Our abject ignorance is duly compensated for by the richness of our hypotheticals. — TheMadFool

At least when the flesh is healthy (which ignorance makes more difficult.)

That's a perspective I haven't seen in a long time. Good to know people aren't using their brains for just mundane activities. Imagination is a marvelous thing - there are so many possibilities to think about. Our abject ignorance is duly compensated for by the richness of our hypotheticals. — TheMadFool

Where have you seen a similar perplexed perspective? Are you referring to PanEnDeism, or to Mysterianism, or simply to Inquisitive Agnosticism? :smile:

"All I know is that I know nothing"
___attributed to Socrates
This is technically a shorter paraphrasing of Socrates' statement, "I neither know nor think I know" (in Plato, Apology 21d).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

For our descendants' sakes, let's hope not. I think 'human-level artificial intelligence' without any unnecessary atavistic, evolutionary-baggage like that metacognitive bottleneck "self-awareness" would be optimal. — 180 Proof

Humanoid descendants without "self-awareness"??? Where's the fun in that? Our self-oriented egos may be an atavistic bottleneck. But at least it allows us a perspective from which to critique the non-me world. A rock on a mountain cannot see the stars, because it's not self-motivated to look up. :cool:

PS___Artificial Intelligence without a self-image would also lack free-will. Because it would not be able to distinguish Self from Non-self. Hence, no firm grounds for making choices. That might make a good slave Robot, but a rather boring Person. Besides, with no self-perspective, those arrogant AI would not see us metacognitively-confused NI (Natural Intelligences) as ancestors. Perhaps only as insignificant bits of their highly-evolved post-genetic code. :joke:

Humanoid descendants without "self-awareness"??? — Gnomon

I didn't say that.

Artificial Intelligence (1) without a self-image would also (2) lack free-will. Because it would (3) not be able to distinguish Self from Non-self.

I disagree with this.

(3) "Non-self" would be whatever AI "observed" that it could not control or it would have to use its executive functions to manipulate. (2) Such a system maps its environment to include itself ("self-image") as a token which is also a parameter (or axis) of its interactivity with (orientation to) its environment. (1) As far as "free will" goes, a compatibilist might say: 'as long as the machine is free of coercion by another agent, its "will" – executive functioning – is, for all intents and purposes, "free" no less so than that of a human (i.e. a deterministic, complex, ecology-bound, information-processing system)'. Btw, these three capabilities already have been implemented in a range of autonomous industrial military & commercial robots.

What I mean by 'atavistic ... metacognitive bottleneck of self-awareness' is an intelligent system which develops a "theory of mind" as humans do based on a binary "self-other" model wherein classes of non-selves are otherized to varying degrees (re: 'self-serving' (i.e. confabulation-of-the-gaps) biases, prejudices, ... tribalism, etc). Ergo: human-level intelligence without anthropocentric defects (unless we want all of our Frankenstein, Skynet-Terminator, Matrix nightmares to come true).

"Non-self" would be whatever AI "observed" that it could not control or it would have to use its executive functions to manipulate. Such a system maps its environment to include itself as a token which is also a parameter (or axis). — 180 Proof

That seems to be a semantic quibble. A morally responsible agent maps its environment, with Self as a as a You Are Here "token", in order to properly execute its cybernetic responsibilities. In other words, executive self-control must precede other-control. Yes?

Cybernetics :
Margaret Mead emphasised the role of cybernetics as "a form of cross-disciplinary thought which made it possible for members of many disciplines to communicate with each other easily in a language which all could understand".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics

Executive :
of, relating to, or suited for carrying out plans, duties, etc.:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/executive
Note -- by controlling others

That seems to be a semantic quibble. A morally responsible agent ... — Gnomon

Your quibble, G, not mine. The rest is non sequitur.

metacognitive bottleneck "self-awareness" — 180 Proof

? :chin: You say it as if it's (self-awareness) is a bad thing. Why, may I ask?

:point:

What I mean by 'atavistic ... metacognitive bottleneck of self-awareness' is an intelligent system which develops a "theory of mind" as humans do based on a binary "self-other" model wherein classes of non-selves are otherized to varying degrees (re: 'self-serving' (i.e. confabulation-of-the-gaps) biases, prejudices, ... tribalism, etc). — 180 Proof

What I mean by 'atavistic ... metacognitive bottleneck of self-awareness' is an intelligent system which develops a "theory of mind" as humans do based on a binary "self-other" model wherein classes of non-selves are otherized to varying degrees (re: 'self-serving' (i.e. confabulation-of-the-gaps) biases, prejudices, ... tribalism, etc). — 180 Proof

:fire: Moral of the story: I'm gonna need a bigger boat.



By the way, very Buddhist (anattā).

Where have you seen a similar perplexed perspective? — Gnomon

It's everywhere. You just have to be on the lookout for it.

At least when the flesh is healthy (which ignorance makes more difficult.) — hanaH

Righto!

:fire: Moral of the story: I'm gonna need a bigger boat. — TheMadFool

Great scene, great cast, great movie. My little brother and I had nightmares all summer long after seeing Jaws at a Long Island, NY drive-in with my (crazy) uncle when it first came out. :monkey: :up:

By the way, very Buddhist (anattā).

??? No idea what this reply has to do with my previous post.

Great scene, great cast, great movie. My little brother and I had nightmares all summer long after seeing Jaws at Long Island drive-in with my (crazy) uncle when it first came out. :monkey: :up: — 180 Proof

Good to know I brought back bitter-sweet memories. :smile:

By the way, very Buddhist (anattā).
??? No idea what this reply has to do with my previous post. — 180 Proof

Self-awareness creates the self-other distinction and that, according to Buddhism is the final boss in this game we call life. Ego-death? Ah, but you don't buy into that idea, believing instead in Ego-transcendence or something like that. Do you mind jogging my memory too?

Ego-death? Ah, but you don't buy into that idea, believing[proposing] instead in Ego-transcendence[suspension] or something like that. Do you mind jogging my memory too? — TheMadFool

This post should do. And this post too. Lastly, Fool, this post on mysticism to aufheben (i.e. sublimate) the other two.

Ego-suspension! Yes! I need to make a note of that!

By the way, very Buddhist (anattā). — TheMadFool

I get your meaning now: yes, AI without 'self-awareness' (and thereby without all of the defects which come with having an ego-self). :up:

"I neither know nor think I know" — Gnomon

:up:



If determinism is incompatible with free will, it seems impossible that any AI, no matter how advanced, will ever possess free will. I'm assuming AI is going to be deterministic systems. Can they be anything else?

Side note: Free will and randomness, can they be distinguished in any real sense?

Human beings are deterministic nonlinear dynamic systems consisting of deterministic nonlinear dynamic subsystems ... Thus, compatibilism.

nonlinear — 180 Proof

Is that (nonlinear) the secret to compatibilism. Could you elaborate on it if it's not too much to ask. Thanks.

Elaborate on what? If you missed it, I included a link in my previous post.

Elaborate on what? If you missed it, I included a link in my previous post. — 180 Proof

How do we reconcile determinism with free will, as must happen in compatibilism?

Follow the link.

Follow the link. — 180 Proof

:ok: I'm intrigued by your statement: deterministic nonlinear dynamic systems.

It's a compendium of concepts (determinism, nonlinearity, dynamism, system). I was just wondering which of these is the key to compatabilism.

Something for you to think for yourself about. Hint: the phrase describes 'chaotic processes' – deterministic parameters and inputs with unpredictable (i.e. intractably complex) outputs, like the weather or climate.or multi-variable lotteries – 'illusions of indeterminancy'.

think for yourself — 180 Proof

Good advice! I don't quite like the idea of relying on predigested material. Isn't that someone else's shit? :grin:

Good day señor!