One's sex is constitutively determined by sets of physical features. — Bartricks

Sexual dimorphism is the reason that there are billions of humans created by reproduction not because someone assigned our sex at birth.

Most trans people do not pass — Andrew4Handel

Do not pass what? Wind?

I've worked with trans children and seen the difference that recognition makes to them. I don't pretend to understand transsexuality, but that does not lead me to damn it, as you do.

B) Subjectivism about sex

One's sex is constitutively determined by subjective features (one's attitudes etc). — Bartricks

That is sex stereotypes which is the foundation of transgenderism. It is about conforming to stereotypes to feel comfortable. Many women now wear trousers but if you go on reddit trans sub reddit's most of the men identifying as women wear skirts and say how great it feels.

They don't say anything that reminds me of my three sisters and their experiences as being women. It just comes of as a fetish.

I certainly agree with you that this is a debate where a lot of ugly sexist and homophobic attitudes have found a way of expressing themselves without being called-out for what they are.

But which of A, B, C or D is true is a philosophical matter. It is just that position B - subjectivism about sex - is a position that is going to be especially appealing to a certain sort of sexist (not all -there's more than one way to be a sexist!). That doesn't mean B is false, of course. It just explains why many support it - there are a lot of sexists out there. Though one could endorse B and not be a sexist, of course.

In what sense is it anecdotal? — Andrew4Handel

In the definitive sense:

anecdotal
1. (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research
https://www.oxfordify.com/meaning/anecdotal

I have survived 45 years using my ears and eyes to tell me how reality works. I am not going to distrust my senses based on someone else's self i.d. in their mind. — Andrew4Handel

That doesn't sound very scientific to me. Using your eyes and ears to tell you how reality works is what nearly everyone does. Also, scientists don't tend to go around declaring whose eyes and ears they are going to trust and whose eyes and ears they are going to distrust.

I thought gender dysphoria was a mental illness now we are told it's not — Andrew4Handel

Given you have opened this thread talking about science, what does the science say?

I've worked with trans children — Banno

What are trans children?

Most children with gender dysphoria are gay and without intervention resolve their identity issues. Affirmation and puberty blockers etc prolong gender dysphoria.

I am lucky I am a gay man who only wanted to hang around with girls as a young child. I liked hanging around with girls without feeling there was anything wrong with this. I enjoyed being around the opposite sex with no shame and no need to not identify as male. I was diagnosed as autistic in my 40's which explains my non conformity but also 2 trans identified people I know I met through autism services and the other 2 trans people I know exhibited autistic traits.

Your making unsupported assertions. I'm recounting what I have seen.

Folk are complicated. Let 'em work it out for themselves. They don't need middle aged men telling them what to do.

Or if you prefer, suck it up and mind your own business.

That doesn't sound very scientific to me. Using your eyes and ears to tell you how reality works is what nearly everyone does — InPitzotl

Science has to assume that some human faculties are accurate., Are you seriously claiming you cannot identify who is male and female. The start of categorisation of entities is based on the reliability of the human senses.

Science shows and every day experience that only a man and woman can produce a children.

They have yet to create the insane dystopia of trying to give a woman a penis implant and implant a womb in a man. But by Jebus they are trying hard.

Or if you prefer, suck it up and mind your own business. — Banno

Undermining women's rights, women's sports, gay erasure and genital mutilation, medication of children is everyone's business I am not selfish enough to think otherwise.

It us not a distinction it is a case of natural and artificial — Andrew4Handel

This comment is incoherent. You claim there is no distinction, but then you distinguish one as being natural and the other artificial, while my position has been that you've established a distinction that makes no difference and that you only object to when it offends your views on sexual morality. Not sure this can be unmuddled.

double mastectomy is not a a breast reduction. It is breast annihilation and when performed on young women can lead to chronic pain in later life. Hysterectomies increase the risk of Alzheimer's, heart attacks and osteoporosis. — Andrew4Handel

Sure, and breast enhancements and face lifts and all sorts of elective procedures have risks. Why do you get to weigh in on other's piercings, tattoos, breast enlargements, or whatever? What moral principle is violated by allowing these decisions to be made by adults without your two cents

The only reason trans surgeries are seen as life saving is because they are seen to prevent suicides but little to none of the literature supports that. — Andrew4Handel

So as long as the decision isn't made on the basis of suicide prevention you're OK with it, or does that article mean more than that?

Most of the Iranian transsexuals are and most detransitioned women are lesbians. — Andrew4Handel

That was a really (as in award winning) ridiculous post. Iran forces gay people into sex change operations because I guess they figure that will eliminate homosexuality. So, of fucking course most trans people in Iran are gay. Their fucked up beyond repair government forces them on a gurney and performs involuntary surgery on them. You then use as evidence that most trans are gay the results of Iran's fucked up practice.

I completely disagree. — Andrew4Handel

I gave it my best shot.

What moral principle is violated by allowing these decisions to be made by adults without your two cents — Hanover

I think that cosmetic surgery which is self harm in many cases is a concern because it is self harm. I am not pro suicide or pro self harm.

This young man now has to live the rest of his life without a penis because some generous surgeon cut it off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWv7RNlVjaU&t=312s

A moral principle based on self indulgence (that is how it is nowadays) is narcissism and solipsism writ large and does not promote anyone's welfare other than ones own self ID. It is not a foundation for community/society.

B) Subjectivism about sex

One's sex is constitutively determined by subjective features (one's attitudes etc).
— Bartricks

That is sex stereotypes which is the foundation of transgenderism. It is about conforming to stereotypes to feel comfortable. Many women now wear trousers but if you go on reddit trans sub reddit's most of the men identifying as women wear skirts and say how great it feels.

They don't say anything that reminds me of my three sisters and their experiences as being women. It just comes of as a fetish. — Andrew4Handel

I think I am sympathetic to what you're saying. For like I say, I do think that at present this debate offers a way for a certain kind of sexist to express their sexist attitudes. And this particular kind of sexist is going to endorse position B as a way of doing this. That doesn't mean position B is sexist or that anyone who endorses it is a sexist. But many sexists are going to endorse position B, and be doing so for sexist reasons (rather than apparent epistemic ones).

1. If you're a sexist (of a certain sort), then you'll find position B plausible (if P, then Q)
2. I find position B plausible (Q)
3. Therefore I am a sexist (therefore P)

That's clearly fallacious. So one could defend B and not be a sexist, but many sexists will defend B.

There are different ways to be a sexist, and in saying that position B will appeal to a sexist of a certain sort, I am not suggesting that those who endorse A or C or D are not capable of being sexists too (many will be).

It seems to me, though, that you're endorsing a stronger position: you seem to be saying that position B is essentially sexist. Would that be correct?

I don't personally think subjectivism about sex is the correct view. I think A is correct. My sex is a feature of my body, not of me (for I am not my body). But as such I think sex can be changed. I think only D would result in a 'sex can't be changed' conclusion. (And I think D isn't all that plausible).

You then use as evidence that most trans are gay t — Hanover

Most trans men are gay and most trans women are autogynephilic The problem is the rejection of ones sex due to internalised homophobia..

Can you give me one HEALTHY reason for rejecting ones biological sex?

Undermining women's rights, women's sports, gay erasure and genital mutilation, medication of children is everyone's business I am not selfish enough to think otherwise. — Andrew4Handel

And not clever enoughto phrase the problem in a considered, respectful way.

you seem to be saying that position B is essentially sexist. Would that be correct? — Bartricks

Yes.

The idea that you can become the opposite sex ignores biological reality and embodiment. Women are the main losers because men who have dominated women for millennia can now claim to be women by wearing a dress and lipstick and undermine them and win at their sports and get women of the year awards and invade spaces designed for the protection of women against male violence.

Being a woman is then reduced to the superficial not biological reality.

Science has to assume that some human faculties are accurate., — Andrew4Handel

Science does not rely on anecdotes.

Are you seriously claiming you cannot identify who is male and female. — Andrew4Handel

Yes, I'm seriously claiming I cannot always tell.

The start of categorisation of entities is based on the reliability of the human senses. — Andrew4Handel

Okay, but that does not entail that science has to rely on anecdotes, nor does it suffice to show that anecdotal evidence is scientific. Neither of those things are true.

Science shows and every day experience that only a man and woman can produce a children. — Andrew4Handel

I crossed out the superfluous part. To the best of my knowledge, there's no ethical current technology to produce a human offspring without involving a male and a female, though there are potential unethical technologies. But this is simply factual; there's nothing normative here.

They have yet to create the insane dystopia of trying to give a woman a penis implant and implant a womb in a man. — Andrew4Handel

"insane dystopia" is a political term. As for the science, there's no scientific theory I'm aware of that states that it is impossible to give a woman such a penis. The absolute best you can say is that there's no extant technology to pull this off.

I engaged you over the scientific claims. You keep replying to me, but nowhere are you backing up that there's anything scientific here... you're just trying to pass off your politics as scientific. Here, I don't much care about anything else; there are plenty of folk here who will be happy to politicize with you.

And not clever enough to phrase the problem in a considered, respectful way. — Banno

I don't respect misogyny, child abuse and gay erasure. I am not going to pretend people can change sex to spare someone's feelings just Like I am not going top pretend the moon is made of cheese. I am not going to endorse penis and vagina mutilation. You can do it and be on the wrong side of history whatever...

think that cosmetic surgery which is self harm in many cases is a concern because it is self harm. I am not pro suicide or pro self harm. — Andrew4Handel

If a trans person is happy with the results, it isn't harm.

moral principle based on self indulgence (that is how it is nowadays) is narcissism and solipsism writ large and does not promote anyone's welfare other than ones own self ID. It is not a foundation for community/society. — Andrew4Handel

Again, you've not shown why sexual issues should be treated differently than other forms of self-indulgence, like buying a sports car, getting a face lift, buying designer clothes.

Why do trans people so offend you and epitomize for you self indulgence when their brand of self expression is so relatively rare but others so common?

Can you give me one HEALTHY reason for rejecting ones biological sex? — Andrew4Handel

Since it's in all caps, I suppose it's your critical term. What does it mean and is adherence to it universally decreed or just when it involves sexual issues?

Okay, but that does not entail that science has to rely on anecdotes, — InPitzotl

Being able to identify a male form a female is not an anecdote and if you claim so you are just outright lying about reality. It is insulting to men and women to deny the reality of sexual dimorphism to humour people with dysphoria or gender saboteurs. There is a huge literature on male and female bodies. reproduction, vaginas penises, sperm etc this is not like someone mistaking a bush for a cow in the middle of the night.

CRISPR - Wait a few decades and it will be perfectly possible to switch back and forth easily enough AND produce eggs/sperm.

Either way if woman becomes a man they are still a woman who has become a man. Actions cannot erase the history/experience.

@TheMadFool I’m not inclined to agree that there are different ‘kinds of sex’ as you said above. Neither am I inclined to use other derivatives of terms that are generally created to by someone to make a name for themselves in a certain field of interest. They should either create a completely new term or think carefully about how using the same term in a different manner could muddy the waters and accomplish little more than academic confusion and/or create misunderstanding in the public sphere at large.

That said, there are grey areas and that’s fine. As mentioned above it is more than possible in the not too distant future that people will be able to fully change from one sex to another, and I’m sure some will abscond and turn to surgery instead for various personal reasons.

Defining oneself by any one particular aspect of out being seems a little obsessive to me. Sadly society forces some to have to react against the ‘norm’.

Being able to identify a male form a female is not an anecdote and if you claim so you are just outright lying about reality. — Andrew4Handel

It is by definition an anecdote. I gave you the definition. What part of that definition does not apply?

If a trans person is happy with the results, it isn't harm. — Hanover

But there is little evidence that reassignment surgery causes happiness. It does not end dysphoria. But happiness is not evidence of goodness. There were happy Nazi's. This is emotional blackmail writ large where someone has something happen due to threats of self harm,.

But there is little evidence that reassignment surgery causes happiness. It does not end dysphoria — Andrew4Handel

If this is the case, it will come out eventually. In the meantime there are people who feel great relief from putting down their burden. Leave them be.

In the definitive sense:
anecdotal
1. (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research — InPitzotl

Well you have just found a problem with the notion of science. In what sense is any observation not a personal account?

An anecdote is usually when some uses one experience to generalise. I am not using ONE experience I am using a lifetime of being around men an women.

But there is science as well. For example men are taller on average than woman. Lauren Laverne identifies as female and is much taller than Chase Strangio who identifies as male. The failure to "pass" is due to people innate ability to recognise sex differences.

Leave them be. — frank

Leave the wealthy surgeons to chop of healthy breasts and penises to fund their children's college education? This is a societal issue

This an accurate satire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ_FRsKAJqk

35 thousand women trying to raise funds for mastectomies on "Just giving" and "Go fund me"

Leave the wealthy surgeons to chop of healthy breasts and penises to fund their children's college education? This is a societal issue — Andrew4Handel

You can't stop them.

It is reality denying. It is unscientific. It prioritises peoples mental states over reality. We don't apply this "logic" in many areas of life. — Andrew4Handel

Be that as it may, that's the way things are. Bitch and moan. Gnash your teeth. Repeat after me "Hell in a hand basket," "Why, when I was a boy..." My prediction - this will all die down fairly quickly. It will not longer be fashionable to be transgender. Those who are left will be those with true gender dysphoria. Keep in mind that I'm almost always wrong when I make this kind of prediction.

I'll be satisfied as long as children are protected from making decisions that have serious consequences and are hard to reverse.

What I find problematic is the desire that everyone pretends that a male is a female (or vice versa) and even actually believes they have become a female/male because of self identity.

The equivalent is everyone having to believe I am a genius because I claim I am one. I find this psychologically damaging. Some trans people (maybe most?) will acknowledge they have not changed sex but are living as the sex they feel comfortable with. They will accept claims such as "Trans women are men"

For myself as a gay male I do not need societies affirmation or approval to know what I am. I grew up with religious homophobia and that is probably the main reason I left Christianity. But now society has to change to pander to everyone's self identity and assimilate everyone else's personal beliefs..