What can replace God??

dimosthenis9

Facts:
1. I m an atheist, who has huge respect for the ones who believe in any kind of God. I m kind of "envy" them also. Cause at least (even with wrong way, imo of course) they have answered to their existential questions! And I haven't. Not at all.

2. The vast majority of people worldwide believe in God. Any kind of God, i don't care even if that is "Yellow Pigs" or "Holly Birds".
So these people "take" the "proper rules" about ethics and being good in general to their societies from their God. Cause they think they will get some kind of after death Reward for being good.

3. Despite all these religions and Gods, we STILL face a huge chaos in societies. An enormous one! Many atheists accuse religions for that mess and I was always wondering "aren't people behind religions?! Wtf?. Are these religions alien manufactured to earth?! Aren't people who maintain them, and still want them in their lives?Accuse people! "

Questions:

1. So are we sure that world would be a better place without religions?! At the intellectual level that most people are worldwide? (And when I say intellectual, I don't mean only intelligence but also self cultivation in general.The humanity average mind level, if that helps you to understand more how I mean it)

If you tell all these people "hey! you only have this life and that's it man! You become dust and earth afterwards. No heaven, no afterlife, no fucking virgins and drinking cocktails. No REWARD in general for being a good guy in your life.
Are we sure that this won't bring bigger chaos to societies?? I strongly strongly doubt.
So for me religions are a "necessary" human invention. We still need them.

2.If you gonna make people stop believing in religions then WHAT could replace God? How can you convince people to be "good" ???

My only long guess is Logic. That vast majority of people worldwide reach to a high average intellectual level, as to think Logically and realize that acting "good" when you live in a society is firstly for your own benefit!

But first I doubt that vast majority of people will ever come to that level and second even if they do, thinking Logically maybe isn't enough at the end at all for convincing someone to be "good".
So what else could take God's role to "give" the Ethics that people should follow??

Daniel

Drugs.

dimosthenis9

↪Daniel

You say it for fun. But I have also considered that possibility also.

Thinking

money

Daniel

↪dimosthenis9

Yeah that was just for fun. Don't do drugs!

dimosthenis9

↪Daniel

Too late.

dimosthenis9

↪Thinking

Can't see how can happen. Seems that money is one of the main reasons that chaos would be greater in societies without God. Not a part of the solution.

Jack Cummins

↪dimosthenis9

I think that we have to go behind the facade of what was offered by religion and look to the possibilities of imagination. It is not simply about overthrowing religion, but finding connections with the deepest aspects of ourselves, including the numinous and the essential values for living.

Tom Storm

If you gonna make people stop believing in religions then WHAT could replace God? How can you convince people to be "good" ??? — dimosthenis9

What makes you think religions or god beliefs make people behave morally? I have worked with prisoners for 30 plus years. Many of them have believed in God. This does not prevent them from being violent, from stealing, lying, murdering, dealing drugs, abandoning their children... Name the crime; a religious person is likely to have done it. Prisons are full of men and women who believe in God.

If people are going to do good the source of this transcends any belief in God. Just consult the Taliban.

The other problem with a belief in God is that theists have no moral foundation. What they think is good or bad depends on their personal preferences. Or how they interpret a given holy book. Or what their subjective interpretation on God's will might be.

Just consider issues like gay rights, the role of women, drug policy, capital punishment, euthanasia - these moral issues do not unite theists. They are all over the place when it comes to deciding upon such moral questions because in the end they have to decide what they think God wants. No one knows the answer to this so we have religions that totally disagree with each the about morality. People still have to decide for themselves regardless of theism.

dimosthenis9

What makes you think religions or god beliefs make people behave morally? — Tom Storm

I don't. I just think in many people helps. Cause of the "fear" of God punishment, or the "reward" they try to act good. Even not achieving it always. But at no point of my post I mentioned that as someone to act moral has to believe in God.

The other problem with a belief in God is that theists have no moral foundation — Tom Storm

And atheists have??

Just consult the Taliban. — Tom Storm

Taliban are evil cause of religion? They are evil cause they choose to be. Religion is their cover and their "excuse" as to act like that. There are millions other islamists that don't "translate" the Korani the shitty way they do. Evil person choose to be evil inside him allready.Its not the religion which makes him evil. I just say that without religions evil people might be even more.

Just consider issues like gay rights, the role of women, drug policy, capital punishment, euthanasia - these moral issues do not unite theists — Tom Storm

And unite atheists?

Many of them have believed in God. This does not prevent them from being violent, from stealing, lying, murdering, dealing drugs, abandoning their children... Name the crime; a religious person is likely to have done it. — Tom Storm

I don't doubt at all about your experience or what you mention here. But it is not what I claimed.

Valentinus

↪Jack Cummins

Well said. the notions of a common good and the pursuit of happiness do not appear or disappear if one supposes or denies divine agency.

Apollodorus

So are we sure that world would be a better place without religions?! — dimosthenis9

I think it is perfectly possible to construct a moral system without religious beliefs. Upbringing, education, and a legal system would be quite adequate to enforce proper conduct.

However, I think the evidence to support the belief that the world would be a "better place" without religion just isn't there.

Tom Storm

And atheists have?? — dimosthenis9

Of course not. That's not my point. My point is that theists and atheists share a moral starting point. Personal preference.

Taliban are evil cause of religion? They are evil cause they choose to be. Religion is their cover and their "excuse" as to act like that. — dimosthenis9

Err... no. They are an example of fundamentalism. They certainly believe they are doing good and bringing God's will to earth.

And unite atheists? — dimosthenis9

As above. Atheists and theists share the same basis for morality.

But it is not what I claimed. — dimosthenis9

I was answering your question below.

2.If you gonna make people stop believing in religions then WHAT could replace God? How can you convince people to be "good" ??? — dimosthenis9

Replacing god/s isn't an issue since theism doesn't lead to moral behavior. Your wider question about convincing people to be good I didn't answer since you made assumptions along the way which needed clarification.

You can't convince people to be good (whatever that is). You can't even convince people to wear masks.

Banno

That vast majority of people worldwide reach to a high average intellectual level... — dimosthenis9

Most folk are above average? I once had the task of explaining, to a director in the Department of Education, why we could not have more kids scoring above average in standardised tests.

dimosthenis9

It is not simply about overthrowing religion, but finding connections with the deepest aspects of ourselves, including the numinous and the essential values for living. — Jack Cummins

For sure you can't just simply throw religions out of the window one day. I agree with that work with ourselves that you suggest and I think it plays a huge role as someone to act "good" in societies. But how you could convince people to do that is the real question?

Banno

...are we sure that world would be a better place without religions? — dimosthenis9

So folk think religion is problematic because the belief is unjustified; that there is no evidence to suport religious contentions.

I don't agree. The problem is not lack of evidence. The problem is belief in the face of the evidence.

It is belief that the wine is blood, that the bread is flesh. It is belief that god would have you sacrifice your eldest son. It is belief that women cannot drive, that guns bring peace, that homosexuality is unnatural.

It's the basic dishonesty of religion that renders it culpable.

dimosthenis9

↪Banno

Most folks are below average nowadays. What I wrote was an "if" scenario and I just don't know if that will ever happen indeed.

dimosthenis9

I don't agree. The problem is not lack of evidence. The problem is belief in the face of the evidence — Banno

I'm not sure I got your point here. So you think that any kind of belief is problematic and not just religions?

It's the basic dishonesty of religion that renders it culpable. — Banno

And who needs that dishonesty at the very end as to maintain it? Aren't people who actually need that "dishonesty" as to follow some rules?

dimosthenis9

Your wider question about convincing people to be good I didn't answer since you made assumptions along the way which needed clarification.

You can't convince people to be good (whatever that is). — Tom Storm

So you think that even without religions things would be the same more or less ? No better or worse?

As above. Atheists and theists share the same basis for morality. — Tom Storm

Hmm. How can the base be the same when theists get moral rules from some God and atheists don't? I don't think it's same base here.

dimosthenis9

I think it is perfectly possible to construct a moral system without religious beliefs. Upbringing, education, and a legal system would be quite adequate to enforce proper conduct. — Apollodorus

I find that possible also. But how that construction would work for folk troubles me. What would be the fundamental base of that moral system? From where morals would come from? And how we could convince people follow it without any God "punishment"?

Banno

People still have to decide for themselves regardless of theism. — Tom Storm

There's the rub.

And @dimosthenis9's asking for a "fundamental base of that moral system" misunderstands this.

Suppose there is a "fundamental base"; it remains that one must chose to follow it, or no.

On what basis could one make the choice, without already having made that choice?

Hence, as I suppose you might agree, the point is not to follow some fundamental moral system, but to become a better person.

Hence, Virtue Ethics.

What can replace god? Silence.

Apollodorus

I find that possible also. But how that construction would work for folk troubles me. What would be the fundamental base of that moral system? From where morals would come from? And how we could convince people follow it without any God "punishment"? — dimosthenis9

Well, personally, when I judge the ethical value of a particular action, I decide whether that action is "good" or "bad" on the basis of upbringing. This tends to be my primary motivation in avoiding a particular action, for example, not the thought that I may be punished by God, though I can't rule out that possibility should I choose to take a different course of action.

I think children are quite good at learning what is right and what is wrong if they have parents who are themselves good role models.

It would need to start with basic things such as discipline, self-control, and cleanliness which is something that even animals can learn without any fear of God.

In those cases where upbringing and education fail to have the desired effect, there would be fear of the law or social disapproval. But I agree that sometimes it may be easier to tell children that God will punish them to instill right behavior. And, as I said, the possibility of divine punishment cannot be ruled out.

hypericin

There actually is an answer to this: Gaiasm. The one true, real life, utterly neglected religion. The only one where there is no need to resort to pernicious anthropomorphism, reification and false mythology.

Gaism fulfills everything a religion needs to.

Gaia created us as a species, and individually gave each of us life. We all live our lives under Her purview. When we die we return to Her.

Gaia is so far beyond our ability to understand that She is, relative to our puny minds (which are after all merely tiny, gnarled bits of Her), effectively transcendent, and infinite

We are blaspheming terribly against this living god, by desecrating her body. In consequence, we are literally descending into hell.

The only way we can escape this fate is to regain our relationship and respect of the real deity.

If there is anything that can still save us, it is mass adoption of the actual, non fairy tale religion.

What I say is a reframing of a materialist worldview, rather than woo. I have little interest in woo.

Jack Cummins

↪dimosthenis9

In response to your query about how it is possible to convince someone to act in a way which is 'good' without the idea of God, I think that it is about appealing to the person's better nature. In many ways it is just about removing all the fear involved in religion based on divine wrath and punishment. In some ways it may be simpler to explain according to reason, as well as to emotive and intuitive aspects of the picture. Personally, I grew up with discussion about what constituted sin and in a lot of ways the focus was on petty matters rather than the essentials of morality and ethics.

NOS4A2

↪dimosthenis9

Religious enthusiasm and secular enthusiasm are nearly indistinguishable, no matter the contents of their thoughts. I would prefer some religion to Juche socialism.

But I think one can appeal to the conscience no matter the content of one’s beliefs. I seem to carry around this unseen witness to keeps tabs on my own behavior.

Tom Storm

What can replace god? Silence. — Banno

I think this is excellent advice.

Hence, Virtue Ethics. — Banno

Yes, I have learned to understand morality as performative.

What would be the fundamental base of that moral system? From where morals would come from? And h — dimosthenis9

And how we could convince people follow it without any God "punishment"? — dimosthenis9

The point already made is that not many care what a 'god wants' (which is why prisons are full of theists). And no one knows what God wants - it's subjective interpretation. I fail to see how God helps in any way on this matter. Some Christians think God condones killing (capital punishment, self defense, war, homosexuality) some are conscientious objectors and refuse killing in ANY circumstance. The decision is made via personal choice. God itself remains silent.

Fooloso4

What can replace god? Silence. — Banno

There are always those who want to eff the ineffable. They don't know what the eff they are talking about.

dimosthenis9

Suppose there is a "fundamental base"; it remains that one must chose to follow it, or no. — Banno

But of course one must chose to follow it. And for sure not everyone will choose that. I just ask what kind of fundamental base could replace God as to convince as many people as religions do now to follow it. If of course there can be actually one.

On what basis could one make the choice, without already having made that choice? — Banno

On the basis that you teach kids for
example to "act good" cause God says so. Can that be replaced with something else? That's my question. What different can you teach them that could be so convincing as religions?

Hence, as I suppose you might agree, the point is not to follow some fundamental moral system, but to become a better person. — Banno

Sure I agree. But what I am curious about is how you can achieve that goal for humanity without Gods? Shouldn't something take his place as to urge people to become better persons indeed?You ask from someone to be moral. Shouldn't you give him a good reason to act like that also?

What can replace god? Silence — Banno

God seems to me pretty silent already all these years.

dimosthenis9

I fail to see how God helps in any way on this matter — Tom Storm

For me God helps as not more people to act evil. Of course is always a matter of choice what you will do at the end. But imo things would be much worse, at least now. Many people try to act good cause of God's fear or reward. They even push themselves to do that. And that's social useful at least in my eyes. Without it, we might have even more people who would choose evil, than we already have. Maybe more work for you in prison also.

Tom Storm

For me God helps as not more people to act evil — dimosthenis9

Lots of people think this. But what is the evidence?

Many people try to act good cause of God's fear or reward. — dimosthenis9

I doubt this is true. And I suspect it goes the other way - a lot of morally repugnant behavior happens because of god beliefs - female circumcision; homophobia; misogyny; capital punishment; prohibitions on birth control (leading to AIDS and overpopulation and cruelty to unwanted children).

I don't think you can say that the plus side is dominant.

I also think any moral system based on fear is not a moral system. That's mafia morality.

dimosthenis9

. I would prefer some religion to Juche socialism. — NOS4A2

What is Juche socialism?

I seem to carry around this unseen witness to keeps tabs on my own behavior — NOS4A2

Interesting opinion.Consiense might actual be helpful in playing God's role.It gives you both reward and punishment indeed. But you have to find then a great way as to "communicate" that to people and make them realize that.

What can replace God??

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