models of psychology and brain function can enhance subjective self-awareness — Enrique
We can combine in our present, probably, thinking and experiencing, but, anyway, what we are thinking can never coincide with what we are experiencing; it is always just a copy of some thinkable part of it. — Angelo Cannata
Have you read Penrose's Cycles of Time? I really struggled with it. — Down The Rabbit Hole
I've still got to read Hoffman's The Case Against Reality. I think you said it was so-so? — Down The Rabbit Hole
Balance has to be reached between personal and civic commitment, a compromise that respects subjective experience while not detracting from the possibility of objectivity. — Enrique
There is no point in establishing in advance what science is unable to reach, but also there is no point in thinking that science, sooner or later, has the potentiality to master absolutely everything. This claim would mean exactly forgetting the existential perspective I suggested. — Angelo Cannata
I wrote a long paper that I hope to publish soon which goes into way more depth about fundamental physics of the brain — Enrique
but this preliminary stuff should give you a good idea of where the science of consciousness is headed post-initial Orch-Or. — Enrique
The most essential aspect of consciousness, if we really want to avoid ambiguity and confusion, is the one that is impossible to talk about: it is your own experience about yourself, your perceptions, your emotions, whatever you perceive inside you. The moment we talk about it, we aren’t talking anymore about it, because we have immediately automatically selected, isolated, those aspects that we can talk about, leaving apart what is impossible to communicate, that is, the real experience of consciousness — Angelo Cannata
The topic is fascinating and I hope we will one day be capable of understanding consciousness materially, from the subatomic to macroscopic to "nonlocal" levels, allowing researchers to come up with medical cures and sociocultural palliatives for stigma that help all kinds of individuals and demographics. — Enrique
Complicated stuff. Penrose's recent discussion with Jordan Peterson is one of my next things to watch. — Down The Rabbit Hole
Been recently getting into a bunch of physics history. Wasn't me that said it! Haven't read that book. — Enrique
I cited it and linked to it in my thread: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12828/the-penrose-bounce
Definitely worth watching! I personally think Jordan was a little out of his depth but I think he got a lot from the exchange. — universeness
Still not impressed by him, especially his poetic religious beliefs and right-wing unpleasantness. — Down The Rabbit Hole
Desperate times call for desperate measures!
Microtubules & consciousness! Wild would be an understatement. Clearly, we're in a dark room, blind, wearing shades and looking for a black cat which isn't there. — Agent Smith
Oh my, did you hear of a desperate person who wanted to say we revolved around the sun? I mean, its plainly obvious by looking in the sky that it revolves around us. The need to escape God's glory, and our singular importance as human beings in this world is a mental illness for sure!
I think you get the point. The inquisitive and curious mind does not mock attempts at discovery, but always gives it a chance. — Philosophim
When both Penrose and Hameroff chose terms like 'ORCHestrate' and 'like an orchestra tuning up' and 'musical composition/arrangement,' I was immediately reminded of string theory. I wonder if interdimensional vibrating strings could be the fundamental at work within microtubules and dendrites? — universeness
Consciousness is something I need to read up on. I am more inclined to the view that consciousness isn't anything special (a la Dennett). Any book recommendations? — Down The Rabbit Hole
As for electromagnetism, I subscribe to the "electron sea" model. What we rudimentarily call electrons are complex density contours induced by nuclear etc. force that shift around at relativistic speeds as coherent states, roughly analogous to a body of water in the case of solutions, an elastic, multimolecular crystal in the case of solids, etc. Coherence is not in my opinion a fundamentally electromagnetic phenomenon: electric field condensation is induced by nuclei acting on the comparatively nonlocal substrate to produce loci of highest density we know as atoms, which interact at the speed of magnetism and light, but parts of the field not knotted up by nuclei can perturb and transmit energy at much faster rates. — Enrique
Is this not related to quantum field theory? — universeness
Listening to Mr Penrose, I hoped that he would give some tangible examples of how his theory-system of consciousness works. Well, he didn't. As no one else who has a scientific theory or explanation does. It's all theory. Not a single example. No application in everyday life. — Alkis Piskas
I think the Penrose-Hameroff Orch-Or theory as initially proposed was regarded as implausible because the brain is too hot and wet for molecular superpositions exceeding more than a dozen or so atoms, even in microtubules.
This has turned out to be a false hope. Quantum phenomena appear to occur in noisy systems all the time, it's just harder to measure them and figure out how they work. — Count Timothy von Icarus
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