Perhaps we could look at our argument in a new way? How were European Christians educated? — Athena
The Bible is not a revealed work of God but the work of men, as are all holy books. — Athena
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about …
This is the book! There is no doubt about it —a guide for those mindful ˹of Allah˺ who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and donate from what We [Allah] have provided for them and who believe in what has been revealed to you, O Prophet!˺
Good idea. European Christians were educated in institutions run by the clergy. The catechetical schools founded in the early days of Christianity at Alexandria and Antioch were run by the Church. Professors from ecclesiastical and lay schools later formed universities like that of Bologna. This shows that Christianity did value and promote knowledge and explicates the important fact that science arose in Christian Europe and nowhere else. — Apollodorus
Aristotle's logic - Why Aristotelian logic does not workhttps://www.abelard.org › category › category
This false 'logic' lies at the heart of authoritarianism, conflict, and a great deal of inadequate 'science'. You are either for us or against us. He 'is' 'good ... — abelard
And the west slide into the Dark Ages because the Church cut off the wisdom of older civilizations. Let us be clear about this. The Dark Ages were dark because of the power struggle and who it. You can not claim the pagan progress as the Christian good, because the Church cut us off that.Granted for awhile the school at Alexandria relied on philosophers to bridge between the rich philosophical conscoiusness including knowledge of math and an attempt to understand the natural world and medicine free of superstitutions notions, but the was ended by... "The Council of Constantinople, convened in 381", a little while after the death of St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "had far-reaching effects for Egypt". After declaring the primacy of the Bishop of Rome at the expense of Alexandrian authority, riots destroyed the school. — Wikipedia
His works are seen as developing the scientific method and remained influential through the scientific revolution.[6] — Wikipedia
St John of Damascus, a Christian scholar who lived in the early days of Islamic rule in Syria, investigated the current claims regarding the Koran and was told that the Koran was given to Mohammad in a dream. He also found out that Mohammad obtained knowledge of Christian scriptures from his close companions some of whom were Christians (of whom there were many in Arabia at the time). He concluded that "This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments, devised his own heresy". — Apollodorus
Muhammad's views on Jews - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › Muhammad's_views_on_Jews
The Islamic prophet Muhammad's views on Jews were formed through the contact he had with Jewish tribes living in and around Medina. His views on Jews ... — Wikipedia
So while you might want to give Christians credit for the wisdom of pagan civilizations, only by eliminating facts can this be done. — Athena
If anyone committed heresy it was the Christians! I think Christians have some gall to create a new "revealed religion" and pick and choose what they wanted from the revealed religion of Jews and then say the Muslims committed heresy because the Muslims did the same thing the Christians did. — Athena
But if you back each other against him, then verily, Allah is his Mawla (Lord, Master, Protector), and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are his helpers.” (Al-Tahrim 66:4)
Narrated Omar:
“Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (Sahih al-Bukhari 8.402)
But this is not what I am doing. What I am saying is that Christian culture (and to some extent religion) is based on Classical (Greek and Roman) culture.
Christianity emerged within the cultural context of the Hellenized Roman Empire. Christians had a different religion but they had the same Graeco-Roman culture as Pagan citizens of the Roman Empire. And science as we know it today emerged within Christian society. — Apollodorus
But why single out Christians? The Jews got much of their religion and culture from neighboring peoples — Apollodorus
Christianity emerged within the cultural context of the Hellenized Roman Empire. Christians had a different religion but they had the same Graeco-Roman culture as Pagan citizens of the Roman Empire. And science, as we know it today, emerged within Christian society. — Apollodorus
Math is considered to be science. You think all math is inductive reasoning?Aristotle's logic is deductive reasoning. Science is inductive reasoning. — Athena
If I could add something to this. When it comes to science and scientific thought, either the collapse during the Dark Ages or the Renaissance of it later, religion isn't the sole culprit or reason. Yes, it is part of the reasons, but not the only actor. I would think that simply the in the first case the collapse and then a rebirth of a globalized economy is a far more important reason. Science and scientists, just as artists and engineers, need an economy where there is a demand for such highly advanced professions and enough revenue to pay for their services. A poor, regional economy that basically just survives won't create such highly specialized professions. There simply has to be those patreons and their wealth.To say science reemerged in a Christian society seems to deny what the rest of the world achieved and what the achievements of others has to do with the advancements that the west made. Perhaps we could discuss why the west became a leader? We are dealing with Christians opposing science so how can we see them as the friend of science? — Athena
Let's remember that we are talking about Afghanistan.Anyway,can we have an agreement that trading is important to stimulate both the mind and the economy and the US failed to establish regional relationships that are essential to Afghanistan being a healthy country? Agree the problem is Afghanistan's economic and trading problem and its isolation from others, not Islam? Yes? — Athena
Trade didn't even come to be an issue: trade and economic issues are mainly for peacetime. Not when you are fighting a war (and utterly losing it), you don't care about trade and the economy. These are issues mentioned in rosy speeches. — ssu
WASHINGTON – The U.S. government has never provided a full accounting of the costs of America's so-called “forever wars” in Afghanistan and Iraq. But researchers at Brown University estimate that the U.S. has spent $5.8 trillion on the war in Afghanistan and other conflicts stemming from the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.Sep 1, 2021 — USA Today
Simply put it: Americans created their own narrative about the war and for the reasons to fight the war without any interest or thought given either to Afghans, Afghan internal politics or neighboring countries and their objectives. That's the real reason. And you can see it in the commentary now given by Joe Biden extremely well. — ssu
Who was fighting a war other than the neocons? — Athena
However, that does not make Christianity God's truth. It is not a revealed religion but the work of many minds building on stories others have told. — Athena
Christianity went through a period of clarifying its theology and rejecting anything that was pagan. That is when it went into the Dark Age. — Athena
Why single out the Christians? Because they rebelled against the law and gave us a different truth from the revealed religion the Jews followed. — Athena
To say science reemerged in a Christian society seems to deny what the rest of the world achieved and what the achievements of others has to do with the advancements that the west made. — Athena
Jews became the money dealers so Christians didn't have to get their hands dirty. You know a lot so perhaps you know of the history of which I speak? — Athena
As I said on another thread, also the hypothetical Gore administration would have gone to Afghanistan. And to respond to a terrorist attack with a military attack was something that already the Reagan administration had done. It's really, really difficult to think that Americans would have after 9/11. If Bush would have negotiated with the Taliban and gotten them to hand over Osama bin Laden to the US, likely then he would have lost the next election. Even ironic is the Peace-deal that Trump made with the Taliban: they would immediately accepted such a paper in September/October 2001.
The issue never was what to do with Afghanistan. Or how to win...an insurgency of one's own making. — ssu
ago — Athena
However, that does not make Christianity God's truth. It is not a revealed religion but the work of many minds building on stories others have told.
— Athena
But that doesn’t mean that there is no truth in those stories.]/quote]
Right, and the stories of Tory turned out to be true, so does that make the ancient understanding of the gods is true? All religions and philosophies support the human good. The Christian deification of Jesus and belief that somehow we must be saved by him is not true, and that Christian belief is extremely problematic because it denies so many truths, such as the shared goodness of people and the truth of evolution.
— Apollodorus
Christianity went through a period of clarifying its theology and rejecting anything that was pagan. That is when it went into the Dark Age.
— Athena
I don’t think there is any evidence for that. There was no “Dark Ages” in the Greek East.
Why single out the Christians? Because they rebelled against the law and gave us a different truth from the revealed religion the Jews followed.
— Athena
They didn’t rebel against the Law. Christians rebelled against animal sacrifices, rituals and dietary regulations that in their opinion distracted from true spirituality. The core of the Law, consisting of the Ten Commandments, was preserved intact.
To say science reemerged in a Christian society seems to deny what the rest of the world achieved and what the achievements of others has to do with the advancements that the west made.
— Athena
Not at all. There is no connection between one and the other. As already stated, Christianity built upon what was already there in Classical and other traditions. And we can’t deny the fact that modern science developed in the West, not in Arabia.
Jews became the money dealers so Christians didn't have to get their hands dirty. You know a lot so perhaps you know of the history of which I speak?
— Athena
I think this may be another modern era myth. Of course, some Jews were involved in monetary transactions. But large-scale money lending (at interest!) was already practiced by Christian estates controlled by monasteries and the Church.
That is denying the Christians were as opposed to usury and being materialistic as the Muslims. And it also denies the evils that came with industrialization, the very reason both Christianity and Moslems had moral restraints. Puritans came out of Calvinism and Calvinism flipped the whole money issue from being an evil to being proof that one is blessed and chosen by God. We have a problem when a belief is not grounded in facts and in this care that includes denying the evils that go with the pursuit of money to argue our wealth is because God blesses us. :shade: :naughty: There for our military is God's" power and glory" and it is our destiny to eliminate those who block our pursuits of wealth, such as the USSR, the oil-rich nations and Cubans.
There was some initial opposition to commercial activities by the clergy and monks but by the 1100's this was no longer the case and capitalism was able to develop without hindrance from the Church. There was nothing comparable in the Islamic world where production and exchange came increasingly under the control of the state. It was the economic freedom in Christian Europe that made the difference IMO.
↪Olivier5
Well in the first two hundred years of Islamic rule nothing was created. Only when Ommavid Califate was replaced with a more tolerant Abbasid they started to produce significant scientific and philosophical content.
There is a lot of discussions about the early military success of Islamic armies, the main two reasons:
50 years of devasting war between the eastern roman empire and Sasanid Persia, and egalitarian preachment and equality (of men). Military success is not a sign of civilization, for example, look at Mongols victories. — Hooman
You might want to deal with our ugly history and immediate problems, instead of staying within a religious fantasy. — Athena
The centuries following the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West did not see an abrupt disappearance of the ancient schools, from which emerged Martianus Capella, Cassiodorus and Boethius, essential icons of the Roman cultural heritage in the Middle Ages, thanks to which the disciplines of liberal arts were preserved. The 7th century saw the "Isidorian Renaissance" in the Visigothic Kingdom of Hispania in which sciences flourished and the integration of Christian and pre-Christian thought occurred, while the spread of Irish monastic schools (scriptoria) over Europe laid the groundwork for the Carolingian Renaissance.
As an Afghan citizen, I am really tired of this war, suicide and explosions. How long do we have to endure this misery? — Sayed Ahad (BBC)
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.