China at 93%? — ChatteringMonkey

Yes it is true this is hard to believe this is why I didn’t want mention Asian countries because tend to overrate everything.

I've been to Spain multiple times, and didn't have the impression that people were fundamentally more unhappy. Spain has been through a rough patch lately to be sure, with lots of unemployment and lack of perspective in general, but these numbers seem exaggerated. — ChatteringMonkey

Truste me they are not. You have a perspective of us because you visited my country multiple times but remember just for tourism. It is important to emphasise that touristic countries tend to make an unrealistic mask just to attract a lot of people (Spain does it) I don’t know which territories you visited but I guess the common ones as Andalucía or another Mediterranean beach. Well yes they are happy more they have to because we are in a mess. I don’t even understand my own compatriots but it seems very legit the 38 %.
I was buying some stuff in a market and a random dude asked us: “do you have some coins?” And then some woman replied “I wish I could give you some coins but I earn 400 € at month”
This made me feel sad my own country man...

Maybe the question of meaning is hitting Spain especially hard now because it is traditional more Catholic than the rest of Europe and late to the secular party? And so it hasn't had the time to deal with this question of meaning for a secular point of view? — ChatteringMonkey

Well it is not as Catholic as looks like. XIX Spain was so secular. But Franco wining the civil war put another history in the books...

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something. — synthesis

Yes because somehow this motivates us. Nevertheless it looks like some citizens of some countries have a solid path in the meaningful life not like others (we do not count China because yes it is flawed).

There may be "inherent meaning" in the real but it's not knowable by human beings (Zapffe, Camus, Rosset et al). If it were, like mathematics or fundamental physics, there'd have been for millennia far fewer, if any, 'metaphysical conflicts' ... :fire:

Well, I think that's false. I think we can know this inherent meaning, Dao, Logos, Dharma and I think we can live our lives in accord with it. If we do not, we end up in a lunatic jungle, zoo, circus society like this one. If we do, then we have security, stability and a golden age.

Moreover, everyone in history until Modernity believed there was this meaning and we can know what it is. All of the ancients. So I don't accept your Modernist/Postmodernist assumptions that it cannot be known and/or that it doesn't exist.

I was only semi-serious... But Christianity has played an important role in how we got where we are now. — ChatteringMonkey

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else.

In the end, you can only control your own actions.

Well, if we can, and yet obviously do not (re: nihilistic dumpster-fire of contemporary western life), then "inherent meaning" e.g. dao logos, dharma are not compelling enough to be distinguishable from their absence. So what then? Another distinction without a difference. A just-so story (empty consolations, or myths), nothing more. Celebrate your "God" of the ashes to your broken heart's content.

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else. — synthesis

No, it wouldn't have. The Adharmic nature of Abrahamism is particular to Abrahamism and Abrahamism alone.

The rest of civilization would've continued to follow Dharma.

Why do you believe so many people seem to connect with what he says? Is everybody wrong?

So, you believe everything is here merely on an accident? There's no order that keeps things in check, and puts them into the manner and way that they are?

I think that's absolute nonsense. And it's easy to show. If everything were an accident, we ought to see life spontaneously coming into existence all of the time at random. But we've never seen that. Life began only once, and despite the enormous efforts, intelligence, funding, time and resources behind attempts to create life, they cannot even create a single simple cell in a laboratory. Let alone a multicellular complex organism like a bee, or a tree, or a human, or a bird.

Not even one. They have to mimick and copy life and inject it into "machines" in order to "make life."

That's an absolute joke. If you're serious that there's no order, design, function, purpose underlying the fabric of the Cosmos, you have to be seriously deluded or seriously that stupid.

That's not an insult, that's how I genuinely feel.

Animals are what humans become when they don't use their reasoning faculty. However, they, unlike Modern/Postmodern people, follow natural law. That's why animals don't do stupid things, they follow natural law. Dharma. Modern humans reject natural law. — Dharmi

I assume you are a Buddhist? And I wouldn't be so hard on the animals. :)

Absolutely. Everyone is wrong. It used to be that all civilizations followed Dharma, Dao, Logos, natural law. Now nobody does.

Yes, they're absolutely wrong to reject it.

I assume you are a Buddhist? And I wouldn't be so hard on the animals. :) — synthesis

No, I am a follower of Sanatana Dharma, or Hinduism. I merely have the Buddhist avatar because it looks nice. Buddha himself was not a Buddh-ist, he was a Sanatani.

Don't evade the issue: contemporary life is a nihilistic dumpster-fire and yet shouldn't be if "inherent meaning", or something like providential g/G were, actively at work in the world; the latter speculative fairytale is refuted by the former fact of the matter. Explain this discrepancy – and stop bloviating your appeal to incredulity (& woo-of-the-gaps).

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something.
— synthesis

Yes because somehow this motivates us. Nevertheless it looks like some citizens of some countries have a solid path in the meaningful life not like others (we do not count China because yes it is flawed). — javi2541997

I think if you would do an accurate study, you might find that people are people are people. Some might be happier if their society is gaining, and others unhappier if they are losing, but how different can we be?

It is up to the individual to strike out from the herd if s/he wishes to transcend the mediocrity of it all.

I can explain this discrepancy, the reason is simple, nihilism is created through ideology. Modernism is an ideology. Modernism was created via Christianity, through medieval Scholastic nominalism. That view is false.

The reason people are nihilistic is because ideology that are false ideologies are assumed and believed by everyone. But they're false ideologies.

I recommend the book "Theological Origins of Modernity" to explain this discrepancy.

Premodern people had no problem with "nihilism" because they all understood that there is a Dao, Logos, Dharma, natural law to the universe. As long as you live your life in accord with that, then there's no nihilism.

The nominalist philosophy, that is the basis of nihilism and Modernism and Postmodernism. Is a view that directly contradicts that view. That's where the problem lies. That's where it comes from.

No, I am a follower of Sanatana Dharma, or Hinduism. I merely have the Buddhist avatar because it looks nice. Buddha himself was not a Buddh-ist, he was a Sanatani. — Dharmi

Try to make your practice inclusive as opposed to exclusive.

We are all one (after all).

My practice is inclusive. This is a philosophy forum, I'm simply debating. If you accept my view, fine, if you don't fine. I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just trying to get people to think.

We are all one, in a sense. But in another sense, we are not. If you reject God, that does have consequences, not eternal torture, but temporary consequences. Eventually, yes, all will be reunited with Godhead. But I'd rather some people, who desire it, be reunited immediately rather than millions of years of rebirths as lower life forms.

The intellect is something that is always changing but the Dharma is permanent. If you confuse the Dharma you can know with the Dharma as it is, you will go round and round for an infinite number of lifetimes.

Don't worry so much about what people think as they are on their own journey and they must work out their own karma. You will never be able to change anybody's mind.

And it's not a matter of accepting your views. What do your views mean in my life? I must accept my own views 100%, as must everybody else.

Premoderns built empires of slavery & caste and eradicated conquored peoples of like-minded 'perennial mythologies' who would not be subjugated. Bronze Age barbarisms are memorialized in the Avesta, Mahabharata, Tanakh, Bible, Quran and the rest. Modernity's failings more often than not are vestiges of Premodern atavisms – return of the repressed – rationalized into "ideologies" (i.e. secular dharmas) and instrumentalized through administrative technocratic states. Same shit, different epoch, but accelerated. 'The past that never was', friend, only exists up one own's perennially tight arse.

Don't worry so much about what people think as they are on their own journey and they must work out their own karma. You will never be able to change anybody's mind.

And it's not a matter of accepting your views. What do your views mean in my life? I must accept my own views 100%, as must everybody else. — synthesis

I'm just here trying to find those very few souls, as God says, who are beloved by him. I'm not interested in most people. I know most people aren't interested in philosophy, God or anything important in general, and those who are, usually believe nonsense. So I'm very well aware of the issue.

Karma is irrelevant when one remembers God. If one remembers God, all Karma is totally irrelevant.

"And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt." (Bhagavad Gita 8:5)

Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to get most people, or maybe even anyone, to accept my views. If, however, I find the one in a million of souls who are truly searching for God and freedom from this prison of materiality, then I'm here to guide those people.

↪Dharmi Premoderns built empires of slavery & caste and eradicated conquored peoples of like-minded 'perennial mythologies' who would not be subjugated. Bronze Age barbarisms are memorialized in the Avesta, Mahabharata, Tanahk, Bible, Quran and the rest. Modernity's failings more often than not are vestiges of Premodern atavisms – return of the repressed – rationalized into "ideologies" and instrumentalized through administrative technocratic states. Same shit, different epochs, accelerated. The past that never was, friend, is only exists up one own's perennially tight arse. — 180 Proof

This is, of course, true. As long as we're bound to the prison of materiality, the three modes of material nature, then this will always be the case.

Struggle, domination, survival, greed, lust, power. Whatever else. Humans are not exempt from that, no matter what age or time period it is.

I'm not saying Premodern peoples were perfect, if that's what you're insinuating. It ebbs and flows. Especially since the Age of Kali we're in.

Truste me they are not. You have a perspective of us because you visited my country multiple times but remember just for tourism. It is important to emphasise that touristic countries tend to make an unrealistic mask just to attract a lot of people (Spain does it) I don’t know which territories you visited but I guess the common ones as Andalucía or another Mediterranean beach. Well yes they are happy more they have to because we are in a mess. I don’t even understand my own compatriots but it seems very legit the 38 %.
I was buying some stuff in a market and a random dude asked us: “do you have some coins?” And then some woman replied “I wish I could give you some coins but I earn 400 € at month”
This made me feel sad my own country man... — javi2541997

Yes it was mostly touristic regions I guess, the Catalonia region multiple times and the Sevilla region. So I take your word for it. But then I don't really believe the numbers are that high in my country, people generally don't seem all that happy. Maybe material wealth (in which we do ok I guess) does paper over a lot of perceived unhappiness, certainly in reporting considering wealth is seen as a measure of 'succes' a lot of time...

But yeah the bad situation Spain, and the other southern European countries, are in at the moment, is really a shame. The Euro was a very bad deal for the south.

Buddha himself was not a Buddh-ist, he was a Sanatani. — Dharmi

The Hindu atman apparently contradicts with the Buddhist concept of emptiness. I imagine that there are all sorts of ways to talk around the issue, but I don’t see a way to resolve it, and if there’s no resolution then at least one story must be false.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to get most people, or maybe even anyone, to accept my views. If, however, I find the one in a million of souls who are truly searching for God and freedom from this prison of materiality, then I'm here to guide those people. — Dharmi

I understand what you are doing and applaud your commitment but you might want to consider applying your principles through your speech and actions in a way which is meaningful to others. IOW, the only people who care about what you (or any of us) think are those who have come specifically for guidance (and those folks are few and far between).

Again, I admire your passion and wish you the best of luck on your path!

I was only semi-serious... But Christianity has played an important role in how we got where we are now.
— ChatteringMonkey

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else. — synthesis

I don't think this is true, Christianity was historically very peculiar in many ways.

In the end, you can only control your own actions. — synthesis

This seem like a part of the myth of individualism, which ironically had its roots in Christianity.

The Euro was a very bad deal for the south. — ChatteringMonkey

We don’t have any other solution. It is bad but it could be worse...

The Euro was a very bad deal for the south.
— ChatteringMonkey

We don’t have any other solution. It is bad but it could be worse... — javi2541997

Now you maybe don't have any other solution, right. But at the moment of conception of the Euro, the southern countries never should have joined, because it removed the possibility of running their own monetary policy. Because of the Euro you had to follow a monetary policy that would never work for you, because you had another economy. It was an accident waiting to happen... and yeah hindsight doesn't really solve anything, but I think I wouldn't have been as bad as it is now.

The Hindu atman apparently contradicts with the Buddhist concept of emptiness. I imagine that there are all sorts of ways to talk around the issue, but I don’t see a way to resolve it, and if there’s no resolution then at least one story must be false. — praxis

That's right.

There either is a Self or there is no-Self.

But the Buddha himself didn't teach non-Self. It's a Buddh-ist doctrine. The Buddha's teachings, by themselves, are totally Hindu.

I'm doing whatever means I can. This is also for my own growth, I am doing Socratic dialogue. But I have a Youtube channel coming up, and I'm also working on translation to spread Dharmic principles. But anyway, that's that, this is this.

Because of the Euro you had to follow a monetary policy that would never work for you, because you had another economy. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes. It is a monetary policy that obviously doesn’t work for the Mediterranean countries but somehow this is a big win for Germany. They wanted something like this. Most of the countries divided and a flawed except them or some nordic nordic countries. That’s all.
But... they are not only guilty in this problem. My governors only put investment in tourism and that’s a big fail