Oh whatever. Rule over me — dimosthenis9

i dont need your permission

i only need the permission of the universe

Universe bless you then.

Universe bless you then. — dimosthenis9

whatever can be accomplished is what the universe allows

whatever you have to do to make that accomplishment is the price the universe demands

these are the only real rules that exist

But at the end is something else that can be done in engineering except simplification (despite its faults of course)? According to science so far aren't these models the best (or less bad at least as to put it that way) way as to build things?? Of course they need improvement but I guess engineering at the past was much worse than nowadays. I guess many more disastrous projects occurred at the past. But isn't that natural since human knowledge gets bigger? Maybe in future these oversimplified models might get much better also. — dimosthenis9

I love engineering and science. My whole family are engineers. I have an engineer's personality. I think like an engineer. I'm not putting it down, I'm just trying to be aware of it's limitations. The way to deal with engineering is to use it in it's appropriate role and not to use it when it's not appropriate. Which is where this whole discussion started.

So same with Logic, seems Engineering also has to deal with a real Chaotic environment and we demand the best possible solution from it. As we demand from Logic the best possible solution in chaotic human societies and chaotic existential problems that a person faces on his own also. Shouldn't we be a little soft both in engineering models and Logic also? Recognize the hardships they have to deal with. — dimosthenis9

I was never arguing against logic in the kind of role you are describing. I have only been saying it's not the only way and it's not the best way for me. There is not just one way and not just one good way.

I have an engineer's personality — T Clark

learn the MBTI

learn the MBTI — MikeListeral

Before I became an engineer, I was a psychology major. I don't think the Myers-Briggs is very useful. It takes what is basically an engineering approach to personal differences. It takes an "objective" measurement and then gives the person a classification. That's just the kind of simplification I was talking about as a limitation for engineering and a potential source of problems.

That's just the kind of simplification — T Clark

you dont have to limit yourself to the mbti only

there is also the BIG 5

The way to deal with engineering is to use it in it's appropriate role and not to use it when it's not appropriate. — T Clark

Pure Logic.

I was never arguing against logic in the kind of role you are describing. I have only been saying it's not the only way and it's not the best way for me. There is not just one way and not just one good way. — T Clark

Fair enough.I think I got the main point of your side. Interesting discussion.

Logic doesn't require intelligence what so ever . i have seen this in many situations in life

I have seen retarded people make logical choices and i have seen people with more degrees than a thermometer make the most illogical head up ass decisions you've ever seen

That's what I have noticed too and made me criticize my original belief that Logic is a matter of intelligence. But as you said this belief started to fade from actual events that I was noticing around me. So if not intelligence what the fuck you think is the main obstacle that make humans so hard to follow Logic??

lol that is one of the hardest questions to find the answer to I'm my philosophical quest lol the ability to be a dumbass has no limits and will overcome even the greatest on minds on occasion.

I feel that it's not something that has 1 simple answer but many different reasons

From what I've seen when a person is logical it seems to be in a situation of importance BUT without much attachment to the specific situation which allows them to have a clear mind to the implement logic

And in scenarios where I've seen a very smart person be a dumbass there is usually some form of attachment to the situation usually in the form of information that's taboo or just in general they don't want others to know or some root desire causing them to toss logic to the side in almost a schizophrenic desperate attempt at obtaining an end result and in doing so they overlook all the logic of the situation because they just want it in result and this causes them to be a complete illogical dumbass in the moment

The more I think about it the more I can't help but lean towards the idea that logic is just a temporal social thing and not a fundamental fact of reality and that it could be completely bipolar different a thousand years from now than it is now because it's only grounded in society in the time that you live in

a temporal social thing and not a fundamental fact of reality and that it could be completely bipolar different a thousand years from now than it is now because it's only grounded in society in the time that you live in — MAYAEL

Why you think that it's a social thing? For me Logic follows human knowledge (science etc). I also believe that Logic is transforming and it will be different for sure in thousand years as you mentioned but cause of human knowledge would be different. And not cause of social matters.

And in scenarios where I've seen a very smart person be a dumbass there is usually some form of attachment to the situation usually in the form of information that's taboo or just in general they don't want others to know or some root desire causing them to toss logic to the side in almost a schizophrenic desperate attempt at obtaining an end result a — MAYAEL

So it seems that different reasons in each situation makes people to lose their connection with Logic.
I would dare to distinguish Logic in 2 forms

1. Practical Logic (if I can name it that way). Meaning Logic about things in everyday life. Like for example when you have a problem at work or at home and you try to find the best solution. Let's say that I lost my keys and I can't get in my house. The Logical thing to do is to call an expert to open the door for me and not break the door as to get in. In such everyday problems seems that Logic depends on Intelligence indeed. And that seems to be the biggest obstacle.

2. Life Logic. Meaning the way someone live his life (beliefs, life decisions, relations with others etc). And in that form of Logic seems that intelligence doesn't play the biggest role. If someone for example has a drug or alcohol problem. He might understands how bad is for him (logic) but he just can't stop it (put logic in practice). In that kind of cases and others too (like racism) the biggest obstacle seems to be psychological factors, maybe genetic factors too. But for me in such cases(racism) an important role plays that these people don't work with themselves at all. They don't dare to give the fight with themselves. They are too scared to doubt what they have already known (from the families, societies etc). They prefer to shit Logic as to avoid face their own selves! They just grab on their beliefs despite how illogical or idiotic they might be cause their whole world would "collapse" otherwise.

Lots of racketeers make money out of the dumbed down so-called "MBTI". In the real one which I've done, your reading of yourself is subjective and you can discern your development over time if you wish.

Importantly it flags up what auxiliaries you have potential to further excel in. For example, a general who talks to the troops outside the tent with the subaltern inside attending to detail, is like an extrovert that doesn't forget his inner strengths. While a general inside the tent pondering deeply while the adjutant explains is like the introvert that's good at communicating and interacting. By the time they are 60, barring mania, you can't tell extroverts and introverts much apart.

The reason for eight or more poles is that they are not opposed. Furthermore one can be fairly near the middle. For example I was INTP but some of those were nearly middle. (The question procedure prevents one "making" any particular result.

Intuitive and analytic don't conflict and go together terrific. Gary Klein's The power of intuition (2003) is about this.

I could have been a mathematician, engineer or chemist (but you have to watch dodgy contracts that get foisted on you). I got steered out of the requisite classes, not entirely because I'm fumbly. My forebears were tailors, engineers' pattern makers, carvers, labourers, musicians: tectonic and aesthetic. I'm a spatial thinker. I've had the opportunity to always stay near words.

To me "logic" means wider reason. A bumptious subset have elevated inapplicable gobbledygook above reason instead of making it be (if possible) at the service of wider reason and the wider public: our challenge to them is, "we want in".

The premise of reason is always to accept what "is" and not claim to dumb it down (that is how Newton did things). All inference should be in degrees. All hypotheses, and ideas towards hypotheses, should be kept on the table indefinitely but provisionally prioritised and re-prioritised. This is a fresh task from each individual and isn't meant to be uniform across society.

Facing responsibilities takes thoughtfulness. A thing most destructive of humanity is telling people thinking is not for them.

The position at 1 is to pause for thought to figure out how many possibilities there are and prioritise them for examination or trial.
The position at 2 is to revalue. Most of us had such traumatic schooling (or outlook in the family background). It took me 30 years to overcome shame and my schooling and family are fairly lucky. After that one can proceed as 1.
Bad thinking in families or social classes isn't in genes, it gets passed on as memes, which hits us in our habitus (which Bourdieu deals with).

Good one!

The position at 1 is to pause for thought — Fine Doubter

At the end that seems to scare the most people. To "pause for thought" cause then we have to face our thought - self. Not many are brave enough. That's why many prefer to keep "running" during the day 24h non stop.

Bad thinking in families or social classes isn't in genes — Fine Doubter

So that's good news for humanity. I tend to believe the same. Genes play sure some kind role but it might not be the most crucial one.

It took me 30 years to overcome shame and my schooling and family are fairly lucky. — Fine Doubter

For most people a whole lifetime isn't enough. The only what matters is that you got there eventually.

Genes serve one purpose only. The organism they are in. The main view nowadays is the other way round. That we are vessels serving the selfish genes (Dawkins and the likes, which are practically all biologists and other people).

[r

>>>Why you think that it's a social thing? For me Logic follows human knowledge (science etc). I also believe that Logic is transforming and it will be different for sure in thousand years as you mentioned but cause of human knowledge would be different. And not cause of social matters<<<

I consider that a social thing




>>>1. Practical Logic (if I can name it that way). Meaning Logic about things in everyday life. Like for example when you have a problem at work or at home and you try to find the best solution. Let's say that I lost my keys and I can't get in my house. The Logical thing to do is to call an expert to open the door for me and not break the door as to get in. In such everyday problems seems that Logic depends on Intelligence indeed. And that seems to be the biggest obstacle.<<<

although I can definitely see your point and I want to lean towards the green with that point I have to disagree because I'll though to me and you that both seems like very obvious and logical scenario we have to keep in mind that there are people like for instance in the rainforest that have zero Western education so by Western standpoint they are not intelligent and yet they have figured out a way to survive in the rainforest which is a very hard place to find nutrients and clean water despite its name

and some of these Contraptions they can make for hunting can be quite impressive and so in their own way they show high intelligence and yet

will turn around and have a celebration where all the virgin men one that one sleep with a virgin woman and then the last one if the sacrifice as two massive pillars fall down crushing both of them in celebration

which they voluntarily chose to die for and then our boiled and eaten as the celebration dinner and all because they didn't have an individual identity but it was more of a hive mind identity where you thought of yourself as the tribe and not the individual you which we find morbid and absolutely ridiculous in Western Society

and so intelligence was paired with Logic for survival reasons and yet went out the window at Mach 4 when judged by our Western version of logic

>>>2. Life Logic. Meaning the way someone live his life (beliefs, life decisions, relations with others etc). And in that form of Logic seems that intelligence doesn't play the biggest role. If someone for example has a drug or alcohol problem. He might understands how bad is for him (logic) but he just can't stop it (put logic in practice). In that kind of cases and others too (like racism) the biggest obstacle seems to be psychological factors, maybe genetic factors too. But for me in such cases(racism) an important role plays that these people don't work with themselves at all. They don't dare to give the fight with themselves. They are too scared to doubt what they have already known (from the families, societies etc). They prefer to shit Logic as to avoid face their own selves! They just grab on their beliefs despite how illogical or idiotic they might be cause their whole world would "collapse" otherwise.<<<

there is quite an interesting situation with a human being where we can know damn well what we need to do and yet keep shooting ourselves in the foot because the human body seems to be separate from the mind yet not and because of this can be trained to do something the mind doesn't want to do and the only criteria to train it is repetition so once you make the body repeat something enough times it gets addicted to it and then it almost doesn't matter what the brain says and it requires somebody with extremely strong willpower to redirect the body and stop doing these self-damaging things..

and I would have to agree with you people have shown to be very lazy minded and quite frankly evil in my philosophical Endeavor to understand myself and reality

because I only want to know what's the truth or the closest thing to it cuz it is opinion-based but I very very very rarely come across somebody it actually holds the same goal in mind I usually am disappointed as I watch people turn a blind eye to the most horrific perspectives just so they won't have to have anxiety for have to re contemplate and form an opinion on something and it's White Eagle to be perfectly honest
or at least to me it is.

we have to keep in mind that there are people like for instance in the rainforest that have zero Western education so by Western standpoint they are not intelligent and yet they have figured out a way to survive in the rainforest which is a very hard place to find nutrients and clean water despite its name — MAYAEL

I get what you mean, so I have to clarify that I don't consider "western logic" better than others.
Of course Logic depends also from the environment someone grew up and the things that he has experienced. For example human Logic wasn't the same in Homo sapiens as it is now. Logic, for me, follows human knowledge and science.And according to them it adjusts and transforms.

But even at the rainforest tribes that you mention. Won't there be any "Rainforest men" who would be more intelligent than others and in that way to practice their Logic better than others? For example finding more logical solutions as to find clean water more easily or hunt better or build better shelters etc. Imo even to their kind of Logic intelligence plays some role.

it requires somebody with extremely strong willpower to redirect the body and stop doing these self-damaging things — MAYAEL

I think you mentioned the key phrase here "strong willpower". It is extremely difficult I agree. But it can be done. Mind can rule over body in such issues. But it takes a hell of a fight for that!

I very very very rarely come across somebody it actually holds the same goal in mind I usually am disappointed as I watch people turn a blind eye to the most horrific perspectives just so they won't have to have anxiety for have to re contemplate and form an opinion on something — MAYAEL

I used to be disappointed also as you say. But the past years I am much more lenient with people. Human creatures are called to deal with a total chaos everywhere(societies, families, psychological matters, stereotypes etc etc) and as I mentioned it is a huge fight and the most difficult one.To fight with yourself and to challenge your own beliefs. I can understand why someone would want to avoid it. Even if I don't agree with that, still I can understand it.

Just read the OP. Is the whole thing a creepy racist dog whistle? It's doing the weird 'I write like the bible' random capital letters thing.

Is the whole thing a creepy racist dog whistle? — Cheshire

No it isn't. Can't really see how someone would end up in such a conclusion.