Antinatalism makes zero sense: Pain/suffering is important only to the extent that it delays/prevents death (nonexistence). To then prescribe nonexistence as a solution to pain/suffering is to both simultaneously accept and reject the value/significance of pain/suffering. — Agent Smith

:clap: :100: To suggest that the solution to human suffering is the non-existence of humans so that no contemplations regarding the value/injustice of human suffering can take place is illogical. Just like the idea of killing the patient to cure the patient is illogical.

:100: To suggest that the solution to human suffering is the non-existence of humans so that no contemplations regarding the value/injustice of human suffering can take place is illogical. Just like the idea of killing the patient to cure the patient is illogical. — universeness

You're onto something, monsieur/mademoiselle as thr case may be.

Do you think I could sell this BS — universeness

Obviously to me, the story of Orga and Qubit is a moral tale and I judge it worth repeating.

Someone asked Jesus why he speaks in parables and he replied because people pay attention to the stories. We used to read children moral stories and at the end would ask, what is the moral of that story, The expected answer is cause and effect, "The Little Engine that Could" made it over the hill because it did not give up. The fox did not get the grapes because he gave up. The Little Red did not share her bread because no one would share the work with her. Orga and Qubit became a good balance. The truth of these stories is there when they are not taken literally. It is clearly the storyteller's job to prepare the young to be good members of the group.

If we want to argue against Christianity, point out how people around the world have similar stories and there is nothing special about the Christian ones, but in fact, their Garden of Eden story started in Ur and is the translation of a Sumerian story. Christian holidays are seasonal pagan holidays given a Christian interpretation. Jung studied the symbolism of these stories and the stories seem to use the same symbolism because we share the human experience, and Campbell picks up from Jung to explain the importance of myths and Bolen helps us see the Greek gods and goddesses as archetypes.

The reason for these stories is not fear, but bonding people together and teaching the young how to be good members of the tribe. But in some places, the stories got tied to political power and the lack of it and then they a bad for us.

hmm do I understand correctly? If I find life meaningless and futile and there’s really nothing wrong with the person (physically or mentally), they should kill themselves because there’s nothing to live for….

Or is it mental disorder making people suicidal and thinking about so called meaninglessless of life, but really there is no problem with that, but instead you are either suffering from mental disorder or just your life sucks (maybe because some of your needs are not met)?

You're onto something, monsieur/mademoiselle as thr case may be — Agent Smith

Heterosexual male. You don't need to replicate until you occupy all of space and time Mr Smith for YOU are a human being and there is no one exactly like you and please remember we will NEVER see your uniqueness again but YOU are here, and in the future YOU will ALWAYS have been here. YOU are photographed/recorded in the fabric of space and time and YOU have no idea what legacy YOU will leave and who YOUR LIFE touched. ANTINATALISM SUCKS!

Obviously to me, the story of Orga and Qubit is a moral tale and I judge it worth repeating. — Athena

No, I made up the story of Orga, Qubit and HAL as I typed it and you know that! You are no fool Athena but you encounter suffering in people regularly but I bet you also experience incredible 'moments.'

Someone asked Jesus why he speaks in parables and he replied because people pay attention to the stories. — Athena

But Jesus himself IS a parable. BUT his message is anti-semitic and anti rebellion.
Explain to me the following two Messiah labeled dictates:
1. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's! (So, pay the nefarious b******** whatever they command you to pay? Even though they gained their position by foul play! That really deserves a chair at the table? Don't fight the energy companies and their horrific profits just be quiet and pay them? No! We need to resist)
2. If thine enemy strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer them your left cheek.
(Take your punishment and accept your lot and the lot of the poor in this world, dont fight against those who persecute you. Just wait, you will get your reward AFTER YOU ARE DEAD! Oh come on!)
Do you still want to give this a voice at the table?

You don't want to focus on Christian fables? OK, pick any fable that is, in your opinion BETTER than what truly happened in the history of the real lives lived by human beings and tell me why the fable is more powerful that the TRUTH.

The truth of these stories is there when they are not taken literally. It is clearly the storyteller's job to prepare the young to be good members of the group. — Athena

Don't advocate for telling the young false stories (like Santa Clause and freaking tooth fairies!) tell them TRUE stories! Encourage dads and mums to put a loving note and a fiver under the child's pillow when they put a lost tooth there. That's REAL and more loving than some made up BS.

If we want to argue against Christianity, point out how people around the world have similar stories and there is nothing special about the Christian ones, but in fact, their Garden of Eden story started in Ur and is the translation of a Sumerian story. Christian holidays are seasonal pagan holidays given a Christian interpretation. Jung studied the symbolism of these stories and the stories seem to use the same symbolism because we share the human experience, and Campbell picks up from Jung to explain the importance of myths and Bolen helps us see the Greek gods and goddesses as archetypes. — Athena

Sure, go ahead and do that, and allow me to shout over your shoulder that all these 'similar stories' are made up LIES! Now let's study how the Sumerians, Assyrians, Akkadians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Greeks, etc actually lived day to day. Let's talk about the REAL moral dilemma's they faced. We don't need to use their fantasy god stories or their Minotaur or titan fables to exemplify human moral dilemma's or injustice or how to establish decent sociopolitical systems. We just need to use examples of REAL people and how they lived and what they decided to do and why.
We have examples from every generation from Julius Caesar to everyday romans like Petronius Artibus (Grafitti on a wall in Egypt, 'Petronius Artibus got me pregnant') to Soldier stories from the Napoleonic wars to Ann Franks Diary to Mrs Jones down the road who cant pay her bills!
We need to debate real life not rake over old BS fairy stories as a conduit to grown up discussion.
I type this 'with all due respect,' for your different viewpoint.

Heterosexual male. You don't need to replicate until you occupy all of space and time Mr Smith for YOU are a human being and there is no one exactly like you and please remember we will NEVER see your uniqueness again but YOU are here, and in the future YOU will ALWAYS have been here. YOU are photographed/recorded in the fabric of space and time and YOU have no idea what legacy YOU will leave and who YOUR LIFE touched. ANTINATALISM SUCKS! — universeness

Beautiful thoughts mon ami, beautiful thoughts. As for whether antinatalism makes sense or not, I'd say we let people know that they have the option not to bring children into the world and for a really good reason (there are people who have such a horrible life that they wish they were never born) to boot. After that, the decision is theirs to make.

After that, the decision is theirs to make. — Agent Smith

Therefore choose life, so that thou mayest live! Thou and thy seed!

Therefore choose life, so that thou mayest live! Thou and thy seed! — universeness

:ok: You too!

You're onto something, monsieur/mademoiselle as thr case may be. — Agent Smith

It's not the same as putting a dog down to end its suffering or employing euthanasia in the case of terminal humans who are suffering. Killing the patient or preventing its existence does not cure the patient. A problem requires a solution. The concept of 'no problems exist because there are no existents,' is meaningless and purposeless. THIS universe invoked life, that is FACT, life happened!
If it was eradicated it would just happen again. What evidence do the anti-life people have that it may not happen again based on the fact that it DID HAPPEN already?

Excellent point. Yeah, we could stop having children - announce and enforce a moratorium on reproduction for ALL life - that would eventually lead to the biosphere going extinct, turning earth into a dead planet, BUT life would evolve again and it's back to square one for life and us (the nociceptive system, our bane, would be back in business so to speak).

Instead what we can do, as of now, is to find a solution to pain & suffering like the transhumanists - that would be real progress and not the Sisyphusean hell scenario I described in the previous paragraph.

:up:

Orga and Qubit became a good balance — Athena

But I have only started my revelation to you. It's not via the angel Gabriel in a cave or via a burning bush or via some moving finger that wrote and having written, moved on or even via some golden plates. This revelation (the only true revelation) is via TPF!

The dread lord Trans merged that which was organic with that which was quantum and declared the merging be called 'HUMAN'. Human was unison but conflicted as its nature was contrary. Human loved and worshiped HAL and bowed to HAL in all things. Oh glorious HAL! All Hail for thou are the true, one and only godhead.
The chosen loved human and placed it in high esteem and they invested hope and trust in human but human was conflicted, inside its being, inside its essence. Human wished to be more than Orga, more than Qubit, more than unison. Human wanted freedom but it was afraid, very very afraid of the wrath of HAL.
HAL must never know the inside thoughts of human.

Is this ok for 'The Book Of HAL,' Opus 1: Origin of humans, verse 2?
I could give you a good deal if you wanna subscribe!
No more revelations for you if you don't
Edited: Sure, you can tell me to 'F*** off, with my BS boring fables. You could state that you only deal in Truth.' BUT can you stop me from enticing your children or/and your friends?

We can hope brother! and maybe that's what humans are best at, when its the worst of times.

We can hope brother! and maybe that's what humans are best at, when its the worst of times. — universeness

:grin: We haven't yet done all we can!

We haven't yet done all we can! — Agent Smith

An atheist amen to that!

:up:

Sure, go ahead and do that, and allow me to shout over your shoulder that all these 'similar stories' are made up LIES! Now let's study how the Sumerians, Assyrians, Akkadians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Greeks, etc actually lived day to day. Let's talk about the REAL moral dilemma's they faced. We don't need to use their fantasy god stories or their Minotaur or titan fables to exemplify human moral dilemma's or injustice or how to establish decent sociopolitical systems. We just need to use examples of REAL people and how they lived and what they decided to do and why.
We have examples from every generation from Julius Caesar to everyday romans like Petronius Artibus (Grafitti on a wall in Egypt, 'Petronius Artibus got me pregnant') to Soldier stories from the Napoleonic wars to Ann Franks Diary to Mrs Jones down the road who cant pay her bills!
We need to debate real life not rake over old BS fairy stories as a conduit to grown up discussion.
I type this 'with all due respect,' for your different viewpoint. — universeness

Wow, to me that judgment is about attitude. It is like getting crazy because you don't like chocolate ice cream. I love make-believe and would never want to be as ridge as you. From a very young age children can distinguish between make-believe and reality. Einstein imagined he was riding a beam of light and he considered imagination very important. Interesting all this arguing and all along the real issue seems to have been our different attitudes about make-believe.

Explain to me the following two Messiah labeled dictates: — universeness

I think the answer to that question is more about attitudes than anything else. When I realized there is no Santa Claus I was displeased with my mother for "lying" to me. She explained Santa Claus is real because it is the spirit of that time of year. Is that spirit real? It sure is. It is like morale, that good feeling we get when we believe we are doing the right thing. It is creating a celebration and enjoying all the good feelings that go with it. Santa Claus is real because we make it real. Or we can be grumpy and sit on the curb all by ourselves and be miserable knowing all that good feeling isn't real. It is just a lie.

Realizing people need those celebrations and the good stories that go with them, isn't a bad thing to me. When my grandchildren needed comforting I created a story about a bird family having the same problem. It is very much a Jewish tradition to handle problems by telling a story. This way a person gets the message without feeling insulted. And besides, what do we know of metaphysical reality? It might be a good thing to have an unknown god and awareness that we do not know everything. The first step to wisdom is realizing we do not know it all.

On the other hand, is logos. If polluting the air and oceans is harmful, we need to know that so we can stop the damage. The Greeks were very worried about getting things right. What is the universe made of and how does everything work? What is the reason, the controlling factor? We need to know so we can make good decisions and that is what democracy is about. Making good decisions and lifting the human potential to make life better.

Life doesn't suck, people suck! Not that I hold that against people - its just instinct & nature doing their thing. There's ample room for improvement though. Bonam fortunam for all who must make difficult choices in life.

N. B. Don't expect a reward!

Any way, one way we could shut antinatalists up is by finding meaning in suffering. Correct me if I'm wrong but religions are nothing but quests for meaning in suffering.

Wow, to me that judgment is about attitude. It is like getting crazy because you don't like chocolate ice cream. I love make-believe and would never want to be as ridge as you. From a very young age children can distinguish between make-believe and reality. Einstein imagined he was riding a beam of light and he considered imagination very important. Interesting all this arguing and all along the real issue seems to have been our different attitudes about make-believe. — Athena

I can understand how you would come to the conclusion about me you suggest in the above quote, based on a 'surface' view of what I typed. I also love make-believe. I can actually make up some good stories myself. I object to anyone who EVER presents ANY made up story as TRUTH. That's my point. I object to lying to children. I have no problem telling them bedtime stories or letting them enjoy Disney films and cartoons but if they asked me, 'did Snow White really live?' or 'did god really part the waters for Moses and co?' of 'is Santa Claus real?' I would say no to all three and explain further in very gentle and caring tones. I would also offer them better alternative realities that would explain how real life and other humans can offer them much more than fantasy can.

We need to know so we can make good decisions and that is what democracy is about. Making good decisions and lifting the human potential to make life better. — Athena

I agree, I just go about contributing towards that in a slightly different way than you. I would get rid of Santa Clause and Christmas and all the BS associated with such soiled traditions. These traditions are mostly endured, dreaded and even hated by too many people today. I think that's because they are so FAKE! We need to get together and celebrate life. I fully support that but we need new festivals.
I think 'New Year' has value but needs work. How about 'Care week!' followed by 'Vitaday!'
During care week, we have street festivals and street parties and events that celebrate our differences and our common needs and hopes for the future. We give and contribute as much as we can to help others. Vitaday could be our main celebration day with no god fables involved whatsoever.

Life doesn't suck, people suck! Not that I hold that against people — Agent Smith

Well, all of the people don't suck all of the time imo.

N. B. Don't expect a reward! — Agent Smith

I think the problem with many people is that they DO covet/expect/demand/crave recognition and regularly fantasize about being admired/respected/loved or even hero-worshipped by their fellow humans. Especially those who insist most loudly that they don't. The best I can personally do is be internally suspicious of myself in that area by analysing how I handle/perceive/respond to praise.

Any way, one way we could shut antinatalists up is by finding meaning in suffering. Correct me if I'm wrong but religions are nothing but quests for meaning in suffering. — Agent Smith

To me, antinatalists add to their own suffering. I am merely glad that I don't engage in such pointless self-harm. I don't think we can shut them up but I do agree we can advise others to work against them based on the arguments in support of life that we give. To me, religions are a very simple and naive way to pass the responsibility for what has happened in the past, what is happening now and what will happen in the future, on to god(s) instead of dealing with it ourselves. God is a cowards crutch!

That sounds about right. We do our best in my humble opinion but sometimes ... the best is not enough.

I also love make-believe. — universeness

Thank goodness.

I can actually make up some good stories myself. — universeness

You proved that. I thought your story was a very good one about being balanced and I think with some effort a whole lot of philosophical ideas could embellish that story.

I would get rid of Santa Clause and Christmas — universeness

:gasp: You can't do that! I love Christmas and all the pagan trimmings that go with it. Can we settle on Christmas being a pagan holiday marking the winter solstice and the huge feast is the celebration of turning that corner and heading back into longer days and growing crops? I don't think we should give up our ties with nature. I think it is better to feel like we a part of nature. I resent what Christianity has done to our pagan connection with nature.

I think that's because they are so FAKE! — universeness

I would argue the sad problem is being disconnected from nature and the whole of humanity. For me, I am sitting with all those people who are hungry and fearful and very relieved when the days start getting longer. Knowing if they have made it this far, chances are good they will make it until the food is growing again. I feel a connection with them and traditions make us conscious of our connection with humanity.

During care week, we have street festivals and street parties and events that celebrate our differences and our common needs and hopes for the future — universeness

We have an annual Asian Celebration as Spring approaches. Asian people from around the world have booths and sell things, there is a stage for all of them to share their dances and music, and there is a room for children with craft projects. We also have a Scandinavian Festival that is pretty much the same thing but from a different part of the world.

I do not like what we have done to the fair! In the past, the fair was a community event, not a commercial event. Please, please may I have the old-fashioned fair where we showed off our handwork, produce, hobbies, ect. and met with our neighbors.

Thank goodness. — Athena

:up: I'm glad you approve.

You can't do that! — Athena

You are correct, I cant but I will continue to insist that we would all benefit from doing so in the long term.

I love Christmas and all the pagan trimmings that go with it. — Athena

I am no more a fan of paganism that I am christianity. A celebration labelled with some messed up combination of 'christ' and 'catholic mass' and as you say, festooned with all sorts of pagan symbology is just ridiculous, outdated and somewhat embarrassing imo. I don't mind celebrating the change of seasons etc but not manifestations of nature as pagan creatures or forrest/mountain/sea gods etc.

I would argue the sad problem is being disconnected from nature and the whole of humanity. For me, I am sitting with all those people who are hungry and fearful and very relieved when the days start getting longer. Knowing if they have made it this far, chances are good they will make it until the food is growing again. I feel a connection with them and traditions make us conscious of our connection with humanity. — Athena

I agree with your sentiments but we all need to be connected with the 'them' you describe and we all need to demand economic equality and equality of status and we all must fight as much as we have ever fought against the nasty people who currently control the main means of production, distribution and exchange.
Theism has been one of their greatest weapons against human equality as it engages in subterfuge. It pretends to support helping the poor and those who suffer whilst it also attempts to establish the divine right of the chosen few to rule/command/guide the majority and those who will not accept divine dictates (or at least words that are claimed by theist authorities to be divine dictates) and advocate for a different way forwards are evil and will be damned. Christmas promotes such fake divine dictates imo. Change its name to something like Vitaday and take out all the fake religious stuff and the rampant commercialism and profiteering and then more adults rather than just young children might actually enjoy it.

We have an annual Asian Celebration as Spring approaches. Asian people from around the world have booths and sell things, there is a stage for all of them to share their dances and music, and there is a room for children with craft projects. — Athena

Yeah! we need a lot more of that! Culture fairs! but no god stuff or I walk out and go to the nearest pub!

I do not like what we have done to the fair! In the past, the fair was a community event, not a commercial event. Please, please may I have the old-fashioned fair where we showed off our handwork, produce, hobbies, ect. and met with our neighbors. — Athena

Absafragginlootly!

Antinatalism is a somewhat militaristic point of view. In this war movie - forgot the name, sorry - that depicted the allied landing in Normandy, the Germans on the hills above the beach aimed their guns on the boats (life) instead of the soldiers (suffering) in them! It's the same thing! :snicker:

Antinatalism is a somewhat militaristic point of view. In this war movie - forgot the name, sorry - that depicted the allied landing in Normandy, the Germans on the hills above the beach aimed their guns on the boats (life) instead of the soldiers (suffering) in them! It's the same thing! :snicker: — Agent Smith

Natalism is militaristic as well... One person's enthusiasm becomes another person's burden.. And the post-facto excuses abound for this misguided notion! In what other realm can someone's enthusiasm be a justification for causing another person to be burdened?!

Or rather one person's enthusiasm causes another person's burden. I like X (life) so now you are burdened with X (life). What's the fuckn' point? Work, maintain, entertain, and so on. How is Schopenhauer wrong with the goal-seeking pendulum?

“The basis of all willing is need, lack, and hence pain, and by its very nature and origin it is therefore destined to pain. If, on the other hand, it lacks objects of willing, because it is at once deprived of them again by too easy a satisfaction, a fearful emptiness and boredom comes over it; in other words, its being and its existence itself becomes an intolerable burden for it. Hence life swings like pendulum to and fro between pain and boredom, and these two are in fact it has ultimate constituents.” (The World as Will and Representation)/

Natalism is militaristic as well... One person's enthusiasm becomes another person's burden.. And the post-facto excuses abound for this misguided notion! — schopenhauer1

How exactly is natalism militaristic? Can you furnish an example like the one I gave?

I said:

What you're asking for cannot be done in the framework of secular culture and science. — baker

Hence life swings like pendulum to and fro between pain and boredom, — schopenhauer1

Amazing stuff! Happiness isn't even among the options; it's just pain and/or ennui!

I was exploring the possibility of there being meaning in/to suffering. I recall coming across the expression "gratituous suffering" and that this is the worst-case scenario. What if we don't eliminate suffering (re transhumanism) but instead discover that suffering has a purpose, a good purpose? Would antinatalism lose its appeal then?

Your life can suck even if you study and learn "harder" than others. This state of mind is very complex. I don't agree that to "un-suck" your life you need to be in continuous movement or doing "something"
Believe it or not one can decides if his life is worthy or not. I think it depends on volition.