I gave willingly without expectation so why am I having trouble with this? — Tex

Do you think that you made the right decision when you chose to help them or do you regret it?

Bringing up the subject of reciprocation, a good relationship should be able to handle it, or if you decide not to then put it out of your mind because continuing to think about it is only causing you stress.

Do you think that you made the right decision when you chose to help them or do you regret it? — Average

Definitely don't regret it. Not in the least. It was absolutely the right decision, every time. It just seems to me, generally speaking, that it's human nature to want to return kindness with kindness and the fact that's not happening in my situation is blowing my mind.

Bringing up the subject of reciprocation, a good relationship should be able to handle it, or if you decide not to then put it out of your mind because continuing to think about it is only causing you stress. — praxis

But doesn't a good relationship also include reciprocity? That's where I'm having difficulty.

What exactly do you have in mind when you mention human nature? My understanding of human history is dominated by warfare.

What exactly do you have in mind when you mention human nature? My understanding of human history is dominated by warfare. — Average

I guess I'm speaking of human nature very generally on a personal level. If we're at the bar and I buy you a beer, you buy me one a little later on. That kind of thing.

Bringing up the subject of reciprocation, a good relationship should be able to handle it, or if you decide not to then put it out of your mind because continuing to think about it is only causing you stress.
— praxis

But doesn't a good relationship also include reciprocity? That's where I'm having difficulty. — Tex

I was thinking of it in terms of your well-being. Stoic advice would be to act (bring up reciprocation with the subject of your generosity) or put it out of your mind because continuing to ruminate will only do you harm.

Would you agree that behavior is influenced by factors like culture? In other words isn't the behavior of an individual connected to what they believe about the world? In my mind some people are more likely to behave in certain ways due to their understanding of reality which is shaped by their environment and upbringing to some degree. I guess this is the nature versus nurture concept.

I was thinking of it in terms of your well-being. Stoic advice would be to act (bring up reciprocation with the subject of your generosity) or put it out of your mind because continuing to ruminate will only do you harm. — praxis

Sorry, I meant to reply to your second comment as well. I agree with you completely. It's not good for my well-being to dwell on it. It's just my nature to try to understand, or make some sense of, behavior that, in my mind, should be intrinsic in otherwise "normal" people but which isn't. Therein lies the vagaries of human nature I suppose. I chock a lot of thing up to "human nature" but I guess because it personal this time that I'm having difficulty.

Thanks for the new perspective.

Would you agree that behavior is influenced by factors like culture? In other words isn't the behavior of an individual connected to what they believe about the world? In my mind some people are more likely to behave in certain ways due to their understanding of reality which is shaped by their environment and upbringing to some degree. I guess this is the nature versus nurture concept. — Average

Couldn't agree more. Reality fascinates me. Objective vs. subjective. We can never peer into someone's mind to see what their reality is. Even in an objective situation, reality is unique to the individual and can vary greatly. In nature vs. nurture, I believe nurture is the stronger force. Fascinating topic.

I feel bad about having some slight resentment towards this person — Tex

Forgive me for asking but why do you feel bad about having some resentment towards this person?

I've always given and not asked/implied for anything and have never brought it up ever again. Just gave and that's that. — Tex

Herein lies the problem. If you must give, give wisely. Ask questions. I don't know what's your relationship with this person, but if they're family members, then there's your answer -- lack of reciprocity bias because either they feel entitled to your money, or to their mind you just have too much money.

Let's assume though that this person is not a family member:

If you had been doing this for years to the same person, you made it clear to that person that it never hurt you to help him, so his reciprocity bias had become neutral -- he never developed the need to reciprocate. Nor did he try to think, he couldn't possibly repay you so he must stop asking.

No matter how genuine his needs were, you were the enabler of such behavior.

Ethics wise -- nothing to be said. But etiquette, yes he violated this cultural norm.

Just tell yourself -- that money you gave him was made based purely on your own volition. You were not forced to part ways with the money. The windfall he got, that's never your money, so there was never a loss there either.

Do this. Stop seeing or talking to that person. It could be years or never that he might want to contact you. That would be fun times.

As someone who has been helping another person myself -- I'll tell you that that person is an asshole, yet I do not feel anything when parting with my money and sending over electronically, and paying the wire fee. I get a text, and I just do it. When I'm not in good mood, and I get a text for money help, I ignore it. Then the next time I get a text, I just send it. I really feel numbed about this person. I don't tell this to anyone in my family as this is as stupid as it gets. My ex broke up with me citing stupidity on my part as one reason for the break-up. Like a violent feeling of "You're fucking stupid!!" God yes, now that I think about it, that's why I don't date anymore. Because they might find out about this stupid thing I do. I don't even talk to this person. Okay, there's one dark reason -- which I'm going to divulge here. This person almost died by suicide. But this person is still an asshole!

It's just my nature to try to understand, or make some sense of, behavior that, in my mind, should be intrinsic in otherwise "normal" people but which isn't. Therein lies the vagaries of human nature I suppose. I chock a lot of thing up to "human nature" but I guess because it personal this time that I'm having difficulty. — Tex

Another stoicism is that we can’t control other people, or anything really, outside of ourselves, so we’re bound to be disappointed from time to time by people and things beyond our control, and it’s pointless to ruminate over things that are out of our control. We can learn whatever there is to learn and move on.

Forgive me for asking but why do you feel bad about having some resentment towards this person? — Average

That's a great question. Probably because that's a negative emotion that I don't want to feel for that person, or any other person for that matter. I try to keep my emotions on an even keel which is probably why I over-analyze emotional situations. I have great respect for this person and I suppose the thought that they could do something that would tarnish that makes me feel I've misjudged the person which calls into question my ability to evaluate. Perhaps.

But what I think you're saying is that's it is okay to feel some amount of resentment for somebody that has "wronged" me. It occurs to me that it is completely natural to have that feeling. I just want to process it in a way that brings closure where I don't think about it anymore. I think it's better for my well-being to give this person grace, mercy, and forgiveness.

However, this person has made no attempt to reciprocate my kindness. I'm not well off but I'm doing okay so it's not about the money. It really isn't. What I'm struggling with is trying to understand why someone wouldn't intuitively reciprocate. — Tex

Because your society doesn't value it. You do, but perhaps too much. Why should reciprocation be expected, is he your property or something? You really want to know the answer to this question, ask yourself why you care about it. If the answer isn't refined enough to lay out the exact perameters surrounding why you regard reciprocity is something good, in your mind and clearly from the moment you think about it, then you need to assume he's in the same boat, cognitively.

What I keep coming back to is that I know I have helped someone in genuine need and I should feel good about that and end it there. I gave willingly without expectation so why am I having trouble with this? — Tex

There's nothing good about this statement. How is "helping" someone good? Did you guys talk about why he was in his pecuniary straits and encourage better virtues out of him that would induce greater wealth? Did you give to him without telling him you expected money in return if the time came that he had more? If you didn't have expectation, you wouldn't feeling expectation now. You should feel good that you have learned reciprocity is in fact a standard of value chosen by the individual. Meaning, now you'll not be forced to make the mistake of randomized charity to people under the pretenses that just giving your money away is good somehow. For reference, nobody gets my money unless they are clearly good people, in trouble with something completely out of their control that my help will clearly help them overcome, who will go on to be triumphant in life afterwards. Reciprocity is only virtuous between virtuous people.

I feel that if I bring it up, it will needlessly create tension and a rift with this person that I care about so I'm going to keep my big bazoo shut. — Tex

Again, why would you bring it up? Do you need it for something? Is there a purchase you want to make? Or, is it a principle that doesn't apply to human beings other than the person holding the principle? Or, do you just want to be shown appreciation? Because appreciation is funny. It's like, your value of yourself requires the recognition of appreciation from someone else in that case. Which, may be the root to this issue, especially if you can't clearly formulate your views on why such a thing is good.

But this person is still an asshole! — L'éléphant

Explain this.... How so? Asshole? He asked for money, it was given to him. Do you think that purchased a part of him to be owned and an expectation to behave in a certain way towards the giver of the largesse?

his reciprocity bias had become neutral — L'éléphant

In fact, it is a family member, which is I guess is why I'm having the difficulty. If it weren't family, I would also have said they're an asshole and cut them out. I've been in the situation with non-family members before and had no qualms about it. Interesting point about reciprocity bias and my enabling but I can't shake the feeling that, now that this person has the means, that reciprocity would at least enter the person's mind and then act on it. How could it not, is the question I ask myself.

The windfall he got, that's never your money, so there was never a loss there either. — L'éléphant

Agreed. But to me it is not about the money. I guess I have a misunderstanding about basic human nature, but then again money tends to change people not matter how exemplary their previous behavior.

Stop seeing or talking to that person. — L'éléphant

If they weren't family I would. I don't want to be the cause of a rift or tension in the family. I don't want that in my life even if I found it justifiable.

Thanks for the reply, it gives me some things to chew on.

I have great respect for this person and I suppose the thought that they could do something that would tarnish that makes me feel I've misjudged the person which calls into question my ability to evaluate. Perhaps. — Tex

It sounds like you might be worried about whether or not you made the right decision when you decided to help them. I know you already said that you're comfortable with your choice but you don't seem very confident. If you actually did make the right move then there doesn't seem to be any need to dwell on this dilemma and even if you didn't make the right move you shouldn't worry about it as long as you learned your lesson.

Why should reciprocation be expected, is he your property or something? — Garrett Travers

I don't think there's much to say about why reciprocity is good. I do something good for you, then you do something good for me and we both benefit. It also builds trust, agreeableness and forms a bond that is mutually beneficial over the long term. This is, if both are playing by the same rules.

If you didn't have expectation, you wouldn't feeling expectation now. — Garrett Travers

Maybe I'm naïve, but it seems to me that it would be a "normal" person's inclination to reciprocate. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a stranger or random charity.

your value of yourself requires the recognition of appreciation from someone else in that case — Garrett Travers

No, I just think it's not unusual to believe that someone you know would be nice to you after you've been nice to them.

If you actually did make the right move then there doesn't seem to be any need to dwell on this dilemma — Average

And that goes back to my initial conclusion. Thank you for your thoughts.

but I can't shake the feeling that, now that this person has the means, that reciprocity would at least enter the person's mind and then act on it. How could it not, is the question I ask myself. — Tex

It's a family member, so there's a whole different mindset. The reciprocity bias was never there to begin with. Gratitude is what one expects from a family member. Not reciprocity. That person didn't have gratitude. Very common occurrence. But, let's talk about you. Are you feeling this way because it is actually about the money but you're in denial? Let's say he never got the windfall, but he also never thanked you, and never showed up for your birthday, your most important occasion, or for your funeral. How do you feel now? Would you be as bitter?

Explain this.... How so? Asshole? He asked for money, it was given to him. Do you think that purchased a part of him to be owned and an expectation to behave in a certain way towards the giver of the largesse? — Garrett Travers

No, the person was an asshole even before I started giving money, is what I meant. I also said I don't feel anything when helping that person. So, there's that lack of expectation on my part.

I don't think there's much to say about why reciprocity is good. I do something good for you, then you do something good for me and we both benefit. It also builds trust, agreeableness and forms a bond that is mutually beneficial over the long term. This is, if both are playing by the same rules. — Tex

That is precisely right. When it comes to virtues, both MUST be playing the same rules, the very moment expectation of virtue is placed on someone, it becomes an emotional-homeostasis destablizer. Such principles have to be mutually understood and co-operatively employed as a matter of indivdual desire established by individual value. This is why societies are fucked, they fucked this up real bad. Social Contracts are a necessity of a peaceful society. But implicit social contracts pervert the concept entirely, as they place a claim of property on one's consciousness, and thereby their behavior, that was not agreed to by both parties. And such non-agreement will emerge in the uneven distribution of behaviors in the form of conflicting principles. But, don't worry, we'll all learn the hard way if we have to, friend.

Maybe I'm naïve, but it seems to me that it would be a "normal" person's inclination to reciprocate. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a stranger or random charity. — Tex

Naive? That depends, did you legitimately trust that another human being would do something they hadn't agreed to? "Normal" people, isn't a thing, that's where a bit of naivety is slipping through. And, it doesn't matter if it is stranger, or random. If my own my mother came banging on my door for money, absolutely in desperate need of it, I would do the ethical thing, and tell her fuck right off. Why? Because I don't parlay with evil people. Now, I doubt your pal also directly contributed to the untimely death of one his kids, too, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that my standards of virtue at bare minimum must be met before I even have you as a consistent friend in my life. And if issues of this kind are not discussed at length before hand, the ground rules must be met in discussion before the initiation of said behavior. I know this sounds a bit funny, I literally swear to you that you will cherish your friends with greater admiration and love if you standardize this with them, and they you; if they're actually friends, of course.

No, I just think it's not unusual to believe that someone you know would be nice to you after you've been nice to them. — Tex

Come on, man. That's baby talk. Nice can't be a standard for genuine friendship. Nice is nothing more than a neutrality, which is cool, but it isn't a metric by which you keep people in your life. We're talking about things that directly impact your happiness, as you now understand in this situation. It's little shit, too, that's gets you with people. Small lies, coming over uninvited, staying over too late, won't stop staring at your hot wife like she's a piece of ass, votes in elections, little shit. Your consistent happiness is worth that money you gave him, just to know that if the time comes, a motherfucker will reciprocate if, and as you value it. Because if you value it, and he doesn't, and the time comes, and your value gets violated by someone you thought was a friend, you will experience emotional-homeostatic disruption just like this, every time. You are designed to, no shit. I tell you this out of love, my friend.

Have you actually asked them for money? It seems to me that any expectation of reciprocity comes into effect only when you are in the same position as they were: humbled to a point where you would ask for help. It doesn’t seem like you’re there yet.

What you may be expecting is a levelling out of the political landscape between you. The fact that you were in a position to give them money without expecting anything in return made you feel ‘good’ - not because you were doing something ‘good’, but because of the power differential it established between you. That differential has switched, and that’s what bothers you. Otherwise, you’d have no qualms asking them for money if you needed it. Most people don’t realise how much courage and humility it takes to ask someone else to just give you money with no strings attached.

So I don’t think it’s about reciprocity at all. First, forget about the past - the money you’ve given and the windfall they’ve since received - and just accept that you’re now both in a position where you don’t require financial assistance. Be happy for that. Then, trust that if you’re ever in a bind and had to actually ask for money, you can expect this reciprocity from them. Or don’t trust, and just ask them.

Gratitude is what one expects from a family member. — L'éléphant

Why? I expect no such thing from anyone, least ways family members, as those are the most arbitrary relationships in one's entire life. I never did understand this.

No, the person was an asshole even before I started giving money, is what I meant. I also said I don't feel anything when helping that person. So, there's that lack of expectation on my part. — L'éléphant

What on Earth could possibly motivate such action?

But, let's talk about you. Are you feeling this way because it is actually about the money but you're in denial? — L'éléphant

No, I live rather modestly and have spent nearly my entire life in poverty. Even spent a year and eight months homeless with my wife. That kind of thing changes the way you see money. But, I do know you folks have been programmed to feel that way about standards of interactions with people. As if any human has a justified claim on my money, which is my labor, which is my behavior, which is my brain, which is me. I reject this kind of evil, as it goes by a name: slavery.

Let's say he never got the windfall, but he also never thanked you, and never showed up for your birthday, your most important occasion, or for your funeral. How do you feel now? Would you be as bitter? — L'éléphant

Rational people don't get bitter friend, haven't you been reading my posts to the mystics on this channel, hehah? No, you see, my friends would never treat me like that. For a very simple reason, my friends value the primacy of human consciousness above all things, as that's where all values come from in the first place, just like I value it above all things. I know, because I vet them for such a principle. My friends know it means something when I give them pieces of my labor. It means I cherish their consciousness every bit as much I cherish my own, for being precisely the kind of person that cherishes consciousness above everything. I'm thanked before hand, I'm understood to be paid back, am paid back, and love he/she even more. That's friendship. As it happens, I have a brother that hasn't work in almost 15 or so years, who has been living high on the hog for over a decade now, living off the copious amount of money his unemployed Seminole Indian sperm receptacle gets from the Casino supported Commune in Florida for doing nothing other than breathing. He has never offered to help me even when I was homeless, I couldn't care less. I encourage the same attitude about stuff out of my potential friends. World's about to start crumbling, all the signs are there, better start being as resilient as possible and love your life and seek joy and pleasure, and dispense with the bullshit.

As it happens, I have a brother that hasn't work in almost 15 or so years, who has been living high on the hog for over a decade now, living off the copious amount of money his unemployed Seminole Indian sperm receptacle gets from the Casino supported Commune in Florida for doing nothing other than breathing. He has never offered to help me even when I was homeless, I couldn't care less. — Garrett Travers

Like hell you don’t care. There’s a lot of anger and resentment in your choice of words here.

As if any human has a justified claim on my money, which is my labor, which is my behavior, which is my brain, which is me. I reject this kind of evil, as it goes by a name: slavery. — Garrett Travers

What would qualify as a justified claim in your view?

Gratitude is what one expects from a family member. Not reciprocity. — L'éléphant

Thanks for the clarification. Makes a big difference. Not to beat a dead horse or parse words, but I think reciprocity would be included as a way to show gratitude. That's just the way I think I guess.

Are you feeling this way because it is actually about the money but you're in denial? — L'éléphant

No, I'm sure of it. Even if this person paid back every cent, it wouldn't make a difference overall. It would be nice to have the little extra but wouldn't change anything in my situation.

Let's say he never got the windfall, but he also never thanked you, and never showed up for your birthday, your most important occasion, or for your funeral. How do you feel now? Would you be as bitter? — L'éléphant

I hope I haven't come across as bitter. I'm really not, just trying to understand what might be the reason, or thought process, of the person.

Very common occurrence. — L'éléphant

I've thought about this a lot. I've witnessed many occasions where people treat their friends way better than their own family. Things people do to their family that they would never do to their friends. It's like social acceptance is more important to them than familial bonds. Of course, there are things that happen with families behind closed doors that drive that behavior.

What would qualify as a justified claim in your view? — Average

My voluntary participation, contractual agreement, payment of my service, a promise, or having to do with child rearing.

Like hell you don’t care. There’s a lot of anger and resentment in your choice of words here. — Possibility

I think you misunderstand, I wasn't positing a question. It was a statement. Recognition of evil is not anger, or resentment. My choice of words is strategically placed to convey my calm, poised, yet absolutely firm rejection of the evil others take part in. This is simple to do when one understands the truth: the reason people are so unhappy, is because they are so unethical. I can't resent the misery of people who are evil, and never will again. However, my meeknes is not fucking weakness. I will in fact battle, ridicule, humiliate, and hold in contempt any spread of that evil that falls within my purview. So, again, no, I couldn't care less.

Why? I expect no such thing from anyone, least ways family members, as those are the most arbitrary relationships in one's entire life. I never did understand this. — Garrett Travers

Liar! Or you're a school of fish! Gratitude is a common knowledge. :smirk:

Like hell you don’t care. There’s a lot of anger and resentment in your choice of words here. — Possibility

That's what I get, too, from his post.

Time to say something about this:

Hey guys! When you sound bitter, but you're not aware in your tone of voice that you sound bitter, then that means your natural emotion is showing. Often we don't smell our own fear. But others can.

Not to beat a dead horse or parse words, but I think reciprocity would be included as a way to show gratitude. That's just the way I think I guess. — Tex

You're mistaking necessity for sufficiency in reasoning. Reciprocity is sufficient to show gratitude, but showing gratitude does not necessarily contain reciprocity. I'll give you an example: We show gratitude to our parents for raising us. But this gratitude is never a reciprocity in the sense that we do perform an act in exchange to make it a mutual benefit. A true reciprocity is between friends extending a favor and returning a favor. Another example is a business deal.

Doesn’t that mean that sometimes slavery is justified? You did refer to it as slavery and that is the only reason I’m asking this question.