You are describing the forming of energy into more complex forms, that we conceptualize as elementary particles, that form atoms, that form molecules, that form cellular proteins, that form cells, etc. — Pop
But the quantum world seems random and probabilistic - it has no form - it only has probability. — Pop
Yes we are still talking about an energetic particle, but it has been entangled to form. Consciousness has many forms. It is about information processing. Needs to memorize information to a stable form — Pop
The scientific method is always to try and break processes down into their fundamental components, and people have, in their different ways, distinguished between factors that might combine to generate consciousness. I felt that your discussion was weakened by treating consciousness as a single thing.
Finipolscie talks of 3 components - Awareness, Control, and Thought.
I think he settled on these three because they are all scalable, and seem to reflect different properties that could potentially be attempted by mechanical/chemical processes.
Other authors may find different ways to sub-divide consciousness, but ultimately an explanation must be found in the basic processes of nature.... and I don't see you focusing-in on what the necessary base-level requirements might be. — Gary Enfield
f information preservation is fundamental, then everything is integrating information. This is consistent with the modern definition of consciousness ( information integration ). It occurs through self organization. Self organization is caused by external elements. Self organization creates a self, entirely from elements external to self. The only thing that belongs innately to the self is the information it preserves. The information is stored as a pattern of materials. Simply put, the information is the arrangement or pattern of materials. In the case of living things it is an animated pattern of materials. The animation is itself an emergent pattern. Life is an animated pattern. An animated pattern is a process.
Does this make sense? — Pop
Can you elaborate on this a little? I can see how all elements of the system must continue to evolve interrelationaly, in order to preserve the system - is this what you mean? This occurs at all levels of the system - each level plays a role in maintaining the whole. Each level solves its own idiomatic problems, this would include buisness and love, but all levels have only one manner of being as a self organizing system in the process of interellational evolution. — Pop
So the information of how the system was effected ( how it changed form ) was preserved, unfortunately not all the story that caused its change of form, is preserved in the form. Still the continuity of information is evident, even though we can not decipher it totally. — Pop
This would mean that the original information that created the system would be preserved in the form of elements of the system somehow. The RNA hypothesis seems pretty strong to me. It did not self replicate, according to Stuart Kauffman, but copied its neighbour RNA, whilst at the same time its neighbour RNA copied it! Its easy to see how out of this relationship DNA could evolve as a double helix of RNA. — Pop
Yes, I can see why the information would have to be preserved, and at the same time a closed system would have to move in the direction of greater complexity ( due to the entropic principle outlined earlier ). So the information exchanged becomes more and more complex. Is this process enough then to be captured by evolution and progressed from there to something self sustaining? I suppose, if not, then the process wouldn't survive.
I think what is significant is that it is information that is being exchanged ( as energy or form), and so ultimately it is the exchange of information that must become more complex, and self sustaining? — Pop
Every why question pertaining to natural phenomena can be answered by self organization ( more or less ). Why does a fish have scales? - self organization. Why does a dinosaur form here and a human there - self organization. Why is the universe just so? - self organization!
What do you think self organization is? — Pop
Thanks for this, I was not aware. So if we change either the energy or the information, then a different pattern results. It is still matter - as different waves of energy propagating over something material / or a field. And ultimately everything is really just patterns of energy - pattern upon pattern in a space that is a pattern. Patterns of energy interacting with each other and perhaps changing their information in the process - could this be a fundamental information exchange?
If so then it is"discrete patterns of interacting energy exchanging information" that would have to self organize, as this is what happens in pockets of the universe that are not chaotic. — Pop
I am trying to understand consciousness. I think I have a pretty good understanding in terms of phenomenology psychology, and belief systems, and now am trying to understand how it fits into the big picture / how it creates the big picture. — Pop
If we can imagine various amino acids trapped in a membrane, where they have to self organize, and there is a predetermined direction of self organization towards greater complexity, then this provides a model of how cellular proteins might have evolved initially. It is a viable explanation and answers how life might have arisen, but when asked why did this occur? physics can only provide another how explanation. It can not answer why! Physics answers how, not why. The why, however, can be answered by saying that this is how the universe has self organized. — Pop
The relationship of energy and information = matter, from E=mc2. From this view matter is an emergent property that arises from the relationship of energy and information. — Pop
I'm glad that you acknowledge self organization in amino acids. This is the foundation of life - where inanimate matter becomes animated. If we then jump from the beginnings of life to its ultimate achievement - human consciousness, I think you will agree that it arises from self organization, for the purpose of self organization. Also all the layers of the system in between are self organizing, as are their component parts - amino acids self organize to form proteins, the self organization of proteins forms cells, the self organization of cells forms organs, etc., etc. When an organ is transplanted, the donor organ is not reconnected to the nervous system, as that is not currently possible. The organ carries on working regardless - it knows what to do as it is self organizing. Systems like the immune system are entirely self organizing. Components like a white blood cell work independently - untethered to a system of control. The entire system as a whole, as well as all of its component parts are self organizing!
How can self organization occur without consciousness? I don't think it can. — Pop
I think we like or dislike music because we were made this way.
I would also say that the problem in expanding your 'evolutionary test bed' to the whole of the universe is that the distances are too great, and the conditions too extreme in deep space, to allow anything living to survive for the period and circumstances required to get to our Earth.
I personally feel that if the conditions here were the only ones suitable for life to emerge, within many light years of distance, then you basically have to start your speculation about the emergence of life with processes here - and within the timeframes that science has identified for our solar system and planet. — Gary Enfield
The opposite could also be argued - That life existed so long is because of the order / stability of the environment.
I guess it depends on how much disorder we are talking about. The Dinosaurs obviously encountered too much, but other organisms were able to cope. — Pop
Yes again, some of the essential amino acids were apparently formed under high pressure and temperature. What I was getting at is that the complex multilayered structure of life - atoms forming molecules, and molecules forming proteins, proteins forming cells, etc requires an ordered state. Such constructions cannot form in chaotic environments, because of their delicacy and complexity. So the first thing necessary for life is order and stability ( long period of order ). In a sense what life evolves out of is this order. — Pop
The universe is evolving, and as a consequence so are all of its component parts, not just the living parts. Even a rock evolves from magma, to rock, to minerals dissolved by water, a solution of mineralized water gets zapped by Stanley Miller to form amino acids, and then a cell shows us how certain amino acids can be combined to form animate matter as cellular proteins. Eventually elements of the rock may evolve to become a neuron, and contribute to a comment in this thread. :smile:
To limit evolution to animate matter suggests a predisposition to a dualistic understanding where life is something separate to the rest of the universe, rather then a monistic understanding of how elements of the universe evolve to life.
In my understanding what comes to life is an element of the universe, not something separate to it. Specifically what comes to life is an ordered pocket of the universe. Life could not arise in chaotic pockets, therefore life is caused by orderly pockets where water is liquid. In such situations atoms can self organize to form molecules, molecules can self organize to form amino acids, amino acids can self organize to form cellular proteins, cellular proteins can self organize to form cells, cells can self organize to form organs, and organs can self organize to form bodies. At each of these layers the interrelational evolution of the micro elements gives rise to a synergistic macro element that is an emergent property. This is roughly the complexity theory perspective. In this understanding, life arises out of, and depends on the order external to the system. — Pop
You made a number of points that some people may find rather weird, but I think you touch on some interesting ideas.... if I try to put the gist of what you said into my language. — Gary Enfield
The nature of consciousness and awareness has not been established by science, and yet we know that they exist in creatures like ourselves - so they are not fantasy. I have also given several examples where single celled creatures without a brain, and individual molecules within cells, can seemingly exhibit properties of logic and awareness.
It may well be that the factor which enables any consciousness can be applied at any level of existence, but with different levels of sophistication.
If so, then your point about interacting energy waves might be one way to explain it. Over time, there would be no reason why the crudest mechanism of interacting energy waves might become more sophisticated and evolve in a separate manner over time. It is one of many possible theories. However you need specific examples to give substance to your ideas if they are to be taken seriously. — Gary Enfield
However, I don't see the point in such a debate unless you want to try to prove the existence of God within interacting energy waves. — Gary Enfield