And when I brought up the likelihood of those millions of people being deluded in that respect, given evidence to the contrary, he mistakenly took that to be the fallacy of appealing to the masses. Of course, masses of people have turned out to be deluded in various respects throughout history, but we can still make a reasonable assessment given various factors: the content of the belief, the number of people that beleive it and the basis for their belief, the available evidence... — Sapientia
My problem with stoicism I guess, isn't necessarily whether it helps people (whether by delusion, habituation, or otherwise), but that pain is elusive in ways that stoicism doesn't necessarily solve. — schopenhauer1
the scorn that I didn't use examples of "real" pain — schopenhauer1
What really will happen is a series of annoying events that follows.. — schopenhauer1
he never followed it himself! — schopenhauer1
I honestly don't think "stoicism" really works. — schopenhauer1
Whether in hindsight, one has mental techniques, visualizations, and ideologies that try to mitigate the pain, does not make the fact that it is there in the first place go away. It is continual and ceaseless. — schopenhauer1
This also goes into another thing of temperament, predispositions, and environments. — schopenhauer1
Not all "treatments" for pain are going to work the same on everyone and what might work for one might not work on another person. — schopenhauer1
Schop, I'm not sure if Stoicism ever claimed to be able to solve these problems. This might be an issue of individuals claiming they've found loopholes. As far as I'm aware, Stoicism is about nurturing the virtuous life, not necessarily mitigating suffering. It just happens that it does it fairly well for many people. — darthbarracuda
Losing your phone is a good example of pain. Pain caused by loss. Buddhism happens to also have a lot to say on this (attachments).
What really will happen is a series of annoying events that follows..
— schopenhauer1
Personally, I'm under the impression that life itself is usually a big annoyance. That's the whole point of philosophies like Stoicism and Buddhism and the like. — darthbarracuda
This is the biggest turn-off for me for Schopenhauer. I respect his philosophy and agree with many of the things he wrote, but man was he a dick and antithetical to the "compassionate ascetic" he championed. It made me look for more inspiring and "role model" philosophers like Camus and the Buddha. — darthbarracuda
For the stoic, suffering is not equivalent with pain. Instead, suffering is the absence of virtue, which manifests itself in multiple forms. In the example with losing the phone that you gave, it manifests itself as self-blame, continued, out of control thinking about the phone, what if scenarios, etc. However, stoic practice leads one to the elimination of suffering. The stoic sage, much like a sports champion, is not hurt by obstacles, but rather profited. When an obstacle comes their way, they are happy, because there's yet another chance to overcome an obstacle. They are indifferent to pain; they do not care if it's painful or not to overcome the obstacle. The joy of the stoic lies in their character - in being able to pursue overcoming the obstacle that lies in their path - in their degree of self-control. As Epictetus said, death (or defeat) may be unavoidable, but it's certainly avoidable not to go out crying and begging like a slave, but instead keep your head up like an emperor. — Agustino
I just don't think people will think like that. People will not be happy with the inconvenience or annoyance. — schopenhauer1
I think it's more about being in a better state than one is currently in right now. Stoicism may not make you Captain Optimism, but it might just make you a bit less grim. — darthbarracuda
I just don't think people will think like that. — schopenhauer1
If you look calm, you at least seem unphased, and are given more respect. — schopenhauer1
I just don't think people are naturally inclined to think that overcoming obstacles is great or desirable- it is simply something one does after the fact because one is forced into it. — schopenhauer1
It's very very difficult, but then, everything excellent is as difficult as it is rare. — Agustino
except not complaining too much. — schopenhauer1
Which actually does quite a bit, to be honest. To complain to the actualize your discomfort and spread it to others like a plague. — darthbarracuda
But that is where the pessimist would have hesitation with life's premise. Overcome shit, or live a less than "good" life. Not that I believe that slogan, but apparently some stoics do. — schopenhauer1
I think pessimism has a better handle on the situation and we do make best of it, no matter what system. — schopenhauer1
Are pessimists just lazy? Laying hold of things takes effort, but it's more fun than wallowing. — Pneumenon
I'm not trolling. It just seems as if pessimism is really convenient for people who want to do nothing, even if that's not always the motivation. — Pneumenon
No they are just willing to state what they see. — schopenhauer1
What is the motivation to "do something"? — schopenhauer1
Presumably this would be because one desires an outcome that would only happen if one does something. These desires are more important than the potential suffering that may come about with it. — darthbarracuda
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