According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Causes

"The specific causes of gender dysphoria remain unknown, and treatments targeting the etiology or pathogenesis of gender dysphoria do not exist"

This means the causes could be societal, familial and mental illness and not brain differences or being trapped in the wrong body.

They say prevention is better than cure.

As someone with long term mental health problems I have always believed my problems have been caused by family and society, religion etc. But I have been on medication for ages but this benefits the big pharmaceuticals and it and a lot of therapies blame the individual or his or her brain and not society and family.
So what is being medicalised is dysfunction and the dysfunction is not going away but being multiplied. But the "cures" are highly profitable and do not require anyone else or society to change.

Here's some research you should read,

https://pure.knaw.nl/ws/files/2203335/Burke2016JPsychiatNeurosci.pdf — Benkei

Are you saying that if someone performs like the average male on a mental rotation task that means they are male or have become male after testosterone injections?

"Sex Differences in Mental Rotation Ability Are a Consequence of Procedure and Artificiality of Stimuli"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0120-x

For every study you can find a counter study.

Put in terms of criminality trans women have the same pattern of criminality and behavioural problems as biological males. — Andrew4Handel

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. From the article you linked to, it's also the case that "female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

This is why women are concerned about their safety.

...

May be you think that it is transphobic to simply have a private belief that sex is immutable and binary?

So what about female-to-male transgender people? Should we say that "sex is immutable and binary" and so female-to-male transgender people are women and belong in women's prisons, despite their male pattern regarding violent crime? In which case having a male pattern regarding violent crime isn't a reason to preclude male-to-female transgender people from women's prisons. Or should we say that female-to-male transgender people belong in men's prisons because they have a male pattern regarding violent crime? In which case birth sex isn't a reason to preclude male-to-female transgender people from women's prisons.

I'm saying girls with gender dysphoria are physically different enough from other girls that it's measurable. So the idea it's a delusion seems misplaced. Your study shows that if you change procedure and stimuli, differences between boys and girls disappear. That is in no way contradictory with the study I cited. Girls with gender dysphoria already perform the same as boys without adjusting procedure and stimuli.

I'm saying girls with gender dysphoria are physically different enough from other girls that it's measurable. — Benkei

Based on a study that has not being replicated involving 21 gender dysphoric girls.

There are over 33,000 people on GoFundMe raising funds for top surgery. https://uk.gofundme.com/f/gendercare-fees
How many have these people have participated in this kind of test to assess whether they have "masculine" brain activation.

Psychology and neuroscience has had a replicability crisis where a large percentage of studies were unable to be replicated so it is by no means authoritative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

I have a degree in psychology and you learn that you have to test every study for confounding factors and also sample size is important the smaller the sample size the weaker the findings. On the other hand a qualitative not quantitative study of one person can be valid because of it's depths.

One thing I would have done on a study like you cited is look for differences between non trans identifying gender non conforming women, lesbians and gender dysphoric females. Differences in sexuality may also correlate to brain differences.

Lots of people suffer including myself that does not justify claiming you are the opposite sex or having multiple invasive surgeries and a life time on hormones and other meds.

Why is the only route to eliminating suffering, body modification and making people pretend you are the opposite sex, allowing men to compete against women in sports when they have obvious biological advances. Why the need to groom other people and society because of ones own gender crisis? It is all unreasonable solutions. — Andrew4Handel

It's the same reason you ask some one their name; instead of give them one. You aren't really in a position to say what is justified to alleviate other people's suffering. You treat people like the gender they appear to be all day long. It takes zero effort on your part to allow some else to live their life the way they choose. Have you ever spoken with or known anyone that's transgender? If your only knowledge is the adverse reaction to their personal medical needs, then your over looking quite a bit.

What if I don't approve of your lifestyle? What right do I have to judge it?

I can sort of understand that objection, but I don't think that that's Harry's objection. His objection seems to be that his definition of "woman" is the correct one, and so people who use the word differently are incorrect and even delusional. — Michael

Not that it's the "correct" one, but the consistent, non-sexist one.

Imagine that we are surrounded by dogs and cats. Imagine that I point to a cat and say, "cat". I point to a dog and say "dog". Then I point to another cat and say, "dog" and at another dog and say, "cat". Now, imagine your confusion as you attempt to understand the similarities and differences I am trying to draw your attention to.

My definition of "man" and "woman" is so narrow that it excludes many behaviors that most people associate with men and women, like wearing dresses, make-up and long hair as opposed to wearing pants and not wearing make-up and having short hair. These are not behaviors that are dependent upon one's sex and would therefore be sexist to expect one sex or the other to adhere to those expectations.

Systemic sexism exists as those behavioral expectations that cultures have of each of the sexes. Those expectations are not what makes one a man or a woman. Biology determines what makes one a man or a woman. So when a trans-person declares that they are a man or a woman because they engage in those behaviors that their culture expects of men or women, they are reinforcing the systemic sexism that exists. You can still wear pants and be a woman and wear a dress and be a man.

It's the same reason you ask some one their name; instead of give them one. You aren't really in a position to say what is justified to alleviate other people's suffering. You treat people like the gender they appear to be all day long. It takes zero effort on your part to allow some else to live their life the way they choose. Have you ever spoken with or known anyone that's transgender? If your only knowledge is the adverse reaction to their personal medical needs, then your over looking quite a bit.

What if I don't approve of your lifestyle? What right do I have to judge it? — Cheshire

People are given their name when they are born, and if you want to change it you have to get it approved by a court.

Why does sex/gender get special treatment when it comes to being able to control other's speech? I don't identify as a racist or an idiot, but I am called these names on this forum. Why are we not raising hell to stop everyone from calling people names for which they do not identify with and are offensive? What makes sex/gender so special?

What if I identify as a Dark Lord of the Sith and expect you to address me as "My Master" and get my feelings hurt if you don't comply? Again, what makes sex/gender so special in this regard?

The other side could use the same argument and ask why you are judging them for exercising their right to speak freely.

The Jazz Jennings case presents an interesting paradox. She was affirmed as trans from an early age and put on puberty blockers. But because the blockers halted her puberty she ended up with an underdeveloped penis that could not be turned into a neo/pseudo vagina by the normal procedures so she ended up having several surgeries with painful complications.

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a30631270/jazz-jennings-surgery-complications/

"Doctors had to use a new technique because she started using hormones at such a young age. Since she hadn’t developed enough tissue to construct a vagina, Jazz's doctors used tissue from her stomach lining."

A part from that she has exhibited mental health problems despite affirmation from an early and under a hypnotherapy expressed a concern that her family would have rejected her if she had been gay.

People are given their name when they are born, and if you want to change it you have to get it approved by a court.

Why does sex/gender get special treatment when it comes to being able to control other's speech? — Harry Hindu

You need a court to change your name on legal documents, but you’re free to change your name in everyday life just by telling people that that’s your name. Pretty sure that’s the same with gender.

The specific causes of gender dysphoria remain unknown, and treatments targeting the etiology or pathogenesis of gender dysphoria do not exist" — Andrew4Handel

What they're saying is gender dysphoria (a mental state) is either genetic or environmental or a combination of both. That is, they don't anything about its rooot cause. It also says they can't target the cause because they don't know it, which means there's no specific medical treatment or societal change to administer to resolve that mental state. Those who have it must therefore live with it without any expectation it will subside due to a particularized response.

Based upon that, surgical modification seems reasonable. If we can't fix the underlying mental state, we can alter the body. We do, after all, know what causes a man to look like a man and we can change that. Wiki tells us the mental state is beyond our treatment.

As someone with long term mental health problems I have always believed my problems have been caused by family and society, religion et — Andrew4Handel

Yeah, but who cares what you think? You've already demanded that this discussion be scientific. You've got your anecdotes and I've got mine, but that's not science. It's just blather.

But I have been on medication for ages but this benefits the big pharmaceuticals and it and a lot of therapies blame the individual or his or her brain and not society and family.
So what is being medicalised is dysfunction and the dysfunction is not going away but being multiplied. But the "cures" are highly profitable and do not require anyone else or society to change. — Andrew4Handel

Stay on point and stop telling me about your bumpy life.
We just established from the first quote of yours above that we don't know the etiology of gender dysphoria. Why are you suggesting we require anyone else or society to change to remedy it? Your proposed solutions indicate that you have established gender dysphoria is caused by either (1) choice or (2) environment. Why? It could be genetic but you've arbitrarily dispensed with it and offered up two new therapies ignoring that it could be genetic. Your two propsex solutions are: (1) change your mind therapy or (2) change society therapy.

Assuming these new therapies are in order here (which we've extrapolated as necessary based upon the Wiki article that gender dysphoria is of unknown etiology), how do I go about changing a transsexual's mind or how do I dismantle societal influences?

Yeah, but who cares what you think? You've already demanded that this discussion be scientific. You've got your anecdotes and I've got mine, but that's not science. It's just blather. — Hanover

I was going to use this response elsewhere. However: Transgenderism is self diagnosis and the solutions involve self diagnosis.

I am speculating about the causes of my mental health problems. When causes are unknown you can look to plausible causes found in peoples lives and environments and there are plenty of those.

The reassignment interventions for trans identified people are amongst the most invasive and irreversible with many complications. That is an extreme response to a condition which is self diagnosed and has no known causes.

People are given their name when they are born, and if you want to change it you have to get it approved by a court. — Harry Hindu

Sounds like this started off as a counter-point, and a lightbulb came on. Either way, it's honest commentary.

Why does sex/gender get special treatment when it comes to being able to control other's speech? — Harry Hindu

To me this sounds like false victimization. I don't want to accuse you of that, so if you can explain why it isn't; maybe I'll understand where you are coming from. We both know you have never been controlled in this sense.

I don't identify as a racist or an idiot, but I am called these names on this forum. Why are we not raising hell to stop everyone from calling people names for which they do not identify with and are offensive? — Harry Hindu

Probably, because people interpret the lack of empathy for transgender folk as a willingness to hurt others for some type of self-gratification. Which is morally wrong. To answer your question directly; it's invalid argument because it equates some ones identity as being as significant as an internet insult. Which it isn't.

What if I identify as a Dark Lord of the Sith and expect you to address me as "My Master" and get my feelings hurt if you don't comply? Again, what makes sex/gender so special in this regard? — Harry Hindu

Your repeating a false equiveillance, but using an extreme example. It is a dishonest argument and you know it, because it's ridiculous.

The other side could use the same argument and ask why you are judging them for exercising their right to speak freely. — Harry Hindu

And back to you are the victim here. All I hear is I'm threatened by these people and I want them to suffer so I feel better about myself. I've never felt threaten or burdened by transgender people so I don't understand why you do. To me they seem like an easy target and you have got something driving you to take shots at them. Am I missing something here?

You need a court to change your name on legal documents, but you’re free to change your name in everyday life just by telling people that that’s your name. Pretty sure that’s the same with gender. — Michael

Proper nouns and common nouns are apples and oranges when it comes the ease of changing the nouns that are used to point to things. Common nouns are what we are talking about in this thread and this is addressed in my prior post that was a reply to you, but instead of addressing that, you'd rather grab at the low hanging fruit of another's post? :sad:

Probably, because people interpret the lack of empathy for transgender folk as a willingness to hurt others for some type of self-gratification. Which is morally wrong. To answer your question directly; it's invalid argument because it equates some ones identity as being as significant as an internet insult. Which it isn't. — Cheshire

Casting insults at anyone is exercising a lack of empathy. Your distinction between calling people names for which they aren't doesn't make any sense. Again, your making sex/gender out to be some special case that should be protected against mis-identification. Why?

Your repeating a false equiveillance, but using an extreme example. It is a dishonest argument and you know it, because it's ridiculous. — Cheshire

It was once considered ridiculous to claim the be a woman when you were born a man. That's the point you don't seem to get. What makes identifiying as a Dark Lord of the Sith less plausible than identifying as a woman when you aren't?

And back to you are the victim here. All I hear is I'm threatened by these people and I want them to suffer so I feel better about myself. I've never felt threaten or burdened by transgender people so I don't understand why you do. To me they seem like an easy target and you have got something driving you to take shots at them. Am I missing something here? — Cheshire

I'm not wanting anyone to suffer. Talk about mis-judging people... Look in the mirror.

I'm asking questions that no one is willing to ask. Questioning people's deep-seated assumptions about themselves and the world can often make them feel offended, but their feelings and emotional attachments to their assumptions shouldn't prevent people from asking honest questions.

I'm not wanting anyone to suffer. Talk about mis-judging people... Look in the mirror. — Harry Hindu

Ok, we can agree on that much that wanting others to suffer is morally wrong.

Do you acknowledge that transgender folk alleviate their own suffering by their actions?

Ok, we can agree on that much that wanting others to suffer is morally wrong.

Do you acknowledge that transgender folk alleviate their own suffering by their actions? — Cheshire

There is no evidence that gender reassignment improves mental health. One study claimed that in 2020 but they have to recant their findings due to statistical errors.

I can cite several recent cases of post op trans people committing suicide.

The surgery and hormones cause suffering and shorten life spans.

Have you ever spoken with or known anyone that's transgender? — Cheshire

If you read the thread you would know the answer to that. I have known four trans people they all had mental health problems.

Two of them are autistic like myself and the other two presented as autistic.

None of them passed as the opposite sex. I mentioned a conversation I had with one of them which was incoherent saying gender was a social construct but trying to transition into something they described as invented.

https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ps.201800232

Recent case series, however, suggest that gender dysphoria is separate from psychosis and often predates the onset of psychotic symptoms (11, 12). — Michael

That is conflating delusion and psychosis. There are many deluded people without psychosis.

Do anorexics suffer from psychosis? Should we affirm Anorexics in their belief that they are fat?

You have a degree in psychology, haven't submitted anything but two studies that don't support the point that gender dysphoria is a delusion and yet insists calling gender dysphoria a "delusion" even when confronted with a study that suggest it's not? I maintain that that's inappropriate especially for a psychologist. The best you can say is that the etiology is unclear (which the researchers would confirm because they only say it "suggests" something or other).

There is no evidence that gender reassignment improves mental health. One study claimed that in 2020 but they have to recant their findings due to statistical errors. — Andrew4Handel

If I thought this was a fact it would probably have an effect on my conclusions. Do you mean to say there is no evidence that you personally acknowledge, because there are transgender people who subjectively experience some relief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimozide

"Pimozide is used in its oral preparation in schizophrenia and chronic psychosis (on-label indications in Europe only), Tourette syndrome,[1] and resistant tics (Europe, United States and Canada).

It was also shown to alleviate gender dysphoria.[7]"

You know that's in one person nearly 30 years ago?

↪Andrew4Handel You know that's in one person nearly 30 years ago? — Cheshire

Yes but we don't know how effective this treatment would be in general because it is not being tried.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20209883/

"From time to time in scientific literature there are descriptions of a diagnosis of psychotic disorders in persons previously diagnosed and treated as transsexuals, in whom the transsexual thinking disappears after using antipsychotic agents. Coexistence of transsexualism and schizophrenia causes a lot of doubt--it is observed in scientists opinions but also in the diagnostic criteria of DSM-IV and ICD-10. Moreover, delusions of sex change are probably more frequent than it is thought. It causes, that in some cases the differential diagnosis of psychosis and gender identity disorders may be very difficult. Transsexuals treatment is on one hand connected with expected effects but on the other hand with many serious, often irreversible health consequences (e.g. cardiovascular disease, risk of neoplasma development, infertility, consequences of surgical sex reassignment). That is why the differential diagnosis of transsexualism and schizophrenia should be made carefully and thoughtfully."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20209883/

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/schizort/2014/463757/

Yes but we don't know how effective this treatment would be in general because it is not being tried. — Andrew4Handel

Your reference is a subset of people presenting with schizophrenia. Is this confirmation bias or something else?

This is an interesting case:

https://antiplondon.tumblr.com/post/643086189186908160/we-need-balance-when-it-comes-to-gender-dysphoric

"I am a 48-year-old transgender man. I was thrilled when the medical community told me six years ago that I could change from a woman to a man. I was informed about all the wonderful things that would happen due to medical transition, but all the negatives were glossed over. Since then, I have suffered tremendously, including seven surgeries, a pulmonary embolism, an induced stress heart attack, sepsis, a 17-month recurring infection, 16 rounds of antibiotics, three weeks of daily IV antibiotics, arm reconstructive surgery,lung, heart and bladder damage, insomnia, hallucinations, PTSD, $1 million in medical expenses, and loss of home, car, career and marriage. All this, and yet I cannot sue the surgeon responsible—in part because there is no structured, tested or widely accepted baseline for transgender health care."

"During my post-operation 17 months of sheer survival, I discovered that transgender health care is experimental and that large swaths of the medical industry encourage minors to transition due, at least in part, to fat profit margins."

"The truth was that I didn’t fit in as a dominant, aggressive, assertive lesbian. "

https://antiplondon.tumblr.com/post/643086189186908160/we-need-balance-when-it-comes-to-gender-dysphoric

Since then, I have suffered tremendously, including seven surgeries, a pulmonary embolism, an induced stress heart attack, sepsis, a 17-month recurring infection, 16 rounds of antibiotics, three weeks of daily IV antibiotics, arm reconstructive surgery,lung, heart and bladder damage, insomnia, hallucinations, PTSD, $1 million in medical expenses, and loss of home, car, career and marriage. — Andrew4Handel

Yeah, the American medical system, of fucked.

I mean, when I read it, it just reads like propaganda to me. This part especially:

One night I simply couldn’t take it. I wanted to die. I crawled to bed and had another hallucination. My children’s lives flashed before my eyes, and I saw the devastation my death would cause them. Right then, I made a deal with God, the universe, whatever you call it, that if my life were spared, if I were allowed to be here for my kids, I would help other kids by ensuring people knew what the experimentation of transgender health care really entails. I remember my whimpers: “God, an eye for an eye—in reverse. I will fight with a mother’s passion for others if I can be here for my kids.”

Um, what? Isn't that an oddly specific thing to promise God in the throws of suicidal ideation?

Up to that point I felt sorry for the person, but then it switched gear and just began to read like a pamphlet, making me doubt the veracity of the story since it was the most basic manipulation: sympathetic story as bait, talking points as the hook.

I mean, when I read it, it just reads like propaganda to me. This part especially: — Moliere

The person has a YouTube channel, and twitter account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQWyq7PjhQ&t=30s

https://twitter.com/ScottNewgent

Jess Bradley Claimed "There is no such thing as a "Real woman""

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jess-bradley/trans-women_b_15486434.html

Biology would beg to differ and real women would.

"UK — Manchester, England. In July 2018, Jess (né Josh) Bradley, the first person to be elected Britain’s ‘transgender students’ officer’ by the National Union of Students (NUS), was suspended for allegedly posting explicit photographs on an online blog. Images on the website include an individual flashing while sitting in a train carriage, in a public park and at a bus stop. Additionally, a photograph shows male genitals being exposed in an office close to a curved wooden desk that appears identical to a picture of a work desk posted on Bradley’s Facebook page. The blog was exposed by the Twitter account @xNoMoreSilencex, which tweeted numerous examples of alarming posts attributed to Bradley.


https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-students-officer-suspended-for-allegedly-publishing-pictures-of-male-genitalia-faces-no-additional-sanctions-jess-bradley/

Are those services which have been well known to stop the distribution of propaganda?

Maybe the story is true. Propaganda requires truth to work, after all. I have sympathy for the pain if it's true, but find it hard to feel that sympathy when it's turned into a propaganda model -- it's more of a duty than a feeling.

No, they shouldn't have underwent such horrific events, and yes, it'd be better if trans healthcare was better -- up to and including positive and negative side effects of surgeries. These are reasons to improve healthcare, not wake up to God's calling of warning children and spinning out propaganda for newsweek.