.

Since money is debt in this system, the amount of interest that must be paid to keep the system going necessitates that more and more money be created simply to make this payment. — synthesis

Yes! But this point is the most interesting at all. I understand how you have explained how money/value works in economics. Also the fact what happens with debts and payment and also the how works the bank system.
But... Why some currency are better than others? I mean, if you start creating a lot of American dollar it is worthy because is a powerful currency. But this does not happen with pesos or rupiah.
So I guess it also depends, as you said, in the value of that country? (income, GDP, goods, profit, revenues, etc...)

Deflation is the natural order of things. Inflation is the anomaly. Here's why... — synthesis

Thanks for your explanation. Very appreciated. It cleared my mind.

There two important things here: myself and how others see myself as how I think or my perceptions.
For example, check this dialogue:
who are you? Javier
Yes but which Javier?
Excuse me?
Yes, which Javier in the other's people minds.
Which one is the real?
To whom are you exposing your real self?

The word "person" meant is Ancient Greek mask so this says all.

How we are perceived by others is really important. Yes we have only one unique body and it's characteristics but the reflection is not as basic as just physical.

affects us on a personal and social level. — Jack Cummins

You have completely nailed it. Affects a lot in many ways. But also depends in the open mind of the other person.
Will you hire a new employee who is tattooed all the head? I will not mind but probably other will do...

I guess I will sound negative but I think we live an era which we evaluate a lot the way of how other are exposing theirselves

PS I would not know happiness if I had not stumbled onto philosophy! If it were not for philosophy I would still be one of the most miserable people on earth. — Athena

Same here. I remember philosophy was very important in my life when I was 18 years old in my last grade of high school before starting the university. I was alone in class because I was "freak" for just reading books. Everyone had girlfriend/boyfriend and big group of friends except me so I felt really alone because that period of time is completely awful. It looks like you have to show something to just join a group of friends.
Reading books not only philosophy but literature (Don Quixote and Ulysses) etc... Give another hope in life.
I also had that feeling of giving up and being frustrated asking myself: "why the hell my teens suck?" but I was making a mistake. I was looking more the life of others instead of mine.
I started accepting myself and then everything changed for better. I am happy of who I am and I do not need someone to love me or being friends with. I am not force to do it.

I mean "faith" sorry I made the same mistake.

I've never seen the word "feith" before, and I'll assume that you mean "faith".

@Metaphysician Undercover

Sorry. English is not my native language sometimes I make some grammar mistakes.

Yes I am agree with you. It is interesting how you you put feith previously to belief. I think you are right in this point. As much as we need the effort to improve our memory we need exactly faith to improve the beliefs. Here we see that the premises change again but to better.
We do the effort of having faith in x. Then, we start making a belief in x. Subsequently, "we believe in x"

So this is the chain which starts everything. I guess without feith nothing can starts.

They still be guilty. Not about the fact of prostitution but hypocrisy. Back in the time Church and clergy were so powerful controlling the minds of the citizens: if you do this or that God will punish you. It is inmoral
But... In the shadows they were the more sinners of all. It is interesting how you shared with us how the Roman Empire even created a law about "Christian prostitution". Well this reflects how powerful the clergy was always been. If I am enough powerful to join in the State institution I can act whatever I want and I force the jurists to make laws in my favor/ambitious.
Meanwhile the population was there thinking or feeling guilty for stealing an Orange or Chicken to just eat...

Well this text proves why in Europe slowly started a fight between protestantism/calvinists and the Curch in the coming centuries.

Like any form of memorizing, it requires effort, and effort is only made when there is a reason to make it — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. We have here the "hope" of wanting our live to improve. Everything needs an effort but previously we do need to have beliefs and then believe in... As you perfectly said previously.
More than a reason I guess is important how to perceive our feith. Sometimes hope and belief are upon the reason itself.
Probably the reason could say to you "do not do it because it is impossible" but the beielfs and feith say to you "let's do it we have another chance"