It's how capitalism works: Get the people to focus on their private lives, and get them to believe that every failure, every problem in their lives is their own fault. This way, they will be avid consumers, they will have little insight into their own needs, and they will have little regard for others (other people, other beings, the planet). While those higher up make a lot of money and the planet turns into hell. — baker
No, it wasn’t your choice to be born. No, it isn’t the case that ‘you must’ do anything. Yes, you do have alternative choices to awareness, connection and collaboration: you can always choose ignorance, — Possibility
Yes, I do consider suicide or pessimism to be legitimate choices. I wouldn’t personally make either of those choices at this stage, but I would never say never. — Possibility
I don’t think BEING is supposed to be about survival, subsistence or incorporation at all. That’s the language of consolidation: of an ‘individual’ whose perceived ego appears to be forced into a life they wouldn’t choose for themselves. — Possibility
There’s a sense of attachment to self, here. Bhava Tanha - a craving to be something - comes from a misunderstanding of eternalism/permanence. — Possibility
You are just presenting a false dichotomy here. It's not awareness/connection/collaboration or ignorance. I do have awareness, and that is of having to de facto fall in line, whether I like it or not, lest suicide. That does involve de facto connection and collaboration because of the nature of how we survive and entertain ourselves and that we tend to be social creatures. That isn't anything new. — schopenhauer1
Well, yeah, it is. And that's because life can never be not forced. Sorry but it is. You seem to be saying, "You are forced, no get with the program, otherwise SUFFER!!!" (scare quotes and all). I am saying to reject the agenda and not buy into it, whether with sugar (collaborate, therapy) or shit (buck up, STFU and get to working! Stop griping, etc.)! — schopenhauer1
Yeah yeah, until I start starving and dying of hypothermia and all.. then I have to do things like subsist and survive.. the things you seem to think are a choice. It is, if you want to die a slow death, true.. Not into that either though.. Which is indeed part of the predicament. — schopenhauer1
"Boredom" is analogous to a over-full belly; we're born hungry and always in homeostatic thrall of the prospect of starving until we die, and s/he who is starving is much more afraid than s/he is bored. Schop was too well-fed, I suspect, which is why "boredom" seems so inescapable for him (i.e. his class). — 180 Proof
I’m not talking about an overall judgement of someone as ‘ignorant’, but the little choices we make everyday to increase awareness/ignorance, connection/isolation AND collaboration/exclusion in every interaction. Let’s take your awareness of suicide - you keep skirting around this subject, as if it’s not a legitimate option, but the fact is that you have chosen to dismiss it for your own reasons - this is not forced. Until you explore the choice and your reasons honestly, recognising them as part of what makes you who you are, you will remain relatively ignorant of this apparent ‘force’ you insist is acting from outside of you. — Possibility
Again you misrepresent me - you’re the one adding scare quotes and exclamation marks here. I’m not telling you to get with the program, I just don’t agree with your interpretation of the program as ‘forced’ from outside of the ‘individual’. It is this consolidation of the ‘individual’, and with it the isolation or exclusion of opportunities to increase awareness, to connect and collaborate, that contributes to this idea of a ‘forced agenda’. — Possibility
Subsisting and surviving IS a choice. And you’ve chosen NOT to die a slow death - no-one is forcing you to reject this option, but you. Therefore, you are contributing to your own ‘predicament’. I’m not the one buying into anything here... — Possibility
's a very 'bourgeois trust-fund bachelor' thing to grouse about "boredom". — 180 Proof
Other pessimists like Freddy, Zapffe, Cioran, Camus, Rosset, Sam Beckett, Tom Ligotti ... aren't, IMO, as shallow as Schop on this point. — 180 Proof
The notion of consent is a socio-political notion. So, yes, it is talked about in the world of philosophers, not just Schopenhauer's. There's actually an argument about the formation of a society, say a first society, where adults gather together to talk about the rules and laws. Well and good. But then, after this society is formed, there'd be babies born into this society without the benefit of providing their consent, so what to do if you're one of those babies who become an adult and find that the society you live in, whose rules you didn't consent to, is disagreeable to you.My own addition is that by being born at all we are forced into a socio-culturo-political agenda (lest suicide by slow or fast death). Solution: Griping and self-understanding (consolation through shared Pessimism) and not forcing others into the agenda (antinatalism). — schopenhauer1
I’m not talking about an overall judgement of someone as ‘ignorant’, but the little choices we make everyday to increase awareness/ignorance, connection/isolation AND collaboration/exclusion in every interaction. Let’s take your awareness of suicide - you keep skirting around this subject, as if it’s not a legitimate option, but the fact is that you have chosen to dismiss it for your own reasons - this is not forced. Until you explore the choice and your reasons honestly, recognising them as part of what makes you who you are, you will remain relatively ignorant of this apparent ‘force’ you insist is acting from outside of you.
— Possibility
Oh the "Why don't you pessimists/antinatalists go kill yourself" trope :roll:. You mean being in a position where one has to decide to commit suicide or join the program? — schopenhauer1
Again you misrepresent me - you’re the one adding scare quotes and exclamation marks here. I’m not telling you to get with the program, I just don’t agree with your interpretation of the program as ‘forced’ from outside of the ‘individual’. It is this consolidation of the ‘individual’, and with it the isolation or exclusion of opportunities to increase awareness, to connect and collaborate, that contributes to this idea of a ‘forced agenda’.
— Possibility
Actually, you can have a community of griping pessimists.. collaborating and connecting about the forced agenda! ;). — schopenhauer1
It's being forced with the OPTION in the first place of dying a slow fuckn death or outright quicker suicide..both painful to the leadup and scary for most people unless severely strained/depressed... Don't confuse not committing promortalism with pessimism or antinatalism. It is not an inverse relation.. — schopenhauer1
"Your 'decision' to stay alive means you wanted to be in this position in the first place". I mean, how am I NOT wrong that you are existentially gaslighting the hell out of me? (It's not existence, it's you!). You haven't defended anything, but dug yourself deeper as to what I expected. Pessimism does not entail immediate suicide, mam. — schopenhauer1
Apparently, you can't blame the first people who formed your society for making those rules since you weren't born yet or weren't of age to consent. When you're born into a fully formed society, the first people are not under obligation to ask for your consent. Your consent isn't on a level of their consent. — L'éléphant
Gross misrepresentation of everything that I’ve written. Read it again. — Possibility
Sure - I haven’t said that you can’t. But you’re not really going to increase awareness, connection or collaboration beyond those who already agree. From here, all you can do is promote a certain level of ignorance, isolate amongst yourselves and attack or exclude anyone who disagrees with you... — Possibility
Wow, you really do reduce everything to a false dichotomy, don’t you? But okay...so you’re recognising a fear of death and an avoidance of pain, and acknowledging that you’re not sufficiently strained or depressed to intentionally pull the plug. That’s a start. — Possibility
I agree that your decision to stay alive should not be interpreted as wanting to be in this position. — Possibility
What I’m trying to say is that your pessimism as a qualitative position will always correspond to a particular and limited quantitative value, not to some overall or ‘objective’ evaluation of BEING. An accurate five-dimensional (‘individual’) perspective of BEING would need to recognise a qualitative and quantitative relativity to any measurement and/or measurement device. Not to mention that other ‘individuals’ would need to precisely align with either your qualitative position (pessimism) or your precise measurement of BEING first, before they will agree. Not such a surprise that you don’t seem to be making much headway with your arguments, then...
I’m not trying to defend any particular opposing position as negating yours - just the simple validity of disagreeing with your qualitative position. But I don’t appreciate your continued attempts to misrepresent my position, which is not necessarily in opposition to yours at all. — Possibility
I think you’ve got that backwards. I think meaningless distraction is where boredom stems from. — ”I like sushi”
Freedom is also something to consider. All too often people believe they want more freedom when the real reason they feel bound is that they have too much choice and freedom and so get stuck in perpetual states of distraction. It is extremely common (in my life experience) for the remedy to any given situation to be the exact opposite of what you’d think it would be.
Lack of honesty with oneself creates ‘boredom’ and sometimes such states of ‘boredom’ are defence mechanisms that are there to balance our ‘mental wellbeing’. — ”I like sushi”
I can say with age that boredom seems to fade? I’ve not done a survey on this but it has been my observation for those around me. There may be more of a lull in middle age perhaps but generally I believe boredom declines with greater age. — ”I like sushi”
My post is purely out of socio-political reasons. Consent is attached to that notion. But if you want to talk about obligation of parents to unborn children, that's a different issue. Honestly, I can't think of a way to "apologize" to those born into a bad situation. The only thing that I can think of is the liberty of individuals to happiness, which is in the constitution of most, if not all, nations. This right to happiness includes forming a family and bearing children. Now of course we do have laws to protect the children from harm -- which is obvious to everyone. So, I'm not sure what else to say about that.Yes, this is a common objection that I find objectionable. Since there is no person prior to existing for whom consent can be obtained, it is okay to do X which may lead to future outcomes for a person who actually will exist..
You can see the flaw in that right? — schopenhauer1
How is Schop wrong about the idea that we have a "striving-ness" to us that when not occupied by "something" is sort of idling and cannot stand its own striving nature.. thus returning to "something" (usually de facto related to survival.. whether through "work in an industrialized economy", "hunting-gather", "subsistence farming", and all the other things we as humans must do to survive, find comfort, and entertain ourselves (lest we idle again and try to banish this emptiness feeling). That is to say, we are striving, struggling, getting "caught up" because we cannot stand existence sui existence, but only in so much as we can distract, plan, flow state, etc.
It's also not just "bored" in the sense that we mean with just "nothing to do".. It's a much more fundamental kind akin to Ecclesiastes.. — schopenhauer1
Good point. Boredom afflicts many people in the low economic status. And yes there is bias that goes on about boredom. If you're poor, you can't complain of boredom because "why don't you go out there and find a job or find a way to enrich yourself just like how the rich people do it."Boredom has a bad reputation, and people generally don't think of it in terms of suffering. In fact, it seems perverse to think of boredom as kind of suffering. It seems to be the privilege of the rich and the idle. — baker
Ignore, isolate, exclude... — Possibility
You are implying that with some sort of dialectic, using your New Age Hegelian approach, I would move "past" antinatalism/pessimism (meaning that this isn't the right view, but I will move to the "right" view).. I will move to the view of the agenda.. that is more people born, more people that must "collaborate". Collaborate (happiness placement holder) damn you! Follow the Possibility self-help plan! Collaborate, connect! By my interactions I will "grow" and "grow out of pessimism" because pessimism is a self-contained thing and not "truth" which is only had by this instrumental process of connecting and collaborating, that leads to awareness.. Yes, yes, this isn't subtlely just asserting that your view is just "right" by using terms like "collaborate, connect". Just hollow buzzwords if said without context. However, what is YOUR agenda with these words? Certainly you think that collaborating and connecting would never lead to Pessimist conclusions.. No, no, so it is MORE than collaborating.. but collaborating towards SOMETHING that YOU HAVE IN MIND. What is that? Oh right, I'm sure if we examine it more it's just a form of (Hegelian-style?) optimism bullshit. You can always just dodge this with more obfuscation around your use of those words or more unnecessary and non-analogous connections with how this algins with physics concepts.. but, go ahead continue.. Or am I isolating you, and thus not ":hearing" you and thus I just won't ever "get it".. again implications that YOU have SOMETHING IN MIND MORE THAN just CONNECTION and COLLABORATION! — schopenhauer1
I don’t think BEING is supposed to be about survival, subsistence or incorporation at all. That’s the language of consolidation: of an ‘individual’ [note the quote marks] whose perceived ego appears to be forced into a life they wouldn’t choose for themselves. There’s a sense of attachment to self, here. Bhava Tanha - a craving to be something - comes from a misunderstanding of eternalism/permanence. — Possibility
In other words, you gripe about having been born because you see yourself as a person. If you didn't see yourself that way, you'd have nothing to gripe about. — baker
The idea in this kind of thinking is that we suffer and we are convinced that various unfair things befall us (specifically, having been born) because we construe ourselves as persons, because we take for granted that we really exist, as solid entities (but which are nevertheless subject to birth, aging, illness, and death).
In other words, you gripe about having been born because you see yourself as a person. If you didn't see yourself that way, you'd have nothing to gripe about. — baker
Also, there is a sense of gaslighting going on.. — schopenhauer1
In the vernacular, the phrase “to gaslight” refers to the act of undermining another person’s reality by denying facts, the environment around them, or their feelings. Targets of gaslighting are manipulated into turning against their cognition, their emotions, and who they fundamentally are as people.“
“It’s important to separate gaslighting from genuine disagreement, which is common, and even important, in relationships. Not every conflict involves gaslighting, and, of course, there are healthy and helpful ways to resolve conflicts. Gaslighting is distinct because only one of you is listening and considering the other’s perspective and someone is negating your perception, insisting that you are wrong or telling you your emotional reaction is crazy/dysfunctional in some way. — Dr Robin Stern
You are implying that... — schopenhauer1
Just hollow buzzwords... — schopenhauer1
Certainly you think that... — schopenhauer1
...it's just a form of (Hegelian-style?) optimism bullshit — schopenhauer1
...again implications that YOU have SOMETHING IN MIND MORE THAN... — schopenhauer1
This kind of "detachment will set you free" thing just isn't feasible because I would be a sitting Buddha for eternity if it were true.. But "something" needs to pee.. It's a "body" that this is happening to.. What is the thing that "feels" the need to release the bodily fluid? What is the thing that decides that it will go in a white bowl rather than on the carpet? Oh it's not "me"? Call it what you want, but now it is just word play semantics.. The "consolidation" of decisions, feelings, and behavior is traditionally assigned as "self" or an "I".. You can't get away from it the instant anything is experienced, desired, needed, etc.. (like the feeling of having to go to the bathroom, or pain, etc.). You can do some practice and say, "This feeling is not "me".. but when you wet yourself, crap yourself, and then starve to death just sitting there.. well, doubtful "you" will let that happen.. The instant "you" do something, that becomes a self needing/desiring.. I don't care what was said earlier as some mantra of "this is not me" prior. Eventually you get up.... — schopenhauer1
Gaslighting: “psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator.” — Possibility
Now we can look past all the attempts at emotional manipulation, and address your argument. — Possibility
Yes, every time we act, we must consolidate a ‘self’. — Possibility
But what we experience, desire or need - that is, what we assign value to - remains potentially a matter of choice, from which we determine a ‘self’ as a value structure, — Possibility
It is this ‘sitting Buddha’ (an awareness in potentiality of stillness and no-self) that enables us to employ reason in the determination of ‘self’ rather than being bound by some externally ‘forced’ value structure. — Possibility
Ok, so gaslighting is doing or seeing something crazy and then making the other people think they are crazy for thinking what they witnessed was crazy. So, Trump was a master at gaslighting. He constantly pushed the boundaries of decent presidential behavior and then made everyone else look like they are crazy or overblowing what he just did.. — schopenhauer1
So, for example, the human condition comes with a LOT of inherent and contingent forms of suffering and harm. Yet, what you (albeit subtly) try to do is then say, "No, no, it's not existence that is the problem, it is YOUR problem". Thus I call it "existential gaslighting". It is making what actually is crazy (the pessimistic nature of the human condition) into a personal thing (YOUR problem). Thus things like the ethics of procreation, subjects like the objective understanding of having a willful striving nature, even the complaining about such injustices/tragedies cannot be discussed rationally, you see, because it is all in MY head.. and thus relegated to things like therapy and not philosophy. It is a subtle dismissing of what I am saying by RELATIVIZING it.. — schopenhauer1
I did not subtly try to hint at insinuations that you have something else more than "collaboration, connection, awareness" in mind..as that is a process and you dismiss it when used for things you don't find to your taste (like pessimism or antinatalism), and thus you are actually (subtly again) hinting at a NORMATIVE value more than the three-word process you keep listing off. Your process seems to HAVE to lead to a non-pessimist conclusion.. Interesting how that works. It ends up being something like.. "Your distaste for life is something you should reflect upon.. join the connection club that I espouse, and you will join forces with the GREATER awareness of the whole.. etc. etc." How is this not Hegelian in style? All you have to do is add in the Absolute and you're pretty much there. A big behemoth existential process that humans are a part of leading to ultimate growth... Hegel (though his oddly stopped around the Prussian state in the 1800s rather than infinite growth I guess). Anyways, unintentional or not, I'm characterizing it as such as I see the parallels of group-process optimism. — schopenhauer1
Yes, every time we act, we must consolidate a ‘self’.
— Possibility
You don't have to go any further..This is all that matters for a self to be a de facto necessity. Anything beyond this is hocus pocus. — schopenhauer1
But we still MUST make choices.. The choice-maker is the SELF.. This is all subtle gaslighting, again, to try to say that I should seek therapy and join the "collaboration forces" for your Hegelian whatever, optimism thing.. What you are doing is COMPLETELY overlooking all my griping and just saying, "Hey, that's your problem, not existence's.. it's YOUR CHOICE".. I get what you are saying, mam.. But that doesn't resolve the moral problems of procreation, and the inherent suffering of existence.. No THAT isn't a choice as you KEEP insinuating. — schopenhauer1
It is this ‘sitting Buddha’ (an awareness in potentiality of stillness and no-self) that enables us to employ reason in the determination of ‘self’ rather than being bound by some externally ‘forced’ value structure.
— Possibility
The very fact that I am thrown into this situation at all that I am discussing. Anything, including being a "sitting Buddha" is part of this throwness.. You have the values of the middle-class suppressors here.. "It's all in YOUR MIND" is the way to make people complacent with the existential situation. I think we both agree there is no way out... But I am going to be defiant and not this bullshit, where I place the blame on myself for not "seeing" the bigger picture. Fuck that, mam. — schopenhauer1
Again, you are misrepresenting my position. What I’m saying is that perceiving a ‘problem’ with existence - this pessimistic nature of the human condition - is indicative of a value structure that conceives the ‘individual’ as more important, greater qualitative value, than existence — Possibility
Formal logic insists that only one of these value structures can be our ‘true’ value structure - so it seems as if we’re ‘forced’ to choose between the qualitative primacy of the individual (in which case the problem is existence), or the quantitative primacy of existence (in which case the problem is individual, personal). — Possibility
No - the process leads to... collaboration, connection and awareness - it’s neither pessimistic nor optimistic. If I choose to be optimistic about it - well, that’s my choice, as I’ve said. Repeatedly. — Possibility
You’re playing the victim. And you clearly have no idea what my values are, as you can’t get beyond your own. It’s not about either complacency or defiance, nor about finding a way out, but a way through. This is easier to do when you can imagine the situation from a position already beyond it. — Possibility
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.