Okay, so let me try asking a different way. How does healthy people factor into protecting vulnerable people in your model? — Roger Gregoire

So how do these people factor in achieving herd immunity in your program/model? — Roger Gregoire

Can you show the math equation (similar to what I did) to see to how you account for these healthy people? — Roger Gregoire

enum State { Uninfected, Infected, Immune, Dead };
struct Person { bool vulnerable; State state; unsigned x, y; vector<Person*> neighbors; };
void evolve()   {
   set<Person*> died;
   set<Person*> immunized;
   set<Person*> infected;
   for (auto& p : people) {
      if (p.state == Infected) {
         if (p.vulnerable) {
            died.insert(&p);
         } else {
            immunized.insert(&p); }
         for (auto &neighbor : p.neighbors)
            if (neighbor->state==Uninfected) {
               infected.insert(neighbor); } } }
   for (auto &p : died) p->state = Dead;
   for (auto &p : immunized) p->state = Immune;
   for (auto &p : infected) p->state = Infected;
}

In the model implemented by the program, everyone in an infected environment always gets infected. And immune people never clean the environment. And still, there's a protective effect. — InPitzotl

our well intentioned public officials. — Roger Gregoire

...our well intentioned public officials. — Roger Gregoire

Are they though? I mean, really? Am I still considered to be well intentioned if I make a mistake and then cling to that mistake, insisting on repeating it over and over again, rather than admit that it was a shit call in the first place? That sound like a gambling addiction...."it will work this time and then I will win it all back and more....Hey lend me more money, because THIS time it is really gonna happen..."

Ardent denial is difficult to confuse with well intention. — Book273

But yet, according to your program, and your belief, healthy people are not really "necessary". They just need to "stay out of the way and not get infected", right? — Roger Gregoire

Where exactly is the the protective effect if everyone always gets infected? — Book273

But yet, according to your program, and your belief, healthy people are not really "necessary". They just need to "stay out of the way and not get infected", right? — Roger Gregoire

They [healthy people] are not necessary to have a protective effect. — InPitzotl

Also, you're failing to grasp the significance of what "according to [my] program" actually means. Programs aren't agents. My program isn't opining anything; it's implementing something. — InPitzotl

Not only does this contradict basic math and logic — Roger Gregoire

Without healthy people mixing in with vulnerable people there can be no protective effect whatsoever. — Roger Gregoire

If so, then it is based on your view; your opinion; your interpretation of how herd immunity works. — Roger Gregoire

It is an expression of your opinion, ...which, in my opinion, doesn't accurately match how herd immunity or how the protective effect truly works. — Roger Gregoire

Without healthy people mixing in with vulnerable people there can be no protective effect whatsoever. — Roger Gregoire

This is a contradiction. — InPitzotl

Might I remind you, you are against healthy people social distancing because you want them to get infected. — InPitzotl

That implies you don't think they'll get infected if they do. — InPitzotl

It's not just me saying this, but virtually all medical experts, scientists, and health agencies (e.g. CDC, etc) also say this. Why you believe otherwise, is baffling. — Roger Gregoire

Herd immunity: See Community immunity. — CDC Glossary

Community immunity: A situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community. Also known as herd immunity. — CDC Glossary

To the contrary. Remember: nothing happens to healthy immune people when they get infected — Roger Gregoire

InPitzotl, I think we are at a stand-still. Neither of us are budging from our positions, so I think it is time to say "we agree to disagree". — Roger Gregoire

But one last request before we depart. How about we make a deal? — Roger Gregoire

So... according to the CDC, herd immunity is simply about making the spread of an infectious disease from person to person unlikely due to a sufficient proportion of a population being immune. — InPitzotl

That sounds like what I'm saying. — InPitzotl

You make it sound like observing the effects of social distancing has never been done before. Not only have we been doing this since the 19th century... — InPitzotl

Your theory is just the opposite. Your theory is based on creating an insufficient proportion! — Roger Gregoire

You falsely think that if you move all healthy immune people AWAY from vulnerable, that somehow this gives more protection to the vulnerable. — Roger Gregoire

To create herd immunity, you need to move healthy people into a vulnerable population, not away from it! — Roger Gregoire

If social distancing of our healthy population is such a good thing, then why is it not working? — Roger Gregoire

Next year, if we continue this foolishness — Roger Gregoire

Isn't that the definition of insanity? ...keep doing the same thing and expect a different result? — Roger Gregoire

The reason herd immunity works is because it distributes a significant portion of the viral load — Roger Gregoire

...your theory seems to assume that the vast majority of viruses in an environment find themselves inside human bodies in 7 days. I question that assumption. — InPitzotl

...an irrelevant red herring. — Roger Gregoire

it distributes a significant portion of the viral load to the healthy immune (who don't die) — Roger Gregoire

If you are trying to falsely represent the virus as grains of sand, or molecules of water relative to two people (Joe and John), then the virus greatly outnumbers the people. Once we are outnumbered, the party is over. — Roger Gregoire

Astronomy is a field that is used to dealing with large numbers, but these can be dwarfed when compared with life on the microbial scale. For instance, if all the 1 × 10³¹ viruses on earth were laid end to end, they would stretch for 100 million light years. Furthermore, there are 100 million times as many bacteria in the oceans (13 × 10²⁸) as there are stars in the known universe. The rate of viral infection in the oceans stands at 1 × 10²³ infections per second, and these infections remove 20–40% of all bacterial cells each day. Moving onto dry land, the number of microorganisms in a teaspoon of soil (1 × 10⁹) is the same as the number of humans currently living in Africa. Even more amazingly, dental plaque is so densely packed that a gram will contain approximately 1 × 10¹¹ bacteria, roughly the same number of humans that have ever lived. Not quite so densely packed but impressive all the same, the bacteria present in the average human gut weigh about 1 kilogram, and a human adult will excrete their own weight in faecal bacteria each year. The number of genes contained within this gut flora outnumbers that contained within our own genome 150-fold, and even in our genome, 8% of the DNA is derived from remnants of viral genomes.

Now I'm not arguing that there are 1031 coronoviruses; that would be silly. But you seem to severely misaprehend how tiny and numerous these things are. — InPitzotl

I'm glad you were honest enough to end with this paragraph and not continue to falsely equate all the viruses in mankind with this one virus that we call covid-19. — Roger Gregoire

Herd immunity has been natures way of protecting mankind from all these viruses throughout history. — Roger Gregoire

We are intentionally shielding our healthy population from protecting our vulnerable population. — Roger Gregoire

Never in the history of mankind have we did this, and is why we are losing this battle with covid.

For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. — Roger Gregoire

InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No? — Roger Gregoire

For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No? — Roger Gregoire

You seem to be suggesting by an argument from common sense an absurdity. I could argue that there's virtually no milk in my fridge, because thousands of people drink milk, depriving me of milk, by the logic of this argument. It's kind of ridiculous. Do you grasp how ridiculous this is? — InPitzotl

Firstly, you seem to be fabricating a delusional interpretation of my words. — Roger Gregoire

And secondly, this is not necessarily ridiculous — Roger Gregoire

...your theory seems to assume that the vast majority of viruses in an environment find themselves inside human bodies in 7 days. I question that assumption. — InPitzotl

...an irrelevant red herring. — Roger Gregoire

And secondly, this is not necessarily ridiculous (i.e. thousands of people drinking milk could cause a milk shortage, thereby resulting in no milk in your fridge). — Roger Gregoire

Assuming Joe, John and the pie are all together in the same environment (e.g. John's kitchen). -- For every slice of the pie that Joe eats, means that there is one less slice that John can eat. — Roger Gregoire

For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No? — Roger Gregoire

You seem to be suggesting by an argument from common sense an absurdity. I could argue that there's virtually no milk in my fridge, because thousands of people drink milk, depriving me of milk, by the logic of this argument. It's kind of ridiculous. Do you grasp how ridiculous this is? — InPitzotl

...you seem to be fabricating a delusional interpretation of my words. — Roger Gregoire

Nope. It's a pretty direct interpretation of your words. — InPitzotl