What does that mean. If you mean financial independence from family, I see no problem with people living together with their parents, people should try extended families more.

If you mean our relationship to society, there is no sense of financial independence. You pay taxes together with other citizens to build roads and schools that we all use together for our activities and achieve our goals. I don’t know why anyone would want to be independent of that unless they want to become a hermit.

Namely, financial independence from an employer. It basically means that you have enough saved up or in investments that you don't need to work unless you want to and you're free to spend your time largely how you like - at least free of economic obstacles like needing to receive a paycheck to cover expenses.

In nations where the public health responses so far have been efficient and effective (e.g. Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Vietnam, Iceland, Germany, (Scandinavia), Australia, New Zealand, etc), you are quite right, NOS: their approaches have been much more collectivist than not. However, nations mislead by individualistic, reactive, populist governments like the former Trump maladministration, BoJo's clown show, Modi's "Raj", Xi's sweatshop gulag, Putin's klepto-czarship & Bolsonaro's junta, for example, demonstrate yet again that not working collectively – collaboratively – on common complex problems is disastrously self-defeating. — 180 Proof

When Trump said he was a war time president fighting an invisible enemy, the first thing I thought about was the front line troops, how the Commander In Chief and his crew failed to support the troops, how un-American it would be by their own patriotic standards, and how they essentially spit on the troops. What happened to all the "United We Stand", and "If you aren't with us you are against us", and blah blah blah? Troops died because of it, and the collateral damage of innocents was horrible. End rant, sorry. Next time conservatives go banging the drums of war, they can pay for it themselves and go under a different flag. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

In a capitalist society, is financial independence a morally acceptable goal for an adult in your view? What do you think about an adult striving to go from financial dependence to financial independence? — BitconnectCarlos

Sure, why not.

There are a couple of things mixed in here. One is the freedom from a boss, working for someone else for a wage. The other is freedom in terms of opportunities for leisure. Everyone prefers these for themselves, the difference is what they advocate. Do you think business owners should demand long working hours on behalf of workers so they can make more money. Or should we implement laws that drastically reduce working hours? Do you think the only way people should pursue the ideals mentions by becoming your own boss through starting a business, which is not a privilege to everyone. Or should we change how the wider economy is structured.

In terms of a personal goal, it’s fine.

:up: We met the new MAGA, same as the old MAGA, didn't we?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=40JmEj0_aVM

NOS, I may have missed it, but did you give some kind of definition? This is interesting but I can't get a firm grip on the concept. What are we discussing? Is individualism a value, attitude, belief, social policy, practice or what?

I did not. It’s a nebulous term. Mostly I wanted to see what others thought it was. No one has cited any individualist argument but the criticisms all resemble each other. I think that’s telling.

Equating individualism with avarice is a common argument. However avarice is a vice of individuals, not of individualism. Individualism encompasses the charitable as much as it does the self-interested, but we wouldn’t say individualism is charitable. — NOS4A2

Well stated.

The response to Covid was a collectivist project if I’ve ever seen one. Entire industries were at the mercy of governments; civil liberties were scattered to the wind; prison terms were used to describe our situation. As such, certain individuals benefited while others were mostly restrained from even trying, their livelihoods sacrificed on the alter of “national security”, “the common good”, which, in the mouths of those in state power, is always their own interests. — NOS4A2

I am convinced that even in the slave days, there were a certain percentage who believed they deserved their position.

Individualism (the love of freedom) is something you either get or you don't. Look how easy it has been to convince young people that it's about fear and victim-hood instead of courage and ambition to never stop growing.

In nations where the public health responses so far have been efficient and effective (e.g. Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Vietnam, Iceland, Germany, (Scandinavia), Australia, New Zealand, etc), you are quite right, NOS: their approaches have been much more collectivist than not. However, nations mislead by individualistic, reactive, populist governments like the former Trump maladministration, BoJo's clown show, Modi's "Raj", Xi's sweatshop gulag, Putin's klepto-czarship & Bolsonaro's junta, for example, demonstrate yet again that not working collectively – collaboratively – on common complex problems is disastrously self-defeating.

You’re right, but I don’t want my governments to be efficient and effective—welding people in their apartments is efficient and effective. I just want them to leave me alone.

I just want them to leave me alone. — NOS4A2

What you fail to recognize is that you are not alone. What you choose to do and not do affects others. It is possible to live in isolation, but you choose not to, and so you cannot at the same time choose to be left alone.

What you fail to recognize is that you are not alone. What you choose to do and not do affects others. It is possible to live in isolation, but you choose not to, and so you cannot at the same time choose to be left alone.

I don’t want isolation. By “leave me alone” I mean I want them to quit meddling in my life. That’s what you fail to recognize.

I don’t want isolation. By “leave me alone” I mean I want them to quit meddling in my life. That’s what you fail to recognize. — NOS4A2

How do you feel about you meddling in the lives of others? (Whatever meddling means in this context)

How do you feel about you meddling in the lives of others? (Whatever meddling means in this context)

Meddling or interfering. I feel I shouldn’t meddle in the lives of others.

Do you consider yourself an anarchist?

What I always find funny about individualists and their freedoms is how they basically whine about rights that haven't really existed for the majority of western people since the 1900s. By every conceivable standard, there's more choice and more freedom today than in the past with some fluctuations here and there. There's also more choice and freedom in western social democracies than the Anglo Saxon affair often touted as an example of individualism.

Personal rights are protected by strong and effective governments. In other words, small governments and maximized freedom are mutually exclusive.

By every conceivable standard, there's more choice and more freedom today than in the past with some fluctuations here and there. There's also more choice and freedom in western social democracies than the Anglo Saxon affair often touted as an example of individualism. — Benkei

At the same time though, I would argue that technological advancements have significantly impacted freedom. Mass surveillance, rapid communications and transportation has made effective resistance/avoidance of the state far more difficult.

Sure in the past there were regimes that did not respect the notion of human rights, but it was easier to evade it. The enforcement of state policy was not nearly as effective as it is now.

Do you consider yourself an anarchist?

I don’t, though I tend in that direction.

I don’t want isolation. By “leave me alone” I mean I want them to quit meddling in my life. That’s what you fail to recognize. — NOS4A2

Once again: What you choose to do and not do affects others. It is because of this that you cannot be left alone. The only way what you do would not affect others is if you lived in isolation. To be left alone you must be alone. And even then there would be an impact on others.

which countries embrace this type of monitoring? As I said, you need strong and effective government to protect rights. The right laws, rule of law, politically engaged citizenry etc. It's a cooperative effort to ensure governments don't devolve into tyranny. Democracy is never done, there's no end of history. Individualists are just parasites of the social goods society have provided them and their forefathers fought for.

↪bert1

Do you consider yourself an anarchist?

I don’t, though I tend in that direction. — NOS4A2

He is your standard run of the mill myopic libertarian.

Once again: What you choose to do and not do affects others. It is because of this that you cannot be left alone. The only way what you do would not affect others is if you lived in isolation. To be left alone you must be alone. And even then there would be an impact on others.

Should I meddle in your life because what you do affects others?

Should I meddle in your life because what you do affects others? — NOS4A2

It depends on what I am doing and how it affects others.

It depends on what I am doing and how it affects others.

What if I came over and demanded you pay a fine for parking too long?

Would my extended parking be a violation of the laws of the state or municipality? Are you authorized by a government agency to collect fines?

Would my extended parking be a violation of the laws of the state or municipality? Are you authorized by a government agency to collect fines?

Obviously I have no authority.

*gets knocked off a boat, struggling to stay afloat in the open sea*

"leave me alone"

Obviously I have no authority. — NOS4A2

Then I would tell you to report it to the proper authority.

As is your habit you shift from one thing to another when you are no longer able to defend a position. You were talking about:

my governments — NOS4A2

not someone without authority showing up at your door.

Being a libertarian must be easy you don't have to juggle more than three thoughts at a time and you can make pretty easy money by writing a half-brained eight paragraph blog post like Does God Own Property? for some billionaire-backed think tank called Bastiat Institute for Individual Freedom or some shit. All the Senior Fellows are white and over the age of 50 and at least two are pedophiles.

:smirk:

BOOM.

Tough titty, fella. Move as far off the grid as you can then (i.e. for consistancy sake, treat society / civilization itself as the egregious "externality" that you believe it is). And good luck with that! For the rest of us, however, the synergistic benefits of eusociality still far-outweigh the notional costs.

I feel I shouldn’t meddle in the lives of others. — NOS4A2

:lol:

...and yet here you are.