I was listening to this yesterday afternoon because of the Euros feeling. I don’t usually watch football, but you know when our nations play against each other... I have butterflies in my stomach. :broken:

It will not be easy, that's for granted. But we all (EU members included, absolutely) need to fix something that couldn't have ever happened. Sometimes politicians lie to us, making us think one way is better than the other, but at the end of the day, the population ends up paying the price. I could understand that some EU bureaucrats can't be trusted at all. Germany has its own interests too, etc. I guess there will not be any issue on the Mediterranean nations side. I care about Europe. I also believe there is a possibility of getting through. The citizens are always the ones who sweep up the mess of the politicians. It is not the time to be divided. We already had that time back in past years. Wars of religion, nationalism, political ideologies, etc. It is something we no longer deserve. We are the candle of civilisation, and we don't need to be heavily dependent on the USA or China. We can do it on our own. If we couldn't reach it via politics, we could try it via culture, at least.

*That was a tiny excerpt from my address at Westminster. Sorry if there are any grammatical hiccups.

I am still so glad I left England when I did, that place is fucked up — Sir2u

It will no longer be a wrecked country. With Starmer as PM and my seat, everything will be OK. I see a re-accession to the European Union on the horizon.

Look, mates, hmm… 649 of the 650 possible seats are already declared, but there is one left. I don’t know if I am able to say this, but that seat is mine, actually. I won it to Liz Truss in East Londonderry. So, due to these exceptional circumstances and chaotic situation, I vow to declare my seat, if only His Majesty the King and Starmer allow me to do the following:

The VAT has to be reduced, and the price of a pint of beer will be £1 from now on.
@unenlightened will be the only real assessor for internal and external disputes. 
@BadenRob has to be the next Speaker of the House of Commons and appointed ambassador to Spain.
@Jamal has to be the next president of the Scottish Supreme Court. 
The full recognition of Palestine as a state.
No more pollution in the atmosphere. With the aim of achieving this, I plead with His Majesty the King to make the metro and bus free. 
@Sir2u has to be the next Chancellor of Oxford University to teach Spanish there.

This letter has already been sent to ‘The Telegraph’ …

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/general-election-2024/

Signed: Javier,

Thank you for your insight and explanations.

So, for example, in my local constituency, labour won the seat comfortably with just over 33% of the vote. — unenlightened

Let me guess. Your constituency is Chatham and Aylesford. :smile: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2024/jul/04/uk-general-election-results-2024-live-in-full

Given this situation, the fact that there are over 100 third, fourth, fifth party and independents is highly significant. I hope this will persuade Labour towards some electoral reform. — unenlightened

Although, it is not in the same context, be careful with those small parties. We have independent parties in our Congress, and they persuade the main party (PSOE, that is the Labour Party), but just for personal benefits, forgetting the common and national goals. 

TA-DA.

Say good morning to your new Prime Minister, lads.

Yes. The whole point of the topic is about when human demarcation is absent. — noAxioms

:up:

But it isn't even furniture without humans to name them so. They serve purpose to humans. Your examples are of human made artifacts, which serve a specific purpose to a human. — noAxioms

I agree. All of those objects serve a purpose for humans, but I think this is not the main point of my argument. Although they are dependent on human purposes, they are necessarily part of a house. I mean, you would not put a sofa or a fridge in the moon, just as a twig would not flourish randomly in a corridor. We can imagine in the abstract, but I think there should be a basic sense in order to attach things to others. You claim (if I am not mistaken) that their ‘attachment’ serves human purposes, but I still believe they have intrinsic value. I will not light up a candle in the sun. Would you? How will the latter satisfy my purpose? 

A sofa 'knows' it is a sofa, or at least where its boundaries are, or that it is useful to humans? in what way does that make sense? — noAxioms

But why should everything be useful to us? Didn’t you ever think of the pure lonely existence of that sofa?
Consider what happens if a nuclear bomb destroys all of human life and leaves only that sofa. Do you believe the sofa will lose its sense since it will no longer meet a human need?

I had no idea you were joking about Biden's dementia until I read @Benkei’s post. I am naïve about politics. :snicker:

The 2024 United Kingdom general election is today! Are you ready, mates?
Most of the opinion polls say Labour will win a large number of seats. Let’s see what happens.

Here’s a mediocre 20 minute read that you could be currently reading… — Fire Ologist

Spamming your OP is not allowed. :roll: We talk about books and literary recommendations in this thread.

Samurai trilogy

The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi.
Hidden by the Leaves by Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
Bushido: The Soul of Japan by Inazō Nitobe

No, I asked where 'this' stops. I never said 'building'. — noAxioms

Are you really sure? ...

Where does the building stop? — noAxioms

Still, purpose is defined by the humans that find utility in the 'object'. The topic is about an object in absence of such ideals such as purpose. — noAxioms

I agree. Human convention defines 'purpose,' and the building exemplifies this. What I don't understand is why you wish to eliminate such principles. As far as I can tell from this thread, most objects and things are defined by human conventions or other categories that make them 'interesting.' Are you arguing that there could be an intriguing object that lacks human ideals?

I don't think a beam of energy say 'knows' anything about human purpose. — noAxioms

Obviously, and I don't think it is necessary to go too far. What I tried to argue is that there are objects which are dependent upon others just for need. The furniture, walls, ceilings, etc. are attached objects to the principal which is the building. Otherwise, where would you put furniture? In middle of the forest? That would be senseless. You claim this is due to human purpose, but I think those 'objects' know the destination of its utility.

The word invokes a convention, and the convention typically includes all those parts, but how about the piles or the utility hookups? Where does the building stop? Does it include the furniture and people? That question was asked in the OP where I explore the concept of what you weigh, and exactly when that weight changes. — noAxioms

Yes, I follow you and the sense of your OP. I remember when we talked about chopping the twig off, for instance. I know that it would sound silly to say that without a twig, the tree no longer exists, and therefore, the forest either. But this is exactly the trace I want to keep up! I think the example of the house is better.
You asked me: Where does the building stop? Does it include the furniture and people?
Of course, it includes furniture and people. :smile:
What would be the point of constructing a building, then? The building, as an object, precisely stops when it lacks everything above. The combination of the walls, furniture, ceiling, roof, and people makes the 'building', and when an element of the set is left, the building as an object is senseless. I wish I could go deeper regarding the example of the twig and the forest because I still see symmetry in both cases. 

But in the absence of language, how does anything 'know' that 'building' is the object of interest? — noAxioms

The object of interest is inherent in the building. The remaining 'things' are attached to it. They ‘know’ that the building is of interest to them.

That example was meant to demonstrate the opposite. If I reach out and touch the bark and ask how large 'this' is, am I talking about the twig, branch, tree, forest, or something else — noAxioms

I think I understand you better, mate. But it surprised me when I read that, according to your view, the Midas example proves the opposite of what I say. Well, yes, if we talk about measurement, and you ask me how large the bark is, we are in different physical objects independent of each other then.
Nonetheless, I think we should not dismiss the fact of the “set” of the physical object “tree” and the physical group “forest”. I still claim they are all a dependent set. If there is no twig, there is no bark either to measure.
Imagine a building for a second. This structure encloses walls, roof, floors, columns, etc. If I talk about a “building” I also refer to all those elements, right?
Well, the same happens to a tree and therefore the forest. Whatever part I am referring to, it includes the sum of the set.

If there was a physical convention, there'd be an answer to that. There seemingly isn't. — noAxioms

Why does it appear like there are no answers?

I know those questions are for @noAxioms, but they are so interesting that I want to dive into them as well.

Does “convention” equal “A way in which something is usually done in accordance with an established pattern.”? — ucarr

I think it does. But the point here is to know to what extent things exist or not due to universal convention. I would like to use the example of a few pages before: a twig is followed by a tree and then the combination of these two makes the forest. This set is interesting. I personally believe a set of different things are dependent on universal convention, for instance. Furthermore, if we are focused on non-material “things” like time, justice, property or democracy.

Are “convention” and “utility” the antecedents for “things.”? — ucarr

ucarr, what do you mean by “antecedents” here? I think convention and utility are attachments to physical objects.

Are you saying ‘object’ is a non-physical construction of the mind? — ucarr

This is a great question. I would like to know the answer of @noAxioms. When I exchanged some thoughts with him, he claimed everything object is connected to something. I guess he was referring to the construction of the mind.

Is ‘object’ the antecedent of ‘it.’? — ucarr

Ahh, which came first? The classic golden question. I think an object is a representation of reality which holds both primary and secondary qualities. I mean, we call the “object” the thing that can be measured, seen, colored, compared, etc. and other types of properties which make the object an “it”. So, even if I might be wrong, I would say “object” came first than “it.”

Does infinity actually mean that there is always one more, or does it just mean the possibility of it? — Sir2u

I think Plato means that there is always one more dog. If we take this to maximum, it could be, somehow, plausible, and I guess I have to agree with Plato.
But I cannot see it in regression. It is not plausible to think that there is always one dog who eats less than the previous one. Yes, I know that Athena stated there was enough food for every dog. But my point is that, sooner or later, we will reach the bottom and there will finally be a dog who eats less than all the “infinity” intermediate dogs. I think this is more plausible than to think that there will always be one dog and another in both extremes continuously in a loop.

Full Democracies

…

Austria

Malta

Spain — Wheatley

Funny to read an assertion like that. You put us at the bottom. I guess that means we are closer to a flawed nation than a real full democracy like Ireland or Austria.

Plato doesn't accept the existence of Zeno's dogs. — ssu

and @Metaphysician Undercover @Sir2u

I guess that’s why he [Plato] explained again to Zeno that there cannot be a dog that eats the most, because there is always a dog that eats more. I am still confused regarding Plato’s argument. Yes, it is clear to me that Plato roots for infinity counting of dogs, but I think he forgets two basic dogs: the one who eats the most (the dog at the peak) and the dog who eats the least (the dog at the bottom). I think the argument of Zeno is more plausible. On the other hand, Plato argues that there cannot be a dog that eats the most, because there is always a dog that eats more. He sees infinity towards the maximum. But what about the dog who eats the least? If there is always a dog that could eat less, there will be a dog who will eat nothing at all. How can it be possible to find a dog who will eat less than previous dogs and so on? I think this has to be switched and follow Zeno’s point of limited counting: Zeno's least eating dog eats < any other dog there exists eats, and then start to count. Agree?

Zeno could have said, "let me know when you get to the dog that eats the most, and the dog that eats the least", and Plato could have said "OK". Problem resolved. Instead, Zeno said you are "forgetting" these two dogs. But Plato is not "forgetting" them, he has not yet found them, so there is no need for them to have ever entered his mind. — Metaphysician Undercover

Got it. Zeno completely comprehended Plato's reasoning, although he did not convey the correct response. Instead, Zeno assumed that Plato had forgotten two elementary dogs, which is incorrect. Plato merely dismissed them as irrelevant to his argument. However, those two dogs, the one that eats the most and the other who eats the least, exist for both Plato and Zeno. Right? :smile:

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote in your post. It is funny and interesting to debate about this, and I appreciate your effort to explain it to me. 

And then, if you think that there's just two Zeno's dogs, how about then all the transcendental dogs between them. — ssu

Exactly. As you mentioned, the rest of the dogs are simply transcendental in the situation. What I know for certain is that there will be at least two dogs: one that eats the most (let's call him dog >) and one who eats the least (let's call him dog <), but I'm not sure who dog b is, because the latter is just transcendental to the scale. What I can't do, if I understand Zeno correctly, is start counting by dog b or another random dog "x" because my numbering will be irregular due to forgetting those two dogs. The one who "starts" and the one who "ends," or, to put it another way, the one at the bottom and the other at the top.

Interesting example, friend. I now understand this tricky game a bit more. But I still don’t understand why you state that ‘Whether there is a hottest or coldest possible temperature is irrelevant to this alternative way of scaling.’ Are you suggesting that it is irrelevant to Plato whether there is a dog who eats the most and another who eats the least? Well, maybe. But the rules stated by Athena say: ‘All the dogs eat the same food, which is divisible, and there is enough of it for every dog’ but Zeno argues (and I agree with that) that by randomly picking up a dog and then starting to count from it the various quantities other dogs, was missing at least these two dogs, one that ate the least and one that ate the most.

And the second rule states that there are no constraints on quantity (physical or otherwise), and hence on dogs. So Zeno is right here. There will always be one dog who eats the most and another who eats the least, which I believe is relevant to this issue, and Plato overlooked these two dogs in his counting.

and @Metaphysician Undercover

You both had a very interesting exchange. I am sorry, ssu. His reply to me and Elephant was awesome, but I didn't know what to answer back because I do not have a big background in math and logic. The replies by MU are pretty good too.
Under my very basic sense of logic or math, I still root for Zeno because of the following: by randomly picking up a dog and then starting to count from it the various quantities other dogs, was missing at least these two dogs, one that ate the least and one that ate the most. After all, didn't their amounts that they ate differ from all the other dogs?

I agreed. Even if the dogs are uncountable, at least one will eat the most, followed by the least. But this is only a very basic concept of mine. I can't keep debating with logic or numbers, as you did. But, sure, I believe Zeno's two dogs must exist since there is always a "most" and a "least," correct?

Laws, legistlation & jurisprudence correspond to "social control". — 180 Proof

Control? I thought the police department was responsible for 'controlling' us, and that the laws served as a guide to how we should behave. Even the jurisdiction and courts ought to control the 'controller' (police officers, militaries, politicians, jail officers, etc.).

In all moral issues it's the ultimate goal of each side to enforce themselves on a legal or political level. — Judaka

I agree. That is a good point. Law enforcement is one of each state's primary tools for upholding a moral code of conduct. It reminds me of when the Spanish government declared same-sex marriage legal in 2005. A section of Catholic groups opposed this because they believed it was unethical. Nonetheless, the Congress chose to enact legislation to protect the freedom of same-sex couples to marry since it was morally from a civil standpoint. Two opposing moral viewpoints were confronted. Fortunately, the law passed over the religion.

Moral principles

As far as I can see, all formal moral philosophies, and certainly any philosophy that specifies how other people should behave, is not moral at all, or even really a philosophy. It’s a program of social control - coercive rules a society establishes to manage disruptive or inconvenient behavior — T Clark

Moral principles are part of the roots of each civilisation. From Orthodox or Christian moral values to Taoism. All of them have some pillars that guide people on how to behave properly in society. You understand them as 'coercive rules' but I personally believe it goes deeper than that. Moral principles are part of our culture. 

I believe one example of my argument is the 'sacred' standard of respect for family members. In general, children owe respect to their parents, and vice versa. When this essential moral principle is broken, members of this community experience despair, existentialism, and even nihilism, among other things, because one of these moral (Christian) principles (or 'codes', if you prefer) is no longer present.

They are embedded in us. It is difficult to imagine a community that could survive without those. Dostoevsky discusses this dilemma and sorrow in the majority of his books. But we've previously discussed this excellent author in our email correspondence, Clarky. :smile:

Falkirk Wheel (Scotland).

includes reorienting AI development towards ethical goals, educating and empowering individuals, promoting holistic economic models, and advocating for supportive policies — Pantagruel

All of those goals were set by mankind once, but only a few nations ever pursued them. Now, it appears that most people have given up on themselves and are thinking, "Let's try to be more supportive or ethical towards others using AI," because it is evident that we will not be able to achieve such goals.

Zeno is right. Not by reason of counting. Rather, by rule #2, the one that eats "the most" and the one that eats "the least" are conceptual quantities that differ from any other quantities already given. — L'éléphant

I agree. I had identical thoughts, but I couldn't find the perfect words to express them as you did. :sweat:
Yes, I am one of the 60% of voters that chose the second choice.

Then come up with a definition of 'connected' that doesn't make everything into one connected thing. — noAxioms

To be honest, I believe we are mixing up distinct notions here. 'Connected' means to be joined to something else. For example, when I connect the red wire to the red port or connect the electricity and water supply to my home. It appears (to me) that some elements are linked to one or two things at most, but not to everything.
While 'interdependent' (as I used in my argument) refers to groups that are dependent on one another. We may say that if every element is interdependent, then everything will turn gold with the touch of Midas. Nonetheless, I still disagree. There are some elements dependent upon one another (twig + branch + tree = forest. All these are a common and interdependent set) while others don't. I can't see how the air or the clouds could be golden too, according to your argument.

But everything is connected, or nothing is. I mean, everything interacts via fields of force (as jkop put it). What is a connection if not that? — noAxioms

I agree. What I'm trying to say is that the interaction is dependent on a collection of 'things' or 'objects'. Your example began with a twig and continues as follows: a twig + the tree + the forest. These three elements combine to form a common set. If Midas touches one of the elements, the set turns gold. However, because 'everything' is connected, we may believe that the ground and then the earth will become golden as well. I disagree with the latter. I don't get how if Midas transforms a forest into gold, the Sahara Desert becomes linked to the same chain. There are no trees in the desert, thus I don't understand how it is dependant on the first set of twig + tree + forest.

Everything is not necessarily connected.

I thought you said Midas touched a twig, not a forest. Why do you think the entire forest becomes golden? By this logic, wouldn't literally everything on Earth become golden when a twig is touched. I don't understand your reasoning here. — NotAristotle

At first, I thought the same thing. According to his (@noAxioms) theory, everything would turn to gold with Midas' single touch. But I believe the essential point is that it only impacts things that are connected to one another. The twig, the tree, and finally the forest turn golden because they are all interdependent. However, Midas' touch will eventually lose its effectiveness. For example, consider the Sahara Desert and Antarctica. There are no woodlands there. The twig was the intended object, and the forest got golden on purpose because they are interdependent. Midas cannot turn Antarctica into gold with a single twig.

For this reason, I personally believe there is the possibility to stop the forest from becoming golden. If I chop the twig with the axe or rip out the roots, the process ends. Well, if I remove one element of the set, the magic of Midas is over.

Midas touches a twig. What turns to gold? The twig, branch, tree, forest? The word 'tree' was never conveyed. The intent might not even be there. The touch may have been unintended. — noAxioms

The twig is a portion of the tree, and the set of the latter is the density that makes up a forest. If Midas touches a twig, everything turns gold unintentionally because each element is interdependent. It would be different if Midas cut a twig with another object (like an axe) and then touched it. Once an element has been lost, the chain of turning into gold is no longer present.

What then is an uninteresting phenomena? — jkop

Good question. I believe uninteresting phenomena are those that lack primary qualities such as bulk, figure, texture, motion, and so on. As a result, our senses have little ability to recognize them. I'm aware that this argument sounds rather Lockian...

Is love real? The United States of America? One of my dreams? — T Clark

A feeling, a country, and a state of mind. Clarky, I assume those exist by common convention, but I'm not sure how 'real' they are. Yes, the United States has a specified territory, but isn't this acknowledged as convention rather than reality?

Symposium, Nikos Kazantzakis.

Vacaciones en el Cáucaso, María Iordanidu.

Again, don't miss Greek literature! It's pure and beautiful.

It's traditional music of Smyrne, an old city of Turkey (hence the music) part of which has been inhabited by Greeks. — Alkis Piskas

Interesting. I appreciate it for letting me know. I discovered another cool fact today because of you! :smile:

@Alkis Piskas Hello, Alkis. I was listening to some versions of 'milo mou kai mandarini' yesterday afternoon. I'd want to share the ones I enjoyed the most with you. I suppose you'd like to listen to them whenever you have time. What a beautiful and charming tune this Greek traditional song has. :flower:

RIP Donald Sutherland. Sublime actor. I remember his characteristic role of 'Atilla' in 1900. This movie is great. Good drama and magnificent actors.

I am not usually happy in summertime. I don't like this season. It is full of days with high temperatures and sweating is disgusting. But June is being acceptable this year. We have been having 'summer storms' since this past Monday in Madrid.

Yet I am still negative towards summer. July and August will be like a boiled pot...

A partir del momento que podemos decir "El multiverso no es real", "real" no tiene solamente sentido en contexto metafísico, tiene sentido en contexto físico también. — Lionino

Sabía que esto ocurriría tarde o temprano, y más utilizando la lengua española (como cualquier otra, aparte del inglés). Efectivamente, Austin olvide en su ensayo el contexto con el cual las palabras son utilizadas y además, está enfocado a utilizar la palabra "real" desde la perspectiva anglosajona. Pero incluso en este punto, Austin sigue siendo testarudo y afirma que "real" es dimensional. Es decir, qué generalmente se utiliza dicha palabra para el mismo contexto y la mayoría de las persona tienden a escoger esta palabra antes que otra del mismo ramo (sus sinónimos). Esto pasa lo mismo con desaparecido. Creo que jamás he encontrado a una persona que haya usado la palabra "exangüe"
Al final, la gente tira para lo fácil. Para la fachada. Van a seguir usando la palabra "real" aunque su significado varíe mucho dependiendo del contexto.

El uso de las palabras, de la lengua, no es tan misterioso ni complejo. Palabras se refieren a cosas en la mente de las personas, a menudo dos personas no piensan la misma cosa con la misma palabra; — Lionino

Te encantaría leer a Austin, sin duda. :smile:

¿Pero "ir allá de lo básico" no se aplicaría también a todas las palabras que son dichas "ambiguas"? Ese argumento me parece ser un chivo expiatorio. — Lionino

Efectivamente, pero muy pocas veces se cae en ello. Al final ambigüedad, según la RAE significa: Que puede entenderse de varios modos o admitir distintas interpretaciones y dar, por consiguiente, motivo a dudas, incertidumbre o confusión.

¿La palabra "real" ocasiona dudas o confusión a la gente? Yo pienso qué no. Creo que la mayoría tiene una opinión vaga de lo "real". Sin embargo, si a alguien le digo: La ciudad de Lisboa es sublime...
Si esa persona no es muy letrada, no me entenderá, tendrá confusión y no sabrá lo qué digo. Por lo tanto, le tengo que decir: La ciudad de Lisboa es muy bonita. "Bonita" absorbe a sublime ya qué la primera no da lugar a ambigüedades.

Sí, como un poema cualquiera. ¿Se supone que es un trabalenguas o algo así? — Lionino

No, no. En efecto es un poema infantil básico. Pensé que a los niños les resulta más sencillo los poemas porque en su mente le es fácil seguir las vocales. Supuse que por eso las vocales son naturales y el núcleo de la lengua. Si cambio ese poema y lo hago haiku o sin rimar, sus mentes infantiles no me seguirían en absoluto porque su cerebro todavía tiene que madurar...