• Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Greek philosophy: Indian, Indo-European, or Egyptian?

    Ancient Greek philosophy emerged in the 6th century BC and has played a major role in the development of Western philosophy. But where did its central concepts originate? Some have identified Indo-European, Indian or Egyptian elements.

    Although some cultural interchange with India does seem to have taken place, and influence flowed in both directions, an Egyptian connection cannot be ruled out. Indeed, it seems likely.

    Death and immortality played a central role in Greek thought from the time of Homer and immortality was subsequently re-imagined under the influence of philosophical cosmology and theology which in turn show Mesopotamian and Egyptian influence as does Greek astronomy and astrology.

    There were two basic conceptions of death and afterlife in the Ancient World. One was the Sumerian/Mesopotamian one which viewed the afterlife as an underworld of darkness, and the other was the Egyptian one which viewed it as a possibility of attaining everlasting life in paradise.

    The Ancient Sumerian and Egyptian Attitudes toward Death and the Afterlife

    The ancient Egyptians viewed death as a temporary transition into what could become everlasting life in paradise. The Egyptian outlook on death was not focused on fear as much as it was preparing and transitioning into a new prosperous afterlife.

    The Egyptian Gods judged the merits of human character and deeds when deciding who was permitted to be immortal. As a result, much of human-life was centered on the hopeful attitude that if one is moral, one will live forever in a blissful afterlife. (This is somewhat comparable to Christian conceptions of religion that may also, at least partly or indirectly, have Egyptian roots.)

    So, basically, for the Egyptians – at least the wise or the initiated into wisdom traditions – life was a preparation for death.

    Greek philosophy seems to follow the Egyptian outlook, with philosophical life being regarded as a preparation for death. Virtuous conduct on earth was regarded as the path to higher realms of existence after death, while an unvirtuous life led to a place of suffering. This was particularly central to the tradition established by Pythagoras and Plato. See, for example, Phaedo 67e.

    There are literary accounts of Pythagoras going to Egypt in search of secret knowledge which he apparently obtained from Egyptian temple priests.

    “[Pythagoras] was also initiated into all the mysteries of Byblos and Tyre, and in the sacred function performed in many parts of Syria […] After gaining all he could from the Phoenician mysteries, he found that they had originated from the sacred rites of Egypt […] This led him to hope that in Egypt itself he might find monuments of erudition still more genuine, beautiful and divine. Therefore following the advice of his teacher Thales, he left, as soon as possible, through the agency of some Egyptian sailors […] and at length happily landed on the Egyptian coast […] Here in Egypt he frequented all the temples with the greatest diligence, and most studious research […] After twelve years, about the fifty-sixth year of his age, he returned to Samos …”

    Iamblichus’ Life of Pythagoras

    The solar symbolism found in Greek philosophers like Plato also seems to have Egyptian parallels.

    In the Republic (Politeia) Plato gives the analogy of the sun which provides the visibility of the objects, but also generates them and is the source of their growth and nurture.

    Above the phenomenal world or world of appearances is the intelligible or noumenal world which is illumined by the Good (ton Agathon).

    The Good is also the source of all ideas that constitute the intelligible world, copies of which make up the phenomenal world.

    In other words, the whole of existence, including soul, originates in the Good and is bathed in its light just as the physical world is bathed in the light of the sun.

    "... And this is he whom I call the child of the Good, whom the Good begat in his own likeness, to be in the visible world, in relation to sight and the things of sight, what the Good is in the intellectual world in relation to mind and the things of mind.

    And the soul is like the eye: when resting upon that on which truth and being shine, the soul perceives and understands and is radiant with intelligence; but when turned towards the twilight of becoming and perishing, then she has opinion only, and goes blinking about, and is first of one opinion and then of another, and seems to have no intelligence

    You would say, would you not, that the Sun is not only the author of visibility in all visible things, but of generation and nourishment and growth, though he himself is not generation?

    In like manner the Good may be said to be not only the author of knowledge to all things known, but of their being and essence, and yet the Good is not essence, but far exceeds essence in dignity and power ..."

    Both Socrates and Plato are traditionally associated with the Greek Sun God Apollo. For example, in Phaedo 85b, Socrates refers to himself as "the dedicated servant of Apollo from whom he obtained the gift of prophecy".

    The Platonic outlook seems to be a philosophical or spiritual interpretation of Egyptian religious belief. Egyptian tradition itself entailed various levels of interpretation such as ritual, metaphysical and philosophical or spiritual. The Platonic tradition would correspond to the latter and would seem to support the traditional account of Pythagoras - and possibly other Greeks - acquiring secret knowledge from the Egyptians.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I think that your discussion is extremely interesting but one underlying issue which is also applicable is the nature of early civilisations. It seems that the early thinkers were so advanced, and I wonder about the epistemological foundations of their knowledge.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    It seems that the early thinkers were so advanced, and I wonder about the epistemological foundations of their knowledge.Jack Cummins

    They certainly were highly advanced, indeed, we may say unsurpassed. I don't think philosophy has advanced much since Plato and Plotinus and for a very good reason. The philosophical teachings of Greek philosophy were meant as an intellectual framework for spiritual practice in the form of mental purity, development of moral virtues, and certain techniques such as meditation and contemplation that would take the practitioner beyond philosophy as an intellectual pursuit.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    About a month ago, someone wrote a thread on esoteric knowledge, although that was based more on the idea of the knowledge as being part of power elitism rather than the ideas of the esoteric knowledge. However, it does seem to me that the underlying traditions underlying Egyptian, Indian and Greek thought can be traced back to knowledge as esoteric wisdom. I believe that Sumerian knowledge, especially Hinduism was important in the development of these ideas, but I do think that it is probably also useful to frame these partly in the historical contexts in which they arose and passed into other traditions.

    Edit: I just thought that you may be interested to know that there is a website called 'Forgotten Books', which is a way of accessing books on esoteric wisdom. One particular book which I downloaded was one by Plato on the lost civilisations of Atlantis. I know that many people do not believe in the historical existence of the idea of Atlantis, but in considered lost knowledge and wisdom I do believe that question such as the existence of Atlantis do seem to come into the picture. For example, I am aware of writers, such as Zachariah Sitchkin, who saw early human beings as communicating directly with the 'gods'. However, some of this writing is far fetched, but it seems to have some importance in the consideration of the early traditions of spiritual and philosophical thought.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    I believe that Sumerian knowledge, especially Hinduism was important in the development of these ideas, but I do think that it is probably also useful to frame their partly in the historical contexts in which they arose and passed into other traditions.Jack Cummins

    Indian influence may explain Pythagorean and Platonic belief in reincarnation, but other concepts are more likely to have an Egyptian origin/influence. After all, Egypt was just across the sea and as stated in the OP there was Egyptian influence on art, architecture, as well as astronomy and mathematics. Astronomy was closely related to religion and spirituality, hence some elements of Egyptian (and Sumerian) philosophy may have passed into Greek traditions along with astronomy.

    Reincarnation was not part of the earliest Indian texts such as the Vedas and seems to have emerged in Indian traditions about the same time as in the Greek ones, in any case not much earlier. The difficulty is to show Greek dependence on Indian traditions on the available historical evidence. We have no idea of what India's earliest religious and philosophical beliefs were. The Indus Valley (Harrapa) Civilization was not earlier than the Sumerian or Egyptian and India itself was influenced by other cultures.

    Edit: Thanks for mentioning the website. Yes, it is possible that some spiritual knowledge was acquired from Atlantis, the Minoans and other ancient civilizations. Equally possible is that some elements of Greek spirituality go back to the spiritual traditions of the ancient Indo-Europeans to whom the Greeks also belonged and among which the Sun and attendant symbolism probably plaid an important role.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I added an edit to the post which I wrote to you. I am not saying that I think that you should focus too much on questions like Atlantis or writers such as Sitchkin. The reason I brought it in is because I am sure it has to come in at some point in the topic which you are discussing, so I thought that it may as well be addressed sooner rather than later.

    One aspect which I do consider to be extremely important is the nature of sources of information and the need for critical examination of these. I did study a term module on Hinduism and I remember one aspect which the tutor drew attention to, which was a certain limitation through not being able to read Sanskrit. However, I don't think that we should stop trying to understand but approach it with the best authoritative knowledge sources, and perhaps my own digression into the more outlandish areas of points to the way that there is so much material available which is mostly speculation. I see the area you raise as being important but it will probably need backing up with various sources and texts. However, you have given a couple already and it may be that others will be able to add more.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    I see the area you raise as being important but it will probably need backing up with various sources and texts. However, you have given a couple already and it may be that others will be able to add more.Jack Cummins

    Yes, further sources will be added as the discussion proceeds. I'm still doing research on it myself.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    death and afterlifeApollodorus

    I don't know how tests/exams are conducted these days - the last one I took was at least a decade ago, excepting a COVID antigen test a few months ago - but my experience with them has been that most of us who did sit for an exam/test, wrote down answers that had, to use a statistical term, a very small standard deviation (very little variability). The reason - we all got the exact same questions/problems. I suspect that the Greeks, Egyptians, and Indians were all grappling with the same issue - death! Given this and ceteris paribus it would be more surprising if there were variations in the proposed solutions than if there are similarities. In other words, similar solutions or takes on the same question/issue/problem (here death) isn't remarkable in any way and to infer anything from it other than the obvious fact mentioned above might be a huge mistake.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    similar solutions or takes on the same question/issue/problem (here death) isn't remarkable in any way and to infer anything from it other than the obvious fact mentioned above might be a huge mistake.TheMadFool

    I agree. However, There appear to be a significant number of parallels between Egyptian and Greek philosophical traditions in addition to numerous statements in Greek texts to the effect that Greeks borrowed knowledge from the Egyptians. I am aware that ancient authors often make extravagant claims, but there is no reason to doubt it in this case, especially when there is other corroborating evidence. Certainly, evidence of Egyptian Influence seems to be more substantial than Indian influence.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    It is a commonly held view that ‘the Egyptians had no philosophy’ and that philosophy began with the Greeks. However, some of the major Greek philosophers, including Thales, Pythagoras and Plato, recognised their huge debt to the sages of Egypt for their knowledge and ideas. Plato himself, for example, apparently spent 13 years studying with the Egyptian priests at Heliopolis.

    The difficulty scholars today have with this is that we have no records of a discursive Egyptian philosophy, in other words, philosophy in the form in which we are used to thinking of it today.
    But according to philosopher and historian Pierre Hadot, author of Philosophy as a Way of Life, philosophy was seen in a very different way in the ancient world to the way it is perceived today. It was characterised, he said, by two formulas: learning to live and learning to die.

    In other words, it was eminently practical, on the one hand and metaphysical on the other. We find both of these poles in Egyptian philosophy: their ‘wisdom literature’, or moral philosophy, dealt with how to live; and their ‘funerary texts’ concerned ‘learning how to die’.

    And it is not the case that Egyptians had no philosophers. One example of an Egyptian moral philosopher is Ptah-hotep, who wrote a book entitled The Wisdom. Indeed, historian Will Durant (The Story of Civilization) asserts that Ptah-hotep is probably the world’s first philosopher.

    Philosophy in ancient Egypt - New Acropolis Library

    So, the Egyptians did have a philosophy, after all, and close parallels can be found in Greek philosophy. An important Egyptian concept was that of maat, justice, which represented the Cosmic Order upon which law and order in human society was based.

    The very same concept is found in Greek culture and religion and, especially, in the moral philosophical traditions of Greece like Pythagoreanism and Platonism.

    The term justice (dike) or righteousness (dikaiosyne) occurs hundreds of times in Platonic texts such as Republic/Politeia and seems to have been used as a manifestation of Cosmic Order exactly as in the Egyptian case. The very word "cosmos", Greek kosmos, which we have inherited from the Greeks, refers to the ordered universe.

    Ancient Egyptian Philosophy – Wikipedia
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