I might be late to this thread, but i will try to post some real examples.
I had discussed this theory with Pop on other threads and i agree with it.
For me it looks really simple to understand this definition of "information" and looks correct in all aspects, regarding if is material or immaterial.
I will try to emphasize some examples and i hope it wont confuse people more.




I saw that you are insisting at "the brain state" or an observer, but sometimes a brain state is complex and depends on the observer.
Bellow i will present a biological and non biological example.

Why do you think the living cell DNA information is passed from grandfather/father and grandmother/mother to the son/daughter ? Why when a new human child or animal cubs are born some of the information is passed to the offspring ? They could be born offspring without any resemble to his grandfather/father or grandmother/mother, but this is not the case.

The same is for non-living ordered structures like diamonds or when we try to produce steel.
You need to have a big amount of heat/energy to the iron (which is essentially an energy wave that push information into the iron ) to be able to transform it into steel.
If you apply to much heat you will have evaporated iron (so in essence it will go back to the formation of molecules since it lost the previous information data of iron ). If you apply less heat then required, steel is not formed and you just have again only iron.


The Universe encourage and promotes the law, that you can create another ordered form through interactions (between forms) only if it will contain the previous forms history data(aka information).
It will not matter for "the Universe" how you did it, only the end result will matter. If you are able to create another ordered form using the previous form through interaction and information exchange between the forms, it will be more then enough.



The bellow might not reflect directly to the thread subject on the definition of information, but could resolve some doubts.

On previous posts you mention about the Quantum entanglement and the spooky action at the distance.
This is happening because the quantum particles are so small that from your observer point of view the particles can be in any place at the same time.
This is because the very very big difference in size between you as an observer and a simple quantum particle,
The difference in space and time of a sensorial perception by a quantum particle in comparison with the human sensorial, is like the quantum particle lives in another parallel universe where everything happens in nanoseconds or even picoseconds.With this big gap in the perception of time and space of course the particle can be in any place at the same time from the human observer point of view.

The same rules apply to the perception of gravitational waves.
You need to be as big as a planet to be able to sense the gravitational waves.

You will be most of the time wrong if you try to observe the big and the small "universe" with only your human senses of perception and not using some measure instrument.

Sorry i was away with work and tried to concentrate in sports and spending less time near a computer or on a phone. (Now I am working as an IT engineer and i studied Medical Physics at the university).
Looks like they need a couple of real examples in the information definition thread.
I will try to post one or two real examples in that thread and i hope it wont confuse people more.

Yes you are correct.You can say that only an ordered state "can be" and "is" a form. And interactions are possible only between forms.


I agree with your statements about information. :clap:
For me they have good logic, i am not sure if you can describe them in a better logical or simpler way.
Maybe if you compare this logic to some of real life examples ? (this might complicate things or simplify them depending of the person and the examples )
I will read and watch the information thread.

You are describing the forming of energy into more complex forms, that we conceptualize as elementary particles, that form atoms, that form molecules, that form cellular proteins, that form cells, etc. — Pop

Yes i said this, so you wont see matter as something special or something that is required to create Consciousness.
I am glad that we are on the same page :) .

But the quantum world seems random and probabilistic - it has no form - it only has probability. — Pop

I don't believe is random and probabilistic. It has form, but that form last only couple of nanoseconds in our time(other call this quantum entanglement). In quantum world time it can be days or maybe more.
For now we don't have the devices to measure it and see which physics laws are working there.

If you flip a coin and you just look elsewhere when you toss it, it will look for you random and probabilistic.
If you measure the force applied to the toss and using a special device you can try to reproduce the same force on the toss to the coin , then it wont look random anymore :).It will be very difficult to do this by hand only as small variations on the force can produce different results.
The same is happening on quantum world, if something is so small that only my breath can affect the results that i cant measure it, so will look random to me.

You can read this article https://www.quantamagazine.org/black-hole-paradoxes-reveal-a-fundamental-link-between-energy-and-order-20200528/

Yes we are still talking about an energetic particle, but it has been entangled to form. Consciousness has many forms. It is about information processing. Needs to memorize information to a stable form — Pop

Yes i agree with this.
To add just a simple definition, i believe Consciousness = is the information exchange in an ordered state from energy interactions.

Matter is just a stage phase result of those multiple energy interactions.Those energy interactions in depth had a mixture of quantum states to create the matter as we perceive it today with our senses.

Stage 1 - very high energy interactions with very big dimensions like galaxy interactions (this is just the first phase i could imagine after Big bang, lets say this could have created black holes)
Stage 2 - high energy interactions that created the Higgs boson particle and other quantum particles ( energy levels similar to black holes )
Stage 3 - energy interactions from a billion or more quantum particles that created the matter
Stage 4 - matter energy interactions which created consciousness

You can try to change the order if you feel like or maybe add more stages in between .
Hope is more clear now that matter is not the first and not the last step of evolution.
Consciousness that we see now is just the result from those interactions. This result you call it "matter" or mixture of quantum states.

Hello all, seems there is few activity in the last month.
Hope everyone is well.
Here is a web page where human consciousness is linked to quantum physics( energy interactions ) https://www.sciencealert.com/is-consciousness-bound-by-quantum-physics-we-re-getting-closer-to-finding-out

It was just an idea, that i had. Thinking about water that can store "information", why not have another substance that can do the same thing ?




For me is very simple to understand what "information" is.
I am not talking only about biological or some specific area.
Let's say two things (A and B) that interacts and the result of interaction does not destroys A or B.
The result of the interaction that is stored in A or B(or both), i called it "information" .

I will try to explain it with real life examples :

Ex.: 1.If you go to the gym for 30 days and your arm muscle grows. The result of lifting the heave weight against the earth gravitation that is stored on your muscle is called "information" .
2.You reading this post with your eye and remembering some words next day after your away from the computer is "information".
3.Saving a file on your computer hard disk, that you can open next week for review is also "information"

The third example is not biological, as i tried to have at least non biological example.

Any interactions between two energies that does not destroy each other, but still store "marks" of the interactions is called " information" .
If the interactions destroy both energies, then there is no "information" and nothing is stored.
If only one energy is destroyed, then only the energy that remains have the "information" of the interaction.


Of course if you look deep at how those interactions where made and why one energy is destroyed and the other not it will make things much more complex. This is the same for multiple point of views science, physical or biological.
In my opinion to the universe this does not matter, only the end result matters. If you can store is ok, if not you will go back to "the beginnings".

I believe Pop made a good definition of how "information" is preserved to sustain ordered and complex cells or complex material structures(it does not need always to be a living cell).

The reason we age and get older can also have the same reason, as in time we take in too much information.
We might need another chemical structure beside "water" to be able to store more information and live longer.
That will be another complex and interesting discussion.
How much information is more then enough or how much information humans or living cells can take without affecting the current ordered structure ?
You can take "information" by colliding with a car, but that wont be pleasant for us or the living cells inside us.
It would be nice to have medical instruments to measure this for us, to see "the amount of information" we already stored and maybe how much "space" i have left to store the incoming information.Some instruments are already there, but since we dont see it as a hole(as information) we might neglect them.

Yes indeed, you wrote a very great description of the way energies mixed together to preserve information.And the relation with neurobiology.
:clap: :clap:

Also mixing multiple different energies for a lot of time ( thousands of years or more), they can transform and evolve into another type of energy which can keep a lot of more information then today.
You can say that is evolution as well.
Ex. when a very high magnet field produce electric current by itself.Or energies that can evolve and transform into another type of energy just by increasing their frequency.


Taking aside energies and thinking of "the need for sleep" of humans and animals.
Like what is the reason we sleep ? why you need to sleep ?
My answer to the above question is :
So we can keep the information we gather during the day.
So we wont overload with too much information, and destroy our organized cells.
Filing tired is a limit of the information that we can keep for that specific period of time, which then needs to be analyzed and stored by our cells during sleep.

Sorry for the late reply about the "Turing patterns".
I did not post on that topic, because it seems like the topic starter might not want to continue on that topic.

My theory about energy waves is different then that of Turing patterns.
From my point of view everything you : see, hear or touch is energy.
A rock ( something you can touch or an object that has mass) is still just another energy that function on a different wavelength, then the wavelength of sound, light or magnetic.

That's why i think the human cells or any other living cells are just energy interactions + the information that resulted from those interactions.

Thank you for the explanation.
I understood what you meant by "An animated pattern is a process" by itself, but i thought you wanted to add a little more to make it clear for everyone. :up:

The scientific method is always to try and break processes down into their fundamental components, and people have, in their different ways, distinguished between factors that might combine to generate consciousness. I felt that your discussion was weakened by treating consciousness as a single thing.

Finipolscie talks of 3 components - Awareness, Control, and Thought.
I think he settled on these three because they are all scalable, and seem to reflect different properties that could potentially be attempted by mechanical/chemical processes.
Other authors may find different ways to sub-divide consciousness, but ultimately an explanation must be found in the basic processes of nature.... and I don't see you focusing-in on what the necessary base-level requirements might be. — Gary Enfield

Yes we are treating it is a single thing, but with different levels of evolution. Finipolscie consciousness is near human level of complexity or animal level.
That's why i said in one of my posts that we should not confuse it with human level of "consciousness".
I and Pop agreed that a molecule, cell or a small bacteria that can gather by itself information from the nearby environment (or from interactions with other cells) and can evolve into something new has a low level of "consciousness" .If this word might be too confusing, you can maybe try to find a better word for the above sentence ?

f information preservation is fundamental, then everything is integrating information. This is consistent with the modern definition of consciousness ( information integration ). It occurs through self organization. Self organization is caused by external elements. Self organization creates a self, entirely from elements external to self. The only thing that belongs innately to the self is the information it preserves. The information is stored as a pattern of materials. Simply put, the information is the arrangement or pattern of materials. In the case of living things it is an animated pattern of materials. The animation is itself an emergent pattern. Life is an animated pattern. An animated pattern is a process.

Does this make sense? — Pop

Yes it does for me. :up:
The last phrase might be a little confusing "An animated pattern is a process" ? maybe you can say more details about the process.
You will need all the phrases, if you want it explained to someone else.

Can you elaborate on this a little? I can see how all elements of the system must continue to evolve interrelationaly, in order to preserve the system - is this what you mean? This occurs at all levels of the system - each level plays a role in maintaining the whole. Each level solves its own idiomatic problems, this would include buisness and love, but all levels have only one manner of being as a self organizing system in the process of interellational evolution. — Pop

Yes you are correct, that i had in mind.
For example you got simple cells that preserve basic information.After multiple stages of evolution you combine multiple cells into something more complex(an organ or maybe a complex protein).
But each cell from that complex "organ" has the role to preserve its specific part of the information, as a hole the organ role is to preserve the information combined of all the cells.This is the definition how complex information is stored.

So the information of how the system was effected ( how it changed form ) was preserved, unfortunately not all the story that caused its change of form, is preserved in the form. Still the continuity of information is evident, even though we can not decipher it totally. — Pop

Yeap, only the information resulted from the interactions was preserved.The causes can be many, but to the evolution process that does not matter, its focus is only to the end results.

This would mean that the original information that created the system would be preserved in the form of elements of the system somehow. The RNA hypothesis seems pretty strong to me. It did not self replicate, according to Stuart Kauffman, but copied its neighbour RNA, whilst at the same time its neighbour RNA copied it! Its easy to see how out of this relationship DNA could evolve as a double helix of RNA. — Pop

Yes the original information is there.
I think yes you are right about RNA see https://phys.org/news/2021-03-lab-closer-life-earth.html.


There is also a theory called "memory of water" with DNA teleportation sustain by Luc Montagnier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_teleportation

You have two recipients of water: one with water + DNA sample, and second recipient with empty water.
If you put them close(but not real contact) and you spin them using centrifugation, so each sample can emit electromagnetic fields . After some time the electromagnetic result can be replicated into the empty container and after DNA analysis of the empty container, they found DNA is present there as well.
So the conclusion is the DNA from the first container got replicated to the empty container without physical contact, only by electromagnetic fields.


See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8VyUsVOic0 -- this is an interesting documentary, which will explain some things about water memory better then me

I believe that the evolution main purpose is to preserve information, so it can evolve maybe in something better or more complex.It does not matter how you evolve and what caused it(that's why the causes are not stored ), but if you have new information it tries to keep it if it can.
If the interactions can not be stored, then the data is destroyed and most of the times the sources of the interactions are destroyed as well.

Yes, I can see why the information would have to be preserved, and at the same time a closed system would have to move in the direction of greater complexity ( due to the entropic principle outlined earlier ). So the information exchanged becomes more and more complex. Is this process enough then to be captured by evolution and progressed from there to something self sustaining? I suppose, if not, then the process wouldn't survive.

I think what is significant is that it is information that is being exchanged ( as energy or form), and so ultimately it is the exchange of information that must become more complex, and self sustaining? — Pop

Yes looks that to be the main reason for many other interactions things, you can even say the main purpose of the evolution is to preserve the exchange of information.If some cell did not evolved into something more complex, it means it could not preserve the old information anymore.
Hmm thinking more that is the core for business relations and personal relations in humans. You get "in love" if the other person has something that you are "craving for" or some new things about he/she "attracts you".
"Love" actually tricked us into think that is better, then the cells started to release serotonin and adrenaline .. hahaha, maybe i am going too far :).
An article that adds more support to the idea of passing information to newborns: https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-a-new-way-fathers-pass-inheritable-information-to-their-children.

Every why question pertaining to natural phenomena can be answered by self organization ( more or less ). Why does a fish have scales? - self organization. Why does a dinosaur form here and a human there - self organization. Why is the universe just so? - self organization!

What do you think self organization is? — Pop

I think self organization in cells is interaction between : two same cells, two different cells, or a single cell and the environment where the old and the new "information" resulting from the interaction is preserved.
Every interactions that preserve the old and the new resulting "information" , will come together and form a new ordered structure.
When this type of interactions happen you might even call it a stage of the evolution process.

In my opinion the Universe gives priority on interactions (of any kind) that preserve the old information.And to interactions that destroys "the old information", it makes them start back from basics.

Thanks for this, I was not aware. So if we change either the energy or the information, then a different pattern results. It is still matter - as different waves of energy propagating over something material / or a field. And ultimately everything is really just patterns of energy - pattern upon pattern in a space that is a pattern. Patterns of energy interacting with each other and perhaps changing their information in the process - could this be a fundamental information exchange?

If so then it is"discrete patterns of interacting energy exchanging information" that would have to self organize, as this is what happens in pockets of the universe that are not chaotic. — Pop

Yes this is my understanding after reading multiple articles, it is not something that is presented in a science document.Maybe others in this thread might not agree or think otherwise.

I am trying to understand consciousness. I think I have a pretty good understanding in terms of phenomenology psychology, and belief systems, and now am trying to understand how it fits into the big picture / how it creates the big picture. — Pop

In my opinion, what you want is somehow related to finding the purpose of life.Which is a hard subject and might need another topic open.

I think is "natural universe" the reason "why" the cells are trying to form something new.
When you have two very big environment that are very "messy" and you collide them.The zillions of particles and the energies you gather, then the better the chance to form something new.
Since the environments are very messy, they dont have a limit : there is no time limit or a space limit.Only the stages of ordered cells have a time and energy limits, everything else does not.
Because of so many energy interactions and no limits, messy energies and particles can always form something new.
"Why" they work like this, for now i dont think there is a logical reason for it.
Is like asking why some "living cells" evolve into dinosaurs or why "living cells" evolve into birds, dogs or humans ?

If we can imagine various amino acids trapped in a membrane, where they have to self organize, and there is a predetermined direction of self organization towards greater complexity, then this provides a model of how cellular proteins might have evolved initially. It is a viable explanation and answers how life might have arisen, but when asked why did this occur? physics can only provide another how explanation. It can not answer why! Physics answers how, not why. The why, however, can be answered by saying that this is how the universe has self organized. — Pop

I am not sure what you want to find. You want to know the purpose of life ?

The relationship of energy and information = matter, from E=mc2. From this view matter is an emergent property that arises from the relationship of energy and information. — Pop

I will not called it matter.I know that is the formula for matter at is defined by Einstein.
But lets called it another type of higher frequency energy instead of matter.
So then "The relationship of energy and information = another state of higher(or different) energy" .Is not necessary that the result to be a higher energy, it can result in a different energy type (lower or higher).
Is the same principle when using a beam of light, if you amplify it and excite the electrons ( you add information) it becomes laser.
The same principle applies to cells when they evolve into something new, just with other types of energy levels.

I'm glad that you acknowledge self organization in amino acids. This is the foundation of life - where inanimate matter becomes animated. If we then jump from the beginnings of life to its ultimate achievement - human consciousness, I think you will agree that it arises from self organization, for the purpose of self organization. Also all the layers of the system in between are self organizing, as are their component parts - amino acids self organize to form proteins, the self organization of proteins forms cells, the self organization of cells forms organs, etc., etc. When an organ is transplanted, the donor organ is not reconnected to the nervous system, as that is not currently possible. The organ carries on working regardless - it knows what to do as it is self organizing. Systems like the immune system are entirely self organizing. Components like a white blood cell work independently - untethered to a system of control. The entire system as a whole, as well as all of its component parts are self organizing!

How can self organization occur without consciousness? I don't think it can. — Pop

Thank you for the ideas, i agree with the above words you said.
Using your words i prefer to give a more simple definition to human "consciousness" .
The human "consciousness" is an ordered organization of "living cells" from the result of multiple stages of evolution of multiple complex cells.

As you said before bacteria also has "consciousness", but you can not compare it to humans.
Bacteria "consciousness" is a lower or under-evolve evolution stage of complex cells.
A small reptile also has "consciousness", a dog too has one , but is lower or maybe not lower just different evolution of the "living cells" apart from the evolution of humans cells.This is the reason i prefer not to use the word "consciousness", as we might try to compare with human "consciousness" levels which is not right and correct in this contexts.

Reading some science news on internet i saw today an interesting article, which i believe you want to read.
It specify the formation of phosphorus from lighting bolts on soil clay.
https://www.sciencealert.com/lightning-bolts-could-have-delivered-a-key-ingredient-to-start-life-on-earth
That might support my idea that the living and complex cells are at base multiple waves of energy or maybe not ? :)

— hypericin

I think we like or dislike music because we were made this way.
A high percentage of water in our body is high and when we are children even higher.
Water is known to propagate sounds and vibrations to great distances, because of this we "feel" sounds and vibrations.

Life was made millions years ago by explosions of stars, planets and collisions with meteorites, asteroids etc .... collisions produce sound waves and vibrations which where "felt and stored" into water .. so practically humans were made by sound waves and vibrations with water and a mix of chemical elements.

There was a documentary experiment where they put 2-3 years old children to listen to music.Because of high water percentage that is present in children, their sensitivity increase .
They started to move and to dance out of nowhere, without being told to do so.
For them the music vibrations is like someone is doing little electric shocks and they need to move :).

I would also say that the problem in expanding your 'evolutionary test bed' to the whole of the universe is that the distances are too great, and the conditions too extreme in deep space, to allow anything living to survive for the period and circumstances required to get to our Earth.

I personally feel that if the conditions here were the only ones suitable for life to emerge, within many light years of distance, then you basically have to start your speculation about the emergence of life with processes here - and within the timeframes that science has identified for our solar system and planet. — Gary Enfield

Yes i also did not insist on that. Outside solar system will overcomplicate things, but i wanted to at least say the possibility of interactions with other solar systems.

If we stick only to planet Earth and our solar system, do you think we can say that the evolution of an early planet Earth into a planet that sustains live has a very strong similarity with the evolution of a "mix of chemicals" into a "living cell" ?
Almost the same undergoing processes that transformed Earth, the same were applied to a "mix of chemicals" to "forge" a "living cell" but at a lower scale and maybe frequency too.We can say the transformation for a "living cell" might be fewer then the ones that occur on Earth.
Since all happen in the same place i think the theory has a good logic.

Using the above theory the first cell had no order or stability(i like to call it empty cell or chaotic cell :smile: ) , but after multiple interactions and undergoing processes it became a "living cell".
The same way our planet that at first was chaotic and volcanic, after many transformations process it became the Earth of today.
https://www.livescience.com/64970-early-earth-spin-magma-ocean.html

That is one of the reasons why is very hard to create a living cell from zero or from a "mix of chemicals" in a laboratory .We can maybe create a stage or multiple stages of transformation in a laboratory, but not the whole process of formation or the entire stages that led to a "living cell".

The opposite could also be argued - That life existed so long is because of the order / stability of the environment.
I guess it depends on how much disorder we are talking about. The Dinosaurs obviously encountered too much, but other organisms were able to cope. — Pop

Well yes you can argue and say the opposite, that because of a stable environment the life emerged to what you see today.
But from what we know about our solar system formation process or the geological history of the Earth.
It does not look like early Earth was a stable environment for life formation or that our solar system provided such a good order and stable conditions to create a "living cell".

I' m inclined to think that "the order" and the "life cells" you see today are a process of evolution, (the end result ) and are not something that emerge on Earth because we had from start a "friendly", ordered and stable planet.

Yes again, some of the essential amino acids were apparently formed under high pressure and temperature. What I was getting at is that the complex multilayered structure of life - atoms forming molecules, and molecules forming proteins, proteins forming cells, etc requires an ordered state. Such constructions cannot form in chaotic environments, because of their delicacy and complexity. So the first thing necessary for life is order and stability ( long period of order ). In a sense what life evolves out of is this order. — Pop

Yes you are correct about the end result, as i said in my previous reply the end result have a good order state and balance.
But the long process and time that was required to reach this "order state", that you see now in a "living cell" was chaotic.
If it was "a long period of order" as you said, then most likely our evolution will progress much much faster.

Dont you think that every process that requires a lot of time to finish(millions years) or has a small chance to even exist is because of the chaos and disorder around it ?
I kind of fail to see how "a long period of order" evolution progress is slow, unless it had a heck a lot of chaotic and disorder events.

The universe is evolving, and as a consequence so are all of its component parts, not just the living parts. Even a rock evolves from magma, to rock, to minerals dissolved by water, a solution of mineralized water gets zapped by Stanley Miller to form amino acids, and then a cell shows us how certain amino acids can be combined to form animate matter as cellular proteins. Eventually elements of the rock may evolve to become a neuron, and contribute to a comment in this thread. :smile:

To limit evolution to animate matter suggests a predisposition to a dualistic understanding where life is something separate to the rest of the universe, rather then a monistic understanding of how elements of the universe evolve to life.

In my understanding what comes to life is an element of the universe, not something separate to it. Specifically what comes to life is an ordered pocket of the universe. Life could not arise in chaotic pockets, therefore life is caused by orderly pockets where water is liquid. In such situations atoms can self organize to form molecules, molecules can self organize to form amino acids, amino acids can self organize to form cellular proteins, cellular proteins can self organize to form cells, cells can self organize to form organs, and organs can self organize to form bodies. At each of these layers the interrelational evolution of the micro elements gives rise to a synergistic macro element that is an emergent property. This is roughly the complexity theory perspective. In this understanding, life arises out of, and depends on the order external to the system. — Pop

Hello Pop,

I think almost the same as you, the element of life can be a rock or a metal.As we see now water looks like a good structure to form life cells.
Though in the universe might be elements more stronger and better then water in forming life.


But the process of forming the "life cell" was not ordered at all.In my opinion the process was made using a lot of failed and chaotic results ( the results of thousands, millions or maybe more attempts).The end result looks ordered to us only because we try to compare it using mathematical or physics formulas. Our human being needs this type of "order" to be able to understand the surroundings where we live and stay.
If I or you were to be born in a small village in Africa, where i know only to hunt using spears or arrows and sleep in a tent.Then my "order of life" would have been my spear and my arrow.


To compare the start of forming the "life cell" as the start when the Earth planet was born is also not so correct.
Is not ok to say even with the start of our solar system.
This is because our galaxy is always moving and it has high chances to interact with other galaxies and to bring debris into our solar system from galaxies or other Milky-way solar systems that where born millions or more years long before our solar system.
If i had to estimate the chances of forming a single "life cell" is something similar with "Rutherford's experiment" .
In the experiment, Rutherford proved the existence of nucleus in atoms.
To be able to do this he blasted gold foils with billions of particles, and a alpha particle had one chance in a hundred million of hitting the nucleus.

If you have a very small chance to form a "life cell", then the process can not be ordered.And i think this is true with every process that transforms or creates something new, very small chances = high disorder.

Yes i was referring to "consciousness" .I edit my post to reflect this word.

I agree that i deviated from "water". I like water, but is only my opinion based on what i read.
Though your topic is about living cell and i did not want to talk only about water.
I think water it is a key or primordial element in forming life only because it can store data/information in it.
Water is also sensible to multiple waves of energy, this meaning it can interact with them(and store that energy waves interaction in it).A metal or a rock cant do that. Crystals have some high energy interaction properties, but is still not like water.

You made a number of points that some people may find rather weird, but I think you touch on some interesting ideas.... if I try to put the gist of what you said into my language. — Gary Enfield

If something of my ideas was not clear i will try to explain again and with examples from real world(when possible.)

The nature of consciousness and awareness has not been established by science, and yet we know that they exist in creatures like ourselves - so they are not fantasy. I have also given several examples where single celled creatures without a brain, and individual molecules within cells, can seemingly exhibit properties of logic and awareness.

It may well be that the factor which enables any consciousness can be applied at any level of existence, but with different levels of sophistication.

If so, then your point about interacting energy waves might be one way to explain it. Over time, there would be no reason why the crudest mechanism of interacting energy waves might become more sophisticated and evolve in a separate manner over time. It is one of many possible theories. However you need specific examples to give substance to your ideas if they are to be taken seriously. — Gary Enfield

I agree with you the above statement, so a big yes from my part :).
I know i need examples, for me is easy to understand that if chemical elements are made by molecules and atoms.
Atoms are made by electrons, protons and neutrons, which "in turn" are waves of energy.
So as a conclusion all we see and feel are waves of energy.

To be able to demonstrate with examples might be a little hard, for some complex things i need to do a lot of waves interactions.
I can give you a simplistic example of waves interactions that result in a object with different physical properties because of these wave interactions.
Ex. When Iron is found on earth using mining it has a type of physical properties.When you apply heat/fire to it or energy wave interactions, it transforms in "steel" with different physical properties.
The same work of process happened on "cells" or forming of "life cells" with higher "consciousness" using wave energy interactions.
Of course these energy interactions frequencies are much lower in living cells. then the ones that are required to made steel .But are still there and are required for evolution.

However, I don't see the point in such a debate unless you want to try to prove the existence of God within interacting energy waves. — Gary Enfield

I dont want to debate on existence of God, i am actually an atheist who believes only in what the universe provide.

I think the above is the main way how "life cells" formed using wave energy interactions when they reached the state of proteins or more complex cells.The wave interaction process is currently ongoing and exists in the present time.

Hi Gary,

I see that you prefer to view water as a chemical/catalyst enabler.I am more interested in the properties of the chemical element or any other element that had a principal or key role in forming life.
If you go that route, then we can go deeper and say that water and other chemical elements that formed life are made of molecules and atoms.
Each atoms is made by electrons, protons, neutrons etc ... as a conclusion the chemical elements are wave of energy.
Material in my opinion does not exist (is virtual).We call something material if we can touch, feel or see(or maybe matched by a physics formula), but that is not correct.All the five human senses are basically sensors of energy on specific wave length, and also those sensors are made of energy.
You can say the human/animal cells or plants cells are "radars" tuned to specific wave of energy lengths, that work simultaneous only for that specific energy lengths.
These sensors together formed animal or plant "consciousness", which develop in time with evolution after more info and data was gathered by those sensors.

Life cell was not a process that developed in one go, it needed time with a lot of data "pour into" ( evolution).Because of this is very hard, almost impossible to create a "living cell" from zero in a lab. As in one go you can create only a dead cell(with no data/information in it ).
Aliens or other non-earth creatures did not create and did not start the forming of " living cells", the universe and the evolution did it.


Some older posts in these forum of Wayfarer said living cells had consciousness at first, i kind of disagree with that.
Bacteria and viruses are practically wave of energy tuned to specific wave lengths, with no conscience.
They know only one or two things.
In the way bacteria works is like an electric current that can pass trough a wire.
If the wire is cut or it has some isolator in between, the current stops or dies .The similar is with the bacteria as well, if is in water or a good environment with chemical elements they work.
If the environment is broken they die.
The difference is the electric current works at a length of energy and the bacteria has other length(on some bacteria it can be two lengths of energy or more).

Regarding the formation of the "living cell", I think is best to start from things we know and one important key fact is that human body is made by 60% water for adult male and 55% water for adult female.
Kids have ~ 75% water in their body when they are born.
So i strongly believe water had a crucial role in forming the "living cell".
Water has some strange properties, that not even today are fully understood.

One key thing is that water has memory, meaning it can keep a lot of information in it.
Ex.: Think of it as water is an 100000 TerraBytes hard drive that can store a lot of data and information, even more(the above terrabytes was just a sample as i don't know exactly how much data you can store in it, it could be trillions of terrabytes ??? ).
Because of this water property of "storing information", if you throw a small rock(a pebble) into a lake or a river .That water surface can remember almost forever that a "specific small stone" had fall in it.
It can also sense vibrations or sounds and store it as an information, so an erupting volcano, earthquakes or meteor crashes can be stored in water.
Sound, music and vibrations had also a vital role in forming the "living cell".
Dont think of it as only water with mixed chemical elements, vibrations and sounds are important.
Of course if the water has evaporated that information is mostly gone.

Now If you add all the millions years since the Earth has formed and all the meteors, asteroids that hit it.
All that information was stored in our rivers, lake and oceans.

So to summary this the "Living Cell" is made by water with a lot of mixed information in it from : chemical elements, vibrations and sounds from asteroid collisions.


One type of "cell" was used for evolution of vegetation(trees,grass, plants) and the second type "living cell" for evolution of fish.Then from fish surfaced from water in time: the reptiles, the dinosaurs and finally the animals.
This is only my theory, it will be hard to back it all by science.
I really like to see your opinions on this, or maybe to see other theories that i did not think of and could have a little logic as well.