@Noble Dust
To be honest this leads to the notion of extended conciousness. Beyond the body.

Which is something I have experienced in a heightened fashion many many times.

I'm getting a bit confused about your experiences and stances here; so you have astral projected, but you consider it to not be "out of body", but you have had an experience of "extended consciousness beyond the body"? But that was not an astral projection to you?

@Noble Dust
Its all astral projection.
The projection is out of the body but I'm still in the body.

Those who claim out of the body should clarify that they haven't left the body totally,their awareness has just extended and projected themselves in the form of an image. Just like remote viewing.
If you left your body you would die.

Hope that's clearer.

That's clearer, yes, with the caveat that it's not quite discussed that way in the OOBE "community", if you will, at least to my understanding. There is a more explicit belief that "you" are leaving your physical body; so there is a equation of "you" with the non-physical. You're still connected to your physical form, but you are leaving it. I'm not saying I think this is true or not, just making the distinction. But it does open a potential can of worms.

Does your ontology include "disembodied consciousness"? Cartesian mind-body dualism? supernatural (immaterial / nonphysical) intentional agents e.g. ghosts, angels, etc?

Btw, I'd gotten full college credit for the Advanced Placement English I took in high school, friend, and I've been a paralegal & copy editor for decades. It's not that my writing is unclear but that your reading comprehension is rudimentary or that you're just a skimmer (casual reader). You seemed to get the gist of what I wrote after I prompted you to apply yourself to rereading what you'd only skimmed. My advice to you is, for what it's worth, don't reply to anything that you find challenging to read.

@Noble Dust
Yes,I've never really liked the term OOBE for the reasons you have stated.

I think when it gets into a community or organisation that's when I generally go my own way.

But the actual phenomenon is experiencable and there are many reports of people entering the dreams of others or conversing with each other from miles away,either by imagery and voice,or voice or feelings alone.

I think when it gets into a community or organisation that's when I generally go my own way. — Protagoras

I do the same, I'm just exploring what if any evidence there is that they are the same experiences, or related "versions" of the same. This territory starts to get pretty swampy the further in you get; sometimes trying to set definitions only compounds the problem.

@Noble Dust
I've listened to Graham Nicholls on YouTube and munroe and others on YouTube and it seems they are talking about the same thing near enough.

As you said its when definitions and rigid metaphysics sets in that the issue gets a bit opaque.

I just bung out
the nonsense and get on with it to be honest.
Practice and meditation is key.

I've had limited success in StE (I think of it as DMN suppression) via meditation and would try psychedelics if it ever becomes less difficult to access. Psilocybin seems like it might be on the road to limited legalization.

You mention mindset & setting, and I know that's important from what I've learned of psychedelics. Did you have guided trips or otherwise try to properly set the stage?

My advice to you is, for what it's worth, don't reply to anything that you find challenging to read. — 180 Proof

Perhaps you deliberately write in a less accessible fashion to help screen the riffraff. Usually works in my case. :sweat:

As you said its when definitions and rigid metaphysics sets in that the issue gets a bit opaque. — Protagoras

At the same time though, I'm not sure how this is avoidable. We each have a metaphysical lens through which we view these experiences.

I'd be curious to hear details on your experiences, but recognize it's personal, so no pressure.

@Noble Dust
One can just practice and experience the phenomenon,and vocalise the metaphysics later.

What kind of details are you interested in, the practical preparation or the actual experience?

One can just practice and experience the phenomenon,and vocalise the metaphysics later. — Protagoras

I wonder if one's pre-existing metaphysics will influence the subjective experience itself, though.

What kind of details are you interested in, the practical preparation or the actual experience? — Protagoras

Both, but more so the actual experience.

@Noble Dust
I think if you just focus and have faith in your ability to project that will be enough. Unless you have some metaphysics or beliefs you are bringing to the table?

The practice is a combination of intense desire to communicate through projection and consistent effort.

You can visualise a task or verbalise a task or even just focus on breathing to accomplish a task. The task being projecting to a certain person or place.

The experience Is brilliant,communicating with a loved one from a distance is great.

It's like dreaming of something you really like,but doing it fully awake and by your will.

One caveat,is that not every time will be perfect,it takes practice. And sometimes you might have unpleasant experiences,even a little frightening.

Perhaps you deliberately write in a less accessible fashion to help screen the riffraff. Usually works in my case. :sweat: — praxis

:up: Yeeeees.

Did you have guided trips or otherwise try to properly set the stage?

Not for my first year or two indulging (experimenting), then I began guiding others as we tripped. That lasted for a while until I returned to solo tripping. By then, in my last couple of years of psychoactive exploration, I think I'd mastered 'mindset and setting' which made my trips less frequent though higher-deeper and more reliably so.

I think if you just focus and have faith in your ability to project that will be enough. Unless you have some metaphysics or beliefs you are bringing to the table? — Protagoras

I'm suggesting that we all do automatically.

@Noble Dust
Well,the prime thing is you must be determined enough to believe and practice with intense desire.

Only if your metaphysics disbelieves in the possibility of projection could there be a problem.

So you deliberately write in an obfuscating manner and when asked to clarify, demand to be re-read in order to screen out people who demand better writing? :rofl:

Well,the prime thing is you must be determined enough to believe and practice with intense desire. — Protagoras

Right, and so belief (which includes a metaphysic?) seems to be a pre-requisite, at least to me.

@Noble Dust
Well the belief that you can make it happen is all that is needed. Are you regarding belief as a metaphysics?

No, sorry, I'm just suggesting that your beliefs in general (including your metaphysical beliefs) could potentially influence the experience itself. I've read reports of OOBEs that suggest this; I'm not saying that I'm predisposed to agreeing with that, or that I believe it myself.

But yes, it does seem like a belief in being able to do it is needed, I agree there. Although in my case, I had sleep paralysis long before I had any belief about my ability to experience consciousness outside the body.

@Noble Dust

Does your ontology include "disembodied consciousness"? Cartesian mind-body dualism? supernatural (immaterial / nonphysical) intentional agents e.g. ghosts, angels, etc? — 180 Proof

@Noble Dust
I have heard of people with religious beliefs opposed to projection who experienced these things when in a very emotional situation, but not being able to experience these things as a practice.

Sleep paralysis is a very emotional experience and triggered due to trauma,sometimes from childhood.

In some situations belief matters not. But for sustained practice it does.

A lot of religious or materialistic atheists can't do this at will because of limiting beliefs.
Belief is key.

I assume in good faith you didn't add that addendum you quote here to your post above in order to make it look like I ignored it. :wink: (although for clarity, you could have just asked it as a new question, rather than quoting your own edit of your own post).

As to your questions, if you re-read my exchange with Protagoras, you might get a sense. :razz:

So you deliberately write in an obfuscating manner and when asked to clarify, demand to be re-read in order to screen out people who demand better writing? :rofl: — Noble Dust

I don't think that obfuscating is a fair characterization. A more accurate general characterization would be something like dense.

I agree with you.

If dense is a better word, I would amend it to "needlessly dense".

I have definitely had what appeared to be out of body experiences on a number of occasions, most often on the borderline of sleep. I can remember one in which I was flying around the room, and knowing that my body is lying on the bed.

The philosophy question which remains for me is whether such states are really what they appear to be, and supporting the idea of dualism, or whether they are illusory? I am aware that states of this are more likely to occur for me if I am under a lot of stress, have a raised temperature, or have not had much to eat and sleep.

If I recall correctly, in the book How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, in regards to mindset it’s important to be ‘open’, no matter how unpleasant or terrifying the trip may turn. Is that your experience or do you have any other tips?

I think that the idea of of hallucinogenic trips is important. One of my 2 LSD trips included me looking into the mirror and seeing the wall around me and the radiator. I was simply not there at all which lead me to think that I was out of my body

Huxley describes psychedelic experience with reference to Bergson's idea of 'mind as a reducing valve' and this is one possible interpretation, but I am sure that it is not absolute, and so many questions arise in connection to the way we think about the mind, in terms of altered states of consciousness.

Yes, being open as much as you're able is a key. The other key is to trip in an asshole-free space while doing something creative & playful. More than that I can't say ... since it's been about three decades since my last trip.