For me, it has nothing to do with the vaccine or Covid, per se. Rather, it's more about my subjective, pre-judgmental view of what I perceive to be a stereotype of an anti-vaxer. I see them as Trump supporters, anti-intellectual knuckle-dragging, selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful, bible-thumping conservative Republican, back-water haters who think they are "renegades", "rebels", cut from the same cloth as our founding fathers, out fighting for freedom, truth, justice and the American way. So naturally, I want them to mask and vax or die. Unfortunately, that's now how Covid or the vax works. So I shrug my shoulders and let things play out. I got the J&J one and done. The only side affects seem to be Bill Gates telling me to buy more MicroSoft Products. I haven't been able to figure that one out yet, but I'm dystopian-loving sheep so we're all good.

I think in the process of reacting to them, you've become similar to them in some respects, namely the adoption of a political lens and disregard for facts.

This is a new technology, fairly new anyway. Do you understand what the Pfizer vaccine does?

I think in the process of reacting to them, you've become similar to them in some respects, namely the adoption of a political lens and disregard for facts. — frank

Bingo! And let that be a lesson to them! When Michelle Obama said to go high when they go low, I said not so much.

This is a new technology, fairly new anyway. Do you understand what the Pfizer vaccine does? — frank

I do not. Nor do I wish to invest the time or resources required to make myself an expert on the matter. Thus, I default to those who have made that investment. I know there's risk involved in that and I'm willing to take that risk.

do not. Nor do I wish to invest the time or resources required to make myself an expert on the matter. Thus, I default to those who have made that investment. I know there's risk involved in that and I'm willing to take that risk. — James Riley

Vaccines are tested on a specific timeline derived from past experiences with vaccine development.

If a problem appears with a vaccine, such as deaths of the recipients, it usually happens in the first couple of months.

We used that same timeline on a revolutionary vaccine. We didn't know if we'd given it long enough to show problems because we've never used this technology before. So it was risk, but it seemed to be worth taking.

So it's not just the multiphase test recipients who took the burden of testing it. It was all of us who have taken it so far. We're testing it. If you knew how bizarre the function of these vaccines actually is, it might help you understand what I'm saying.

If someone out there declines that risk, it's ok. Herd immunity doesn't require 100%.

This is a view that's in keeping with my devotion to life. I don't understand those who see politics instead of real people.

I think people should be free to take or reject the vaccine. Governments may pressure people to get vaccinated to show that they are doing something but I doubt it can make much difference if the virus keeps mutating or if China decides to release another one.

If you knew how bizarre the function of these vaccines actually is, it might help you understand what I'm saying. — frank

It might, but I've chosen not to know.

If someone out there declines that risk, it's ok. Herd immunity doesn't require 100%. — frank

I've heard it's like 70+% and we are not there yet, thanks to those who decline to take the risk. I don't think that is okay.

I don't understand those who see politics instead of real people. — frank

If those who declined to take the risk were doing so based on the science, then I'd toss them a bone. But I believe most of them (enough to keep us from herd immunity) are declining based on politics instead of people. My test to show this was to bribe them and see just how valuable their alleged concern really is. Funny how many people go for the lottery, the sporting tickets, etc. They claim all this principle, or science, but when we are talking money, they change their tune. The question is, should society be paying people to do the right thing, while others subsidize them? If word gets out, people will refuse the vax just to get paid to do it. Again, it would have nothing to do with real people (other than themselves). Hell, they place their own loved one's at risk.

heard it's like 70+% and we are not there yet, thanks to those who decline to take the risk. — James Riley

A lot of states are at around 50%, right. That plus immunity from infection has to put us pretty close.

I think people should be free to take or reject the vaccine. — Apollodorus

"My body, my choice." Where have I heard that?

A lot of states are at around 50%, right. That plus immunity from infection has to put us pretty close. — frank

From what little I understand, Covid doesn't respect political boundaries, be it interstate in the U.S. or international. Early on they were saying that even if everyone one in the U.S. got the vax, it would do no good if the rest of the planet was ginning up a bunch of variants that could pierce the vax.

Edited to add: They were also saying that pre-vax, with just herd immunity from getting it. Some northern European country was trying the herd immunity idea and scientists said that wouldn't work due to variants.

Early on they were saying that even if everyone one in the U.S. got the vax, it would do no good if the rest of the planet was ginning up a bunch of variants that could pierce the vax. — James Riley

So far the variants haven't been a problem. If the spike protein changes significantly, they would have to make another vaccine. That wouldn't take long, though.

Some northern European country was trying the herd immunity idea and scientists said that wouldn't work due to variants. — James Riley

I think the conventional wisdom now is that this virus is here to stay. Like with the flu, a bunch of people will die every year from it.

I think the conventional wisdom now is that this virus is here to stay. Like with the flu, a bunch of people will die every year from it. — frank

I also heard that flu illness and death dropped precipitously into the toilet due to masking and social distancing related to Covid protocols. Some 33,000 lives saved? Yet the same morons that I detest were also against those protocols. I wonder, on the one hand, how many died due to morons, and, on the other hand, how many were saved by the people who followed protocol. What would it have been if everyone had decided to act like a moron?

So far the variants haven't been a problem. If the spike protein changes significantly, they would have to make another vaccine. That wouldn't take long, though. — frank

That's optimistic. Great. I also heard from a scientist that (my words, not his): "Covid-shmovid. This is not the big one. Not even close. The big one will not be Covid or a Covid variant. It will be more transmissible and more lethal by huge orders of magnitude."

: "Covid-shmovid. This is not the big one. Not even close. The big one will not be Covid or a Covid variant. It will be more transmissible and more lethal by huge orders of magnitude." — James Riley

Question is, given that Covid may or may not have been transmitted to us by animal vectors, will the "big one" be transmitted by animals or will it escape or "escape" from a lab?

:lol: I agree with your analysis. It's ridiculous how ideological it became in the USA. Stupidity has far to much sway in America. I blame it on mass media.

Question is, given that Covid may or may not have been transmitted to us by animal vectors, will the "big one" be transmitted by animals or will it escape or "escape" from a lab? — Janus

I don't remember the specifics but he referenced a currently well-known and extremely lethal virus that just has not yet made the jump from animals to people and it has not yet become airborne even between animals. The idea was that something like that which already exists ends up mutating to cross species and become airborne, even wind-borne, transoceanic, etc. It doesn't need a lab. But if anyone did such a thing, they'd be fools if they were not already immune or had a vax. It will be so lethal and fast that there won't be time to respond after the fact.

I blame it on mass media. — Wayfarer

That is a big factor, no doubt. But we don't invest in education they way we should, and we lack good leadership. If everyone was trained in analytic and critical thinking, then lies, propaganda and stupidity would be welcome as comic relief. As it is now, they are taken seriously. If we had real leaders, they'd confront cowards like Trump and confront anyone who would follow such a punk.

I take a keen interest in US politics - son lives there - but I can’t see how the Democratic Party could have done anything other than what it has done. I suppose that belongs in another thread, like the Trump thread. But it must be significant that since the new administration came into office, the US vaccination program has actually been pretty good, unlike what it would have been under the useless previous administration who’s only concern was ever blowing smoke up Trump’s...never mind. But overall, this administration is far more deferential to the science than the previous one.

"My body, my choice." Where have I heard that? — fishfry

LOL. I thought I made that up myself. Turns out you can buy t-shirts.

:100:

since the new administration came into office, the US vaccination program has actually been pretty good, unlike what it would have been under the useless previous administration — Wayfarer

You don't credit Trump's Operation Warp Speed with the development of a vax in record time? During most of 2020, Democrats said that no vax could ever be developed. Kamala Harris said that she would refuse to take any vax developed by Trump. Of course subsequently she has gladly taken that exact vax.

Operation Warp Speed

Why Trump's Operation Warp Speed is credited with helping race for COVID-19 vaccine

Sure, but being skeptical or cautious about the safety of the Covid vaccines (which have not undergone the usual mandatory 10-15 years of testing that vaccines undergo) does not equate to being an anti-vaxxer per se.

Actually I do agree with that. I think caution is warranted. But I also think that the whole issue became entangled with both anti-vaccination sentiment, and also other elements of conspiracy theory that are and were swirling around in 2020-21.

Like the ‘lab escape’ theory - this is now being reconsidered. But in March-April 2020, it sounded like one, due to the way Trump seized on it. See this story.

You folks are in a different situation. You need high vaccination rate so you can open your border. Still, I think the people in charge of public health there are recommending young women not take the AZ vaccine. They can take the Pfizer or Moderna.

That is true. But I still think it’s well-established that the risks from COVID are far higher than the risks from any of the vaccines. Still, my relatives, if they say they would prefer to avoid the AZ vaccine, I certainly wouldn’t try and talk them into getting it.

As far as I can tell, if politics (civil liberties) and health (pandemic-related morbidity & mortality) are what matters to the vaccine hesitancy phenomenon in some countries, we need to listen to both sides of the story as not doing that may actually backfire in both the short-term and the long-term.

For what it's worth I like to look at the issue from a two-word perspective, the words being "certain" and "probable."

Considering the fact that vaccines have a long and illustrious history, let's begin there. I'm under the impression that those involved with vaccine research, development, and deployment know their stuff in a manner of speaking - well-trained, highly-experienced, not to mention very intelligent folk are part of vaccine projects and a Google search indicates that data supporting the immense benefits of vaccination campaigns are available for review/analysis at the click of a mouse button. Factoring this in, it would be the heights of stupidity to not pay heed to vaccine advocates' warning that disaster of unimaginable magnitude is certain if the global vaccination drive were to falter or halt.

On the flip side, those who voice concerns for civil liberties, their violation to be specific, seem to be worried about how mandatory vaccination could be the first insiduous step towards some form Orwellian authoritarian state of affairs. The problem, if it is one, is that this is far from certain. In other words, such a world, the one some who want to preserve their right to choose whether to take the vaccine or not want to prevent, is at best only probable.


The choice then, if choice is so important to us, is between a certain health catastrophe if one refuses the COVID vaccine and a probable political catastrophe if one accepts the COVID vaccine.

The only side affects seem to be Bill Gates telling me to buy more MicroSoft Products. I haven't been able to figure that one out yet, but I'm dystopian-loving sheep so we're all good. — James Riley

It's easy. It's about control, much like how the US and Britain gave up on owning the oil in the world, they now go for control.

You know how until ten years ago or until five years ago, you, the user, had control whether to have Windows updates or not. Not that has been taken away from you. If your computer is connected to the Internet, then you have no choice: Microsoft can and does update your system automatically, and you have no control over that.

So now the whole world's computing power (except for cell phones and Apple computers) is at the mercy of Bill Gates. If he says "do it", all the computers in the world can go from functioning machines to being useless pieces of metal junk.

How this escapes the minds of the most powerful people, the American public, can only be explained by knowing that they are either stupid, or else they are not stupid, but instead have blind faith in their government. After all, presidents don't lie, they are the mostes greatest all-Americanest boys.

My body my choice.

Suicides have the choice, too, over their own lives.

Alcoholics have the choice too.

The choice becomes malignant if it leads to affecting the lives of others via one's choosing one's destiny.

A president can't and shouldn't and ought not to test whether the red button works by pressing it.

People who believe that the vax makes them sick, or it does not work, are allowed to believe that, as it is impossible to argue with reasons against the views of the stupid.

But those who believe that the vaccines work, and they choose to refuse to be vaxxed, due to a principle of holding individual freedom as the most sacrosanct of values, are not society people; they are individualists, and they should be FORCED to be cut off from all the amenities of living in a society, if they believe that their rights trump the needs of society.

That is true. But I still think it’s well-established that the risks from COVID are far higher than the risks from any of the vaccines. Still, my relatives, if they say they would prefer to avoid the AZ vaccine, I certainly wouldn’t try and talk them into getting it. — Wayfarer

You need to look at the data broken down by demographic. Young women have a much lower incidence of severe illness with COVID19.

What are the arguments for and against the responsibility that individuals might be thought to bear to accept a Covid 19 vaccine? What are the arguments for and against the right that individuals might be thought to enjoy to refuse a Covid 19 vaccine? — Janus

Arguments for: protection of ones health, protection of fellow man, protection of the vulnerable, collaboration and cooperation, developing trust, facing group adversity with a group effort, civil duty (just as washing your hands and practising good hygiene also protects everyone else),

Arguments against: not all people can take a vaccine, healthy skepticism and the maintenance of unbiased, uncensored debate about technologies and their impacts/ democratic process, personal health autonomy, reservations regarding long term impacts of something that hasn’t been trialled for longterm effects, religious freedom for those where using a technology is against their way of life, philosophy or spiritual beliefs (think Amish - they don’t use modern appliance technology as they wish to remain close to the land, nature and simple life or Mormons not taking blood).
Acceptance of the fact that simply everyone will never agree about virtually anything.

What are the arguments for and against the responsibility that individuals might be thought to bear to accept a Covid 19 vaccine? — Janus

Follow the money: Health insurance doesn't cover the costs of the treatment of the side effects of experimental vaccines (which is what all the covid vaccines are). That ought to tell you something.
If you get blood clots and then a stroke after the vaccination, and end up paralyzed for the rest of your life, along with becoming homeless because the bank took your house because you couldn't pay the medical bills -- well, this is just a fair and reasonable burden that a citizen should take upon themselves, right? The vaccine is, after all, "safe and effective".
(Oh, and you also can't get life insurance if you've been vaccinated.)

I wish I had the freedom not to be expected to go along with the hysteria of the provaxxers and I wish I had the freedom not to be expected to go along with the hysteria of the antivaxxers. But we don't live in a free world.