• Bartricks
    6k
    By 'God' I mean a person who is all-powerful (omnipotent), all-knowing (omniscient) and all-good (omnibenevolent). I take it that possession of those properties is sufficient to make one God. I do not want to debate this, it is just to tell you what I mean by 'God'.

    I, in common with Jesus and Descartes and others, would understand being 'all-powerful' essentially to involve being able to do anything. In fact, I think it's the other way around - God is described as 'all-powerful' as an attempt to express the idea that God can do anything.

    But interestingly most contemporary philosophers of religion understand omnipotence differently. They interpret omnipotence to involve being able to do all that it is logically possible for one to do (actually, they normally qualify it a bit further to avoid certain problems).

    This strikes me as most odd, indeed rather absurd - it really isn't an undestanding of 'omnipotence' at all, but an attempt to redefine the term so that it no longer refers to being all-powerful. For surely it is self-evident that a being who is restricted by what logic says is possible is a being who has less power than one who is not? That seems undeniable.

    For a being who is restricted by logic cannot make a square circle, whereas one who is not can. So the one who can has more power than the one who can't, right?

    Consider too that a being who is restricted by logic cannot reason fallaciously. Yet that's something all of us can do (and do do, regularly). A being restricted by logic will be compelled, in his thinking, to draw a particular conclusion from a certain set of premises, whereas I am free to draw any old conclusion I want. Well, even though that being reasons very well, I now have powers that this being does not have. Which is absurd if that being is also being touted as all powerful.

    One might object that the power to reason fallaciously is not a power worth having. Perhaps, but that's beside the point: we're not talking about the 'value' of various powers, just the quantity of them one possesses. So someone who makes this objection is trying subtly (or not so subtly) to change the topic.

    Why, then, do so many contemporary theists maintain and promote this patently confused understanding of omnipotence? (which is really not an understanding of omnipotence at all, but an attempt at replacing it with something else).

    I think there are two reasons, both of them bad. The first is that many seem to think that certain proofs of God's existence - in particular, ontological and cosmological arguments - imply the existence of a necessary existent. This is a bad reason, because a) even if they did, that would just mean they refute God rather than prove him - re-labelling what you've proved 'God' will not help; and b) they don't.

    The second bad reason is that it is thought that there is something absurd in the idea of a being who is able to make married unmarried men and square circles. Or perhaps, it is thought that these things, being logically impossible, are not abilities at all.

    This is a bad reason, however, because it is flagrantly question begging. That is, it just supposes that logic - and not God - determines what is truly possible. Yet the whole point is that if God is all powerful then, by virtue of being all powerful, it would be God - not logic - that determines what's truly possible.

    So anyway, I think most contemporary theists are seriously - seriously - confused and that an omnipotent being can do anything at all, and that there are no problems with this idea. Indeed, it just 'is' the idea of a truly omnipotent being and anyone who tries to redefine omnipotence in ways that place restrictions on God is simply replacing God with someone who is unable to do a range of things.
  • Wayfarer
    22.7k
    But interestingly most contemporary philosophers of religion understand omnipotence differently. They interpret omnipotence to involve being able to do all that it is logically possible for one to do (actually, they normally qualify it a bit further to avoid certain problems).Bartricks

    That was what mainstream scholastic theology argued. It was called ‘intellectualism’. The position you’re arguing from is that of ‘voluntarism’ which emphasizes the power and inscrutability of the divine will. And, if you advocate the latter, then there’s little point arguing for it on a philosophy forum, if you think it through.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    You've just told me about some labels and then told me, on the basis of no argument whatsoever, that there is no point in arguing for the view I argued for. How silly. I argued for it, didn't you see?
  • counterpunch
    1.6k
    An omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent being cannot do anything; which is to say they could not do anything at all - because they would understand the long term implications of their actions. Any intervention would necessarily imply further interventions, to account for the consequences of the first, and so on and on until they had to do everything.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    That seems clearly false. An omnipotent being can do anything. That doesn't mean they do everything. They do what they do. Their omnipotence consists of the fact that they have the ability to do anything at all.
    I do not understand your point about long term implications. For by hypothesis, they have the power to determine what implications their actions have.
  • Gus Lamarch
    924
    Any sane mind today will realize that theistic views - even more theistic views on monotheism - where God, even though, Unique and Eternal, may not be Omnipotent, is purely the symptoms of a nihilistic and decadent society, where even the respect for the figure of the West's highest authority can be disagreed.

    They don't know what they say, because they don't know why they say it...
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I am not sure what you're saying.
  • Gus Lamarch
    924
    I am not sure what you're saying.Bartricks

    People are ignorant and free, because they're free, and ignorant. That's why they make statements like:

    "God can be not Omnipotent, while being God"

    In resume...
  • counterpunch
    1.6k
    The point is not omnipotence. But the sum of omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence. If an omnipotent and omniscient being were not benevolent - it could do anything, because it wouldn't need to care about the consequences of its actions. But any good thing one does, is bound to have undesirable ramifications at some remove. Far beyond the scope of humans, but the almighty would know if he saves a girl's life, for example, she has a kid, who has a kid, who has a kid, who grows up to be Hitler or something. The chain of cause and effect is bound to run into trouble eventually, so he cannot intervene - or would be responsible for all that follows from that intervention, and cannot because he's omnibenevolent.
  • Present awareness
    128
    An imaginary God will naturally be able to do imaginary things. Truly, there is nothing that an imaginary God could not do, since there are no limits to the imagination!
    Some imagine God in there own image, whereas other will see God as a force of nature, like gravity.
    It does not really matter what one believes, since it will not change the reality of what truly IS.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Not sure I see the point yet. To be able to do anything, God would have to be able to determine the content - and indeed, existence - of morality. If he could not do this, then he would lack a power.

    So, what 'being morally perfect' involves is determined by God. As we can see just by reflecting on what it means to be omnipotent. As such nothing stops God from being omnipotent and morally perfect, for God's omnipotence means he himself determines whether or not he is morally perfect.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    You're just expressing your disbelief in God. That's fine, but irrelevant. What I am doing is exploring what it means to be all powerful. If one wants, one can bracket the issue of whether such a being actually exists (they do, of course, even if you imagine they don't). (Also, there 'do' seem to be limits to what we, at least, can imagine; can you imagine a square circle?)
  • Gus Lamarch
    924
    What I am doing is exploring what it means to be all powerful.Bartricks

    "The One" of Plotinus is your God then... The problem is not Omnipotence, but if it can be limited... and here, I'll quote Plotinus himself:

    "Once you have uttered 'The One' add no further thought: by any addition, and in proportion to that addition, you introduce a deficiency."
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I don't see that at all. Being all powerful means being able to do anything. How does talking about what such a being has actually done or is doing or whatever, 'introduce a deficiency'?
  • Gus Lamarch
    924
    I don't see that at all. Being all powerful means being able to do anything. How does talking about what such a being has actually done or is doing or whatever, 'introduce a deficiency'?Bartricks

    Plotinus talks about the human perception and conception of concepts. If we try to perceive the absolute, it will be, by rule, not the most absolute of all. So:

    If God is All-Powerful and wills itself to become existent, then it Is while Being;
    If God is All-Powerful and we will it to exist, then it is not God but something else.
  • Daniel
    460


    Could an omnipotent being do something that is both logical and illogical?
  • counterpunch
    1.6k


    what 'being morally perfect' involves is determined by God.Bartricks

    If God could simply redefine what good is, to construe anything he chose to do as good, then benevolence has no meaning. God could rape, torture, kill and maim - and just say, it's all good. How can that be a good God? Having established a moral order, a good God has to live within it - and then he's snookered behind the 8- ball of knowing all the long term implications of anything he chose to do.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yes. That's a contradiction of course. But he can do those.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    On the contrary, it tells us what goodness is - it is something like 'having a quality that God values you having" or some such.

    Note, when we say 'torture is bad' we do not mean that torture is torture. We mean that torture has the property of badness. What, then, is that property? We can't just say 'torture!' for once more that is to reduce one's judgement that torture is bad to the empty judgement that torture is torture. We must, then, be saying more than 'torture is torture' or 'rape is rape' when we judge them bad.

    The property in question, then, is the property of being a way of behaving that God does not value us engaging in. God clearly disapproves of us behaving in those ways and nothing I've said suggests otherwise. (And maybe he always has and always will - again, all entirely consistent with what I've argued).

    Incidentally, it would be metaphysically possible for, say, torture to be morally good regardless of who or what determines the content of morality. Make the source of morality a platonic form, or make it human conventions, or whatever....it still remains possible, for what stops a Platonic form from overnight valuing torture, or what stops human convention changing so that torture becomes valued? Nothing.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I was trying to think of an example of something logical and illogical, just for the purposes of illustration. Given God can do anything, God can make a square circle. That's illogical - if something is square it is not also circular. But God uses himself to make one. That's logical, given he's the only person who can do everything.
  • Daniel
    460


    So, an omnipotent being could be not-omnipotent (at the same time). Right?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yes, that's really no harder than making a square circle or a married unmarried man, so I am sure he can make himself both of those.
  • Daniel
    460


    How do you know an omnipotent being is omnipotent when it could be not-omnipotent?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Because he's being omnipotent at the same time. Only an omnipotent being can be omnipotent 'and' not-omnipotent at the same time. So if I encounter a being who's managed to make himself both omnipotent and not omnipotent at the same time, I know I'm dealing with God.

    But even if I could never know such things, the important thing is that God can know them - he knows everything.

    I should also add, of course, that God is not in fact omnipotent and not-omnipotent. He's just omnipotent.
  • Daniel
    460


    At any time, an omnipotent being could decide to be omnipotent, not-omnipotent, or both. God is an omnipotent being (your argument). How do you know it is omnipotent when god could be either of the three things above?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    These are epistemic questions that don't directly bear on the issue at hand.

    But I can know that an omnipotent being exists by means of ratiocination. There is at least one argument that establishes the existence of such a being. And by understanding that argument, I can know of such a being's existence.

    And as omnipotence involves being able to do anything, I know that this omnipotent being is capable of being omnipotent and not-omnipotent at the same time. But the argument establishes the existence of an omnipotent being, not a being who is actually omnipotent and not-omnipotent at the same time. So, whether he's exercising that ability or not, is not something I know how to know. But, like I say, I don't think that's relevant.
  • DingoJones
    2.8k


    Omnipotence, defined as being able to do anything, is a non-sensical term that has no real meaning. It is a paradoxical term, its own definition refutes it by showing a clear, inevitable contradiction. You are welcome to ignore logic but once you do that I don’t know what you are talking about anymore, and neither do you.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Just a bunch of assertions. I am not ignoring logic, but using it. See above.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    No, God can't do anything.

    Because to do is to be.

    And God don't be.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Do you think there's reason to think that, or no reason to think it, but you think it anyway?
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I haven't actually read this thread, I'm just making a joke.

    In case you missed it, the joke is in misreading "can God do anything?" as:

    "is it the case that there is some x such that God can do x?"
    (like "jeez, can't this God guy do anything at all?")

    rather than the obviously intended

    "is it the case that for all x, God can do x?"
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