Would you sign up for the resistance if that happened to you? — frank

Well, although I'm not a practicing Christian now, I was brought up Christian, as a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Christianity strangely lingers in me in some respects, so of course I'd resist and fight with gusto. Deus Vult!

Palestinians are Greek Orthodox, the ones I know are, anyway.

Would you toss bombs into Jerusalem?

This would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. "If you can't win against a force that is successfully exterminating you bit by bit, then you ought to roll over and die in silence". — StreetlightX

Better to die in silence than take other innocent people with you.

Violence against oppression isn't evil. — Benkei

Pointless violence, however, definetly is. Hamas isn't fighting oppression. They're getting Palestinians and Israelis killed for zero gain.

And the conclusion that if there's no way out and they should just roll over and accept is ridiculously nihilistic. Evil should be resisted especially when success is unlikely. — Benkei

By what logic should you do something especially if it's unlikely to succeed? That's just indulging in a heroic fantasy.

Better to die in silence than take other innocent people with you. — Echarmion

And there it is.

Not a peep about the violence of settler colonialism of the Isreali state but - 'they should die in silence'.

Fucking warped.

let's get back to how Isreali apartheid is finally being shown for what it is. — StreetlightX

It is worth clarifying how the debate in this thread is unfolding. There is one
side, so-called "pro-Israel," pointing out various dimensions and complexity of the ongoing conflict so that the achievement of peace would require patience and a trade-off. And there is another side, "anti-Israel," contending that Israel bears full responsibility for the existence and escalations of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Strikingly, these positions and arguments are similar to one of Zizek's outstanding examples of ideological blindness: "Let us examine anti-Semitism. It is not enough to say that we must liberate ourselves from so-called 'anti-Semitic prejudices' and learn to see Jews as they really are - in this way we will certainly remain victims of these so-called prejudices. We must confront ourselves with how the ideological figure of the 'Jew' is invested with our unconscious desire, with how we have constructed this figure to escape a certain deadlock of our desire. The proper answer to anti-Semitism is therefore not 'Jews are really not like that' but 'the anti-Semitic idea of 'Jew' has nothing to do with Jews; the ideological figure of the ‘Jew’ is a way to stitch up the inconsistency of our own ideological system."
(Zizek,' The sublime object of ideology’). No, an "anti-Israel" protagonist is not necessarily an anti-Semite. But the ideological operative system here is similar to the Nazi anti-Semitic ideology in Zizek's sense. The grounding desire, an aspiration to immediately achieve the ultimate peace and justice, presupposes the evil ('sublime') object, invested with negativity and monstrosity. As a result, an ideological figure of 'Israel' has been constructed. 'Israel' has been labelled, demonized, and removed from civil discourse and the historical context. As Zizek points out, 'a pathological, paranoid construction' rejects objective facts and arguments. It employs them just for rationalizations and self-affirmations.

And there it is.

Not a peep about the violence of settler colonialism of the Isreali state but - 'they should die in silence'.

Fucking warped. — StreetlightX

Yeah you're just putting words in my mouth. But that's par for the course with you.

I don't care to repeat all the correct condemnations of Israeli behaviour that have already been voiced in this thread. What I think of Israel's actions isn't relevant to my point, but obviously for you it's all about who I am as a person, not what my arguments are.

for you it's all about who I am as a person, not what my arguments are. — Echarmion

Your arguments show me who you are as a person. A rat.

You arguments show me who you are as a person. A rat. — StreetlightX

Thanks for taking off your mask.

It appears that war may be coming quite soon:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-diverts-flights-rocket-barrage-palestinians-death-67-1.9796891

This is total fluff. When I say that the Isreali state should stop murdering children and engaging in settler colonialism, it really does have everything to do with the Isreali state, which is murdering children and engaging in settler colonialism.

Thanks for taking off your mask. — Echarmion

No worries, Mr. the-Palestinians-should-die-in-silence.

Better to die in silence than take other innocent people with you. — Echarmion

No, it's not.

Pointless violence, however, definetly is. Hamas isn't fighting oppression. They're getting Palestinians and Israelis killed for zero gain. — Echarmion

It's never pointless. They are fighting oppression. Use of methods which adversely impact innocents is a consequence of inequality. You want a fair fight? Then arm up the parties until they are on an equal footing. Don't want to do that? Okay, I understand why you would not want to do that. But then you live with the consequences of your oppression.

By what logic should you do something especially if it's unlikely to succeed? That's just indulging in a heroic fantasy. — Echarmion

By the same logic used to oppress you. I would fully understand Comanches raiding settler's homesteads and slaughtering the "innocent" women and children, and inviting reprisals against their own kin. If we wanted a fair fight, we should have got naked, jumped on a horse and took over their land that way, leaving our guns at home. Or we could have armed them up and trained them to fight and kill us on the terms we want to be fought and killed on. That's just fundamentally stupid.

Palestinians are Greek Orthodox — frank

A genuine though misguided Christian community.

Would you toss bombs into Jerusalem? — frank

We Christians have done far worse to the Jews than that. It's interesting to consider what would be the case if the Palestinians were all Christians, isn't it? My guess is that Israel would not exist, or at least that it would be a much more reduced nation than it is at this time. In any event, it would not be treating Christians as it is treating Palestinians now. If I were a Christian in the position of a Palestinian in these circumstances, I suspect I would be capable of doing most anything. Fortunately, I'm an aspiring Stoic.

When I say that the Isreali state should stop murdering children and engaging in settler colonialism, it really does have everything to do with the Isreali state, which is murdering children and engaging in settler colonialism. — StreetlightX

Should the other side stop firing missiles?

'The other side' can resist however it deems proper in the face of the genocide happening to its people.

So, you justify killing of Israeli civilians.

Palestinians were all Christians, isn't it? My guess is that Israel would not exist, or at least that it would be a much more reduced nation than it is at this time. In any event, it would not be treating Christians as it is treating Palestinians now. — Ciceronianus the White

Dark skinned Orthodox people would still seem foreign.

No, it's not. — James Riley

Why not? What's the utility of pointless death? I can understand fighting back even if you don't have a chance to win, but not if the people you hurt are not the people attacking you. And I mean "people" in the sense of individual persons here, not in the sense of sharing a nationality or language or "culture".

It's never pointless. — James Riley

I'll believe that if anyone can point out a practical way that rocket attacks or similar actions have the least bit of a positive effect on the situation of the oppressed.

They are fighting oppression. Use of methods which adversely impact innocents is a consequence of inequality. You want a fair fight? Then arm up the parties until they are on an equal footing. Don't want to do that? Okay, I understand why you would not want to do that. But then you live with the consequences of your oppression. — James Riley

I'm not objecting to their methods in a vacuum. I'm not saying they should "fight fair or fight not at all". I'm saying that what you're doing must have some practical chance of resulting in a situation that is "less bad". And I don't see such a chance here.

By the same logic used to oppress you. I would fully understand Comanches raiding settler's homesteads and slaughtering the "innocent" women and children, and inviting reprisals against their own kin. — James Riley

Understand, yes. Justify, no.

If we wanted a fair fight, we should have got naked, jumped on a horse and took over their land that way, leaving our guns at home. Or we could have armed them up and trained them to fight and kill us on the terms we want to be fought and killed on. That's just fundamentally stupid. — James Riley

At least the comanche raiders could believe that if they killed a bunch of civilians, the Europeans might retreat and they might get to keep their lands. But you'd have to be delusional to think that firing rockets at cities is going to get the Isreali military to back down, much less improve the chance of anyone else coming in to help you.

There is no justification for anything that is happening right now, on either side. Everyone has blood on their hands, but the people with the power to remedy this situation is Israel and Israel alone. I blame both sides for this violence - I rest responsibility for it wholly on Israel.

It's not possible to defend yourself while taking over a territory which is not yours. That's not a definition of defense.

If some people come in and take your house including the living room, 2 bedrooms while you stay in the bathroom and they take your towels, the faucet and even the tiles, all while killing family members while they're doing this and you fight back, the other side is not "defending" itself by killing more family members.

That's aggression. Not defense.

What's the utility of pointless death? — Echarmion

It's not pointless. You're paying attention, aren't you? That's the point.

I'll believe that if anyone can point out a practical way that rocket attacks or similar actions have the least bit of a positive effect on the situation of the oppressed. — Echarmion

It's kind of a "How does it feel, MFs?" kind of statement.

I'm saying that what you're doing must have some practical chance of resulting in a situation that is "less bad". And I don't see such a chance here. — Echarmion

You see, that's just it. Nothing they do would present such a case. Your argument reminds me of the arguments of some preceding the Civil War in the U.S. "Just wait, it will work itself out and go away." It had been generations. Sometimes, the gig is up. You can get on the trains or you can kick them in the nuts as you go down.

Understand, yes. Justify, no. — Echarmion

If justice had anything to do with it, we wouldn't have the situation in the first place.

At least the comanche raiders could believe that if they killed a bunch of civilians, the Europeans might retreat and they might get to keep their lands. But you'd have to be delusional to think that firing rockets at cities is going to get the Isreali military to back down, much less improve the chance of anyone else coming in to help you. — Echarmion

I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic. The exact, exact same arguments were made to the Comanche. In fact, some leaders were brought back east to see the might of the U.S. and the futility of resistance. That didn't help and, understandably, it wouldn't.

Edited to add: The Palestinians have a much greater chance than did the Comanche.

Biden needs to say something.

Do you support the intentional murder of Israeli civilians via Hamas rocket launches into residential areas?

Yes or no. That's all I want to hear.

Biden needs to say something. — frank

Maybe, rather than talk, he should reverse all the Trump actions. Move embassies, etc.

No.

Do you support continued Israeli expansion and occupation of Palestinian territory?

I don't support the intentional murder of Israeli civilians via Hamas rocket launches into residential areas, but I do understand it.

If Israel doesn't like it, they should give Hamas smart weapons and the lat lon of Israeli military bases. That way Hamas could limit their attacks to combatants. No? Why not?

Expansion? No. Occupation? I don't like the occupation but until the Palestinians renounce violence as a political tool I think the occupation is a necessary evil. I would love to end it though.

Expansion? No. Occupation? I don't like the occupation but until the Palestinians renounce violence as a political tool I think the occupation is a necessary evil. I would love to end it though. — BitconnectCarlos

I don't know how you'd react if they keep stealing your land and killing family members. The PLO was a "terrorist" organization, until Israel helped create Hamas, as they did. Such reactionaries as the WSJ can confirm this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

So what are they to do? Say thank you for stealing more land, for not staying to resolution 242 and for limiting our caloric intake in Gaza?

Please.

Maybe, rather than talk, he should reverse all the Trump actions. Move embassies, etc. — James Riley

I think the world is just going to watch. Unless the Saudis decide to attack Israel.

Well Palestinians keep killing our family members too. This cycle has gone back thousands of years and it's likely going to continue. You say the Palestinians are mad and grieving? Well so are the Israelis. How many Israelis do you know that were killed in the two intifatas? How about the random knife killing sprees in populated, urban areas that put the entire country on edge? What about the bombs disguised as wrapped gifts that Hamas used to lure in children? Do you have younger siblings?

I've never claimed Israel is perfect, but any resolution to this issue is going to have to acknowledge that it's not a black and white issue and that wrong exists on both sides.

It's not pointless. You're paying attention, aren't you? That's the point. — James Riley

The point is death? For its own sake or what?

It's kind of a "How does it feel, MFs?" kind of statement. — James Riley

Yeah, that's just straight up evil in my book.

You see, that's just it. Nothing they do would present such a case. Your argument reminds me of the arguments of some preceding the Civil War in the U.S. "Just wait, it will work itself out and go away." It had been generations. Sometimes, the gig is up. You can get on the trains or you can kick them in the nuts as you go down. — James Riley

Who is "they" here? Are we treating all Israelis as some kind of faceless amalgam, where one part can stand in for the sins of another?

If justice had anything to do with it, we wouldn't have the situation in the first place. — James Riley

If morality goes out the window in difficult situation, why have it at all?

Though I want to point out I'm not blaming Palestinians for doing what they do. They're in a terrible situation and will do whatever they think they have to do.

My problem is with people sitting in front of a computer casually accepting or dismissing death and destruction.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic. The exact, exact same arguments were made to the Comanche. In fact, some leaders were brought back east to see the might of the U.S. and the futility of resistance. That didn't help and, understandably, it wouldn't.

Edited to add: The Palestinians have a much greater chance than did the Comanche. — James Riley

Again, I'm not saying I don't understand why people would act this way. I just don't see what's good about it.

Biden needs to say something. — frank

Didn't he already tweet a message of support to Israel?

It doesn't seem likely that the Biden administration would do anything of consequence to stop Israel.