If you haven't already, read the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus with Aristotle's "first principles" in mind — 180 Proof
At some point you just choose an ending, if not, then you would never conclude anything. — Sam26
"Inference or proof is parasitic; it requires knowledge by other means which it can then use to extend what is known." — Sam26
Say what?So "human minds" are human minds-dependent "facts"? — 180 Proof
Exactly! :smirk:Say what? — Gnomon
Oyxmoron.MIND-DEPENDENT FACT
I also don't imbibe 180 proof Materialism. It's bad for your mental health; even for those who don't believe in immaterial Minds. :joke:Clearly, Gnomon, you don't drink bleach – no doubt because the "representation" of its toxicity corresponds sufficiently with the bleach's "ding-an-such" for you to heed the poison warning label. Anti-realism (i.e.immaterialism) is demonstrably bad for your health — 180 Proof
Yes. Evolution weeds out un-fitness, but useful (pragmatic) "illusions" (models of reality) are fit-enough to pass the survival test. Donald Hoffman doesn't deny that there is a real world out there. He just argues that our mental models of reality are based on limited information & experience. He uses the analogy of computer screen icons as abstract & simplified symbols of the underlying complexities hidden inside the processor.If evolution is to succeed with humans, it has to balance reality with illusion, hit the sweet spot so to speak just so that we stay alive long enough to transfer our genes to the next generation. Wicked! — Agent Smith
Given the choice truth or survival, we've been programmed to opt for the latter. A delusion/illusion can make the difference between life and death and hence the abundance of cognitive biases which, though leads us away from the truth, keeps us safe and sound — Agent Smith
The Case Against Reality : — Gnomon
Now for the philosophical point (remembering that I don't care what Catholics think, I only care about what makes sense - which seems very different). — Bartricks
Not "given." False dichotomy. 'Partial truths' have survival value; in fact, most of our "truths" are only partial / approximate, ergo fallibilist. Adaptive organisms are selected for traits which are effective enough (e.g. truthful enough) for finding food, mates and fending off predators long enough to reproduce profligately. The further removed from evolutionary pressures, the greater the opportunities to extend the scope of "truth"-making/telling beyond managing / satisfying the requirements of bare survival. Natural selection, Smith, generates only suboptimal solutions, and those which are effective enough tend to survive.Given the choice truth or survival, — Agent Smith
A thousand apologies. — Ranjeet
An interesting perspective! It reminded me that lower animals have no illusions. For example, an ant is not concerned with "Truth", and doesn't worry about "Death", but only with what works right here, right now. Homo sapiens is a different animal though. Our rational ability to project here & now into the near future, causes us to worry about things that are not things, and about events that may never happen. We sometimes treat those imaginary possible futures as-if they are the wolf at the door. That's the root of most anxiety disorders. But the stoics among us understand, that if an imaginary wolf is at the door, all we need to do is not open the door.Given the choice truth or survival, we've been programmed to opt for the latter. A delusion/illusion can make the difference between life and death and hence the abundance of cognitive biases which, though leads us away from the truth, keeps us safe and sound. — Agent Smith
Don't give up on us yet. I hope our good qualities are not being "discarded". But sometimes one talent comes to the forefront, and another recedes. For example Darwinian Evolution emphasized the role of competition in the "struggle for survival" : mano y mano ; one-on-one. But other naturalists, such as E.O.Wilson, saw that cooperation within cohesive systems (Group Selection) was a major factor of evolution. The "honing" process works in more ways than one, to "maintain" a balanced system.Perhaps I speak too soon - the circumstances are such that some of the traits we possess can't be identified as good/bad for survival; are some qualities we possess being maintained/honed/discarded? Only time will tell I guess. In addition we seem to have created a quasi-Matrix-like artificial world for ourselves with its own set of rules and only a handful will survive for more than a few hours out in the wild. — Agent Smith
That's why we need to be reminded by thinkers like Kant and Hoffman, that we have no way of knowing Absolute Truth. — Gnomon
Is that your humble way of implying that, contra Kant, you do have personal access to "absolute truth"? What "trick" are you referring to? Do you think that Empirical Science reveals "absolute truth" that is hidden from "arrogant" philosophers? :smile:I see. So is that an absolute truth ? Or just a guess ? Just 'appearance' or 'phenomenon' ? Does the person a in private dream somehow figure it out ? And assume that everyone else must also be in a private dream ? But isn't this just more of that private dream ? Mere illusion ?
The trick is its vainglorious humility, its wilting arrogance. — Pie
Kant vs Scientific Rationalism - Do we need the Ding an Sich? :
Science deals with what we can perceive (empiric knowledge = empiric truth), not with the Ding-an-Sich. We don't have access to it, and reaching it is not the goal of science, it is impossible. — Gnomon
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