People will only believe in God, if they had personal experience of God or religious events. Otherwise it would be unlikely the faith and beliefs could arise via intellectual or ethical inculcations. — Corvus
Are you trying to say morality doesn't essentially come into religion, only sometimes incidentally? And that the main source of morality has to be direct from reason? — Fine Doubter
Could we create an alternative to this? The irony of course is since many atheists are independent and don't need that social group as much, they're less likely to form and congregate a large enough group that could gain the attention it needs as a viable alternative to church.
— Philosophim
Never thought that before. Sounds totally reasonable though. So at the end, they might turn themselves into the biggest obstacle for their fight against religions?? Right? That is a fucking huge irony for sure. — dimosthenis9
Philosophim appears to be claiming that there's no viable alternative to religion for non-religious people because they're not as dependent on social groups. Is that true? — praxis
None of the above is only found in religion. — praxis
moral development. — praxis
Are you an evangelist? — Fine Doubter
You are the one that needs to leave people be. Move on to honest logic and reason like you were "suggesting" with forked tongue. — Fine Doubter
I'm probably twice your age and I worked hard to get away from some duplicitous people who had elaborate excuses. — Fine Doubter
Well give all of us billions of level headed and kind hearted agnostics some room then. You sound like you are fixated on excluding the middles. — Fine Doubter
I think he mostly means that since most atheists are usually more independent, they don't have so much the need to get united in large scale and under an "new moral umbrella", as that to become enough to replace religion. — dimosthenis9
moral development.
— praxis
Interesting phrase. What could that be in your opinion? And how could that happen also? — dimosthenis9
Philosophim never used the phrase "new moral umbrella" — praxis
, I think what Philosophim is actually referring to is how tightly bonded a group is, — praxis
What if group solidarity is valued more than a principle like truth? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? In a sense it could be, as you say, "socially useful", but useful to what end? — praxis
It happens with learning and teaching, and also with reasoning and training. — praxis
Philosophim appears to be claiming that there's no viable alternative to religion for non-religious people because they're not as dependent on social groups. Is that true? First let's look at what religion offers, as defined by Philosophim:
Community
Belonging
Greater purpose
Emotional support
Social safety net
Feel part of something greater than themselves
I'll add to the list:
Identity
Transcendence
None of the above is only found in religion. — praxis
Transcendence? I am not sure if that's anything but a poetic abstract, but I know what people mean. People also talk of experiencing the numinous. You can get that visiting nature or listening to an orchestra play (there are endless possibilities). — Tom Storm
Whatever you like to call it, the key affect being the reduction of existential anxiety, something commonly believed to be exclusive to the religious realm. — praxis
People also talk of experiencing the numinous. You can get that visiting nature or listening to an orchestra play (there are endless possibilities). — Tom Storm
Magical thinking, learned helplessness, reality / death-denial, trust in imaginary friends, fear of imaginary enemies, etc – you don't see any problems with adults cultivating and blinkered by such "god"-related/fixated emotional habits?So what's the problem if they do? I can't see any. — dimosthenis9
but back it up from a logical point of view with universally valid reasoning and evidential facts on why the claims or statements are relevant and logical and therefore it is true. That is philosophy. — Corvus
Magical thinking, learned helplessness, reality / death-denial, trust in imaginary friends, fear of imaginary enemies, etc – you don't see any problems with adults cultivating and blinkered by such "god"-related/fixated emotional habits? — 180 Proof
god"-related/fixated emotional habits? — 180 Proof
True! But I guess it is so difficult being rational with someone who believes in a celestial dictator as "God"
Facts, arguments, knowledge, statements, axioms, and other forms of logic, cannot fit with religion because those persons are already so influenced by a dogma which is so strong. — javi2541997
rather than saying they are bad and stupid. — Corvus
Religious people often assume that those without a belief in the supernatural cannot find beauty and inspiration in this world. Non-believers know that meaning in this world is of their own making and not dictated by a higher being... (Elisabeth Cornwell, Evolutionary Psychologist, "I Don't Need God to be Inspired," Center for Inquiry - LA, 7 October 2012)
In case I haven't mentioned this before, I'm an atheist. I do not believe there is any mind/body separation. All we are is our brains. We are chemical reactions. We are stuff - Penn Jillette, Presto! How I Made Over 100 Pounds Disappear and Other Magical Tales, Simon & Schuster, 2016, p.125.
Augustine was an self-centered fantasist and an earth-centered ignoramus: he was guiltily convinced that god cared about his trivial theft from some unimportant pear trees, and quite persuaded -- by an analogous solipsism -- that the sun revolved around the earth.
making truth claims about the nature of reality, and are subsequently rejected on the grounds that there is insufficient evidence to support them. New atheism further maintains that religion is not simply wrong, but irrational, pathological and uniquely dangerous. By promoting beliefs and behaviours that emphasize cosmically ordained rules, sanctions and ways of life, religion is believed to foster divisive tribal mentalities, creating prejudice, discrimination and violence
I did not say they are bad and stupid... I just think they are brainwashed or similar. Some of the arguments I have according to the books I have read are the following ones: — javi2541997
You, on the other hand, are blinkered by half-truths and outright ignorance of the historical and psychosocial facts of religion. I'm hardly alone, dimo9, in noting you've no idea what you are talking about and, like a typical D-K, you're completely incorrigible. — 180 Proof
I feel that it is not philosophical arguments just to keep saying religion is bad, god is bad, the empty concepts and religious people are stupid, someone said this and that so it must be true .... so forth so fifth. These types of comments are not adding anything to the philosophical points and arguments at all, apart from making the claimer look like an unphilosophical bystander devoid of logical sense. — Corvus
I could have written that. Every single word .As the rest of your post also
The only thing it offers us, is to show us one more time, how dogmatic people are about their personal beliefs. Whatever it is.
Even well read people get blinded by their lust everyone to agree with their personal beliefs.
That's the only use, arguments like that have. — dimosthenis9
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