Hatred is certainly better organised - we can thank social media for that one. — Tom Storm

Hmmm. Depends. A lot more death threats. Far fewer actual deaths.

It's a truism to say that people's bad behaviour is because of their (lack of good) ethics. But I agree, consideration and reciprocity should be fostered.

I think we need to look principally to the present problem and future solutions more than picking a past philosophy though. We need to understand what makes people antisocial. It's not any more inherent than what makes people social. My question recently was: can we have an egalitarian, reciprocal but delayed-return society? A good follow up to that would intersect with your thread: how do we build an egalitarian, reciprocal society starting from _where we are now_? Infrastructure and culture, not dead men. And, yes, education is a huge part of both, but I don't think brainwashing kids with a particular philosophy is warranted. Rather, look to what _promotes_ the already present capacity for altruism in children.

And if Confucius and Chinese philosophy have failed to promote ethical behavior in China, why should we expect them to do so in the West? — Apollodorus

This is a good question indeed. It made me feel a feeling dilemma. If in China doesn’t work Taoism why I should believe it as a West citizen? It shook my head.
Despite the fact it could have their own debilities I still believe in Tao and Confucius as in Greek philosophy. As a globe with many paradigms, and then just probably the situation can change.

For example, what we are sharing both you and me is beautiful because we are debating different points of views without aggressive vocabulary. This is due to how we have a good development in philosophy and knowledge. Why not develop this practice as a normal issue?

I think we need to look principally to the present problem and future solutions more than picking a past philosophy though. — Kenosha Kid

I understand your point but I think Greek philosophy or Taoism is not old because their principles are everywhere and I guess we can grew our future up starting in this area. We should never forget these old theories

.

We need to understand what makes people antisocial. — Kenosha Kid

Probably but being antisocial not necessarily drive us on being violent or having aggressive attitude. To be honest with you, I consider myself as antisocial but this doesn’t cause on me have the feeling or ambition to fight against another one or being involved in a riot...

We have to develop a better educational system and teach how bad the violence is. — javi2541997

Why would you assume children do not already know?

We should never forget these old theories — javi2541997

Agreed, but that's no reason to indoctrinate children with them. (There may be better reasons to do just that.)

Probably but being antisocial not necessarily drive us on being violent or having aggressive attitude. To be honest with you, I consider myself as antisocial but this doesn’t cause on me have the feeling or ambition to fight against another one or being involved in a riot... — javi2541997

By social here, I mean empathetic, altruistic, egalitarian.

Confucius — Apollodorus

Yes there's violence in China but we have fantastic roads. — Confucius

Why would you assume children do not already know? — Isaac

Because children tend to be innocent in these issues and complex aspects. Sometimes they are linving/making violence when they don't truly know what they are doing.
There are cases where children live domestic violence but they don't get the situation until they become older.

Agreed, but that's no reason to indoctrinate children with them. (There may be better reasons to do just that.) — Kenosha Kid

I promise I laughed :rofl: because my intention is not about indoctrinate them but just assure these ideas or principles are clearly taught in society because I feel they are like forgotten or something.

Ah okay, so you don't want children taught a particular ethics, rather taught _about_ that ethics as part of a broader education? That seems reasonable, I'd prefer a less vocational, more philosophical education system too (a big part of that would be critical thinking). I just don't see a correlation between teaching children about Confucius and children growing to be more social (not sociable or socialist or however you took the term).

Yes! Exactly, because only in this way I guess it could be more understood (ethics and being a good citizen) in those young minds.
I am perceiving that Confucius or Taoism is not conceived good enough among the members. What I was trying to say is that probably teaching kids something so exotic as "Tao Te Ching" could impact positively in them. But forget it, I am dreaming a lot :death:

I've nothing particularly against it, but I'm just wary of the instinct to reach for an old book when societal problems occur. As I said, I'm aligned with you on education being put to better use, to reverse away from this notion of making children good workers and focusing on making them good, well-rounded humans.

But let's say you have some kid whose father is a MAGA-maniac who hates black people, whose older brother would actually beat him up for not joining in a violent racist assault, and who lives on an estate where every rare black family unlucky enough to wind up there has been demonised and persecuted... Is a lack of Taoism in this kid's life really the thing pushing him toward following a similar path to his father, brother and neighbours?

children tend to be innocent in these issues and complex aspects. Sometimes they are linving/making violence when they don't truly know what they are doing.
There are cases where children live domestic violence but they don't get the situation until they become older. — javi2541997

I don't really understand what you're suggesting. That we tell children that domestic violence exists? What do you think that will achieve? What does them 'getting' the situation entail?

Is a lack of Taoism in this kid's life really the thing pushing him toward following a similar path to his father, brother and neighbours? — Kenosha Kid

What a good example. First of all, I think this child has bad luck because he is raised in a very backwards house. We have to do something with this kid because is our duty.
Probably Taoism will not be so effective but who knows? What if we can expand his point of view?
Due to his racist father the kid never heard about Asian culture, so we can be there and help to understand the world is bigger than hate.

Yes, I guess it is positive to teach them what violence is without taboos. The opposite would make them blind. So if we take this from the roots we can avoid conflict situations in the future.
It is not the right way when we see a kid suffering of domestic violence and then say the usual: "let's put him in a psychologist"

We have to develop a better educational system and teach how bad the violence is. I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others. For this reason, it is time to focus on Ethics and provide more empathy along our relationships. — javi2541997

As long as we live in a capitalist society, the above is a lost cause.

Yes, I guess it is positive to teach them what violence is without taboos. — javi2541997

I can't see how you think children don't know what violence is.

So if we take this from the roots we can avoid conflict situations in the future. — javi2541997

There's two aspects to this - there's the fact about what violence is and then there's not wanting to do it to someone - you seem to be promoting the rather heterodox theory that it's the former not the latter that's the problem.

It is not the right way when we see a kid suffering of domestic violence and then say the usual: "let's put him in a psychologist" — javi2541997

Why should children not get psychological help? It seems odd to suggest that teachers can intervene in a helpful way but psychologists can't. What is it about a teacher talking to children you think capable of bringing about psychological change that a psychologist talking to children can't do. Is there some magic teachers learn?

As long as we live in a capitalist society, the above is a lost cause. — baker

It is not lost if we believe in it. Probably in a capitalist Era is difficult but we can work together and establish some moral and ethical principles.

It is not lost if we believe in it. Probably in a capitalist Era is difficult but we can work together and establish some moral and ethical principles. — javi2541997

But on the grounds of what? It serves the purposes of capitalism if people are willing to be violent toward eachother, if they are competitive in a life and death manner.

I can't see how you think children don't know what violence is. — Isaac

They can know it but in a very simple way... It is not the same when you are more mature and can understand it more deeply.

you seem to be promoting the rather heterodox theory that it's the former not the latter that's the problem. — Isaac

Understandable. So what do you think is the solution to this and why I am seeing it bad?

Why should children not get psychological help? — Isaac

I’m not saying they do not need psychological help but avoid it because somehow this tool is still stigmatized in our society... so I don’t know what can be worse the issue or the solution.

But on the grounds of what? — baker

On grounds that, at least, people do not kill or harm each other. Because what are you saying is a vicious of competitiveness inside the money makers. But it is so different when this attitude attack the integrity of citizens.

I tired reading your attachment (lots of interesting ideas) - for me it requires editing and cutting so that it is making clear statements or proposing a clear argument. There's just way too much material (and much of it seems random) on the page, with not enough organisation to make sense of it all. I would need a few clear headings, and less quotes and for the lines of text to be less dense - no more than 15-18 words per line - not 35. I can't tell from this what you are trying to achieve.

We have capitalism. End of story.

Thanks for the feedback Tom and also for debating with me in this thread I think it was interesting :up:

I wish the story ends good Baker... :flower:

First of all, I think this child has bad luck because he is raised in a very backwards house. We have to do something with this kid because is our duty. — javi2541997

Agreed, but not uncommonly bad. The kind of hate and violence we both despise has a strong (I'd argue dominant) culturally-propagated aspect. I'm not sure what the answer is to that beyond cultivating a culture in which such hate is seen as shameful and low, the way, say, communism is seen in America. If teaching Taoism might help with that, great, but it's no panacea imo. Ultimately you're expecting a very dead guy in a book to hold more sway than a father, a brother, a gang, or a neighborhood.

Exposure to more considered ideas is helpful, but considered ideas often don't have the same kind of influence on children that deranged, paranoid, hateful ideas to. Unrelated to hate and violence, but my stepson's father is somewhat mentally unstable and is truly down the vaccination conspiracy theory rabbit hole. My stepson is a very intelligent lad, very good at school, but his father has got him parroting some of this deranged crap. What I find is that reasoning doesn't help very much. That which is learned without reason cannot be defeated by reason. Or something. I can't be bothered checking the quote.

Point being, hateful and violent behaviour is typically associated with irrational notions that are immune to reason, empirical counter-evidence, etc., rather are mediated by other things like rhetoric, lies, force of opinion, peer pressure and fear of contradiction. I'd be more optimistic about teachers identifying antisocial behaviour in children and intervening than teaching them about better ethics and hoping to convert a few. Although I don't have much faith in that either.

How could it possibly end well??

Exposure to more considered ideas is helpful, but considered ideas often don't have the same kind of influence on children that deranged, paranoid, hateful ideas to. — Kenosha Kid

True. This is why is difficult to pursue because every individual is special and their mind is complex. Nevertheless, I guess we both are agree with the fact that we should not leave these kind of kids “ flowing around” with suck negative backgrounds.
I do not know yet which could be the right phenomenon to increase more consciousness about this issue. I mentioned Taoism previously but you all are right that it sounds so doctrinaire.
It is sad when these kind of kids end up harming others. Here the State failed both.

Point being, hateful and violent behaviour is typically associated with irrational notions that are immune to reason, empirical counter-evidence, etc. — Kenosha Kid

Good one :up: developing into educational classes the abilities of having better notions and knowledge could be helpful too. It is difficult to achieve and this is why some people can be pessimistic.

Because I believe so... You would think I am a dreamer or a rookie in basics economics :death:

They can know it but in a very simple way... It is not the same when you are more mature and can understand it more deeply. — javi2541997

Interesting. So what do you think is going on in the child's psyche? They see violence, understand it in their simple way, but when a teacher explains it to them, they understand it in a deeper way. If they were capable of understanding it in this deeper way (no insurmountable cognitive barrier), then why didn't they understand it in the deep way first? I'm trying to draw out exactly what it is the teacher knows that the child doesn't, but which can be taught, and how the teacher came to know it.

So what do you think is the solution to this and why I am seeing it bad? — javi2541997

I don't think it's radically complicated. Children are brought up to think so little of themselves that they'll unquestioningly follow the first role model who shows any sign of real power. The media know this and so products which appeal to that sell better than those which don't. The simplest (and least troublesome) representation of power is violent domination. So role models have this type of power and children emulate it. I mean, there's a lot more to it than that - whole books have been written on this stuff - but that's a potted summary.

The ethics class should be prepared as a gift. — javi2541997

You might like this cartoon:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/574421