When Descartes exclaimed "I think therefore I am, he proved the existence of his mind," not his body. His body could be a figment of his thoughts. There is no doubt that one's consciousness exists. — Ree Zen
Please use "Quote" to give me the exact reference to what I have said. Because I don't remember having ever said that Descartes, with this or any other statement, proved the existence of his body!When Descartes exclaimed "I think therefore I am, he proved the existence of his mind," not his body. — Ree Zen
(BTW, I have never said or left be implied that Descartes proved the existence of this body, as @Ree Zen mentioned.)It's even more serious than this. How did Descartes establish there was an "I" doing the thinking? He made some assumptions even here. A more accurate exclamation might have been, 'There is thinking." — Tom Storm
(BTW, I have never said or left be implied that Descartes proved the existence of this body, as Ree Zen mentioned.) — Alkis Piskas
Interesting point. However, the existence of "I" is not based on an assumption. It is self-evident. I am aware of being aware. That's the proof --for me-- that I exist — Alkis Piskas
I know! But the quote by @Ree Zen's that you brought up was an anwer to me and leads back to me! (OK, I'm a little sensitive to being attributed statements I have never made, esp. if they are false! :grin:)Never said you did — Tom Storm
I see. But there a lot f things Nietzsche has said that I don't agree with! :smile:Even Nietzsche said of the cogito that there was an unjustifiable presupposition that there was an I. — Tom Storm
OK, I think enough is said about Descartes ... I have not even mentioned him in my present topic!Descartes went to all the trouble of ... — Tom Storm
Only in movies! :smile: But, not only schizophrenics, a lot who suffer from severe mental illnesses have no sense of themselves; they are not aware that they exist. Their mind is just messed up.Ever met anyone with schizophrenia? Thought insertion and the sense that your mind isn't really yours is a common experience. — Tom Storm
If you mean that they misunderstood Descartes' thoughts, ideas and conclusions, I can really believe it. That's why I never rely on what known philosophers or "experts" say. I prefer to use my own positions on a subject --if I have any-- and talk with persons based on their own positions. Some depend only on quotes by and positions of philosophers to provide arguments in a discussion. And very often, they bring in quotes that are either false or have never been actually said by the person: E.g. the famous "I know that I know nothing" is know to never having been actually said by Socrates! :smile:All this means is that some very smart thinkers have taken the cogito in ways alien to Descartes' conclusion. — Tom Storm
My intention was only to prove that the belief of "We are our bodies" is nonsensical and unsubstantiated. — Alkis Piskas
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