If one ceases to exist on death, then there is no "what it is like" to be dead. Hence fear of being dead is irrational. — Banno

Indeed. Irrational fears often have the biggest hold on us.

When I've worked with people dying and in palliative care, it used to surprise me how often it is religious folk who are most scared. It's said that faith provides comfort, but often it seems to provide discomfort along with apocalyptical, haunted visions.

If your roller coaster car as past the zero slope zone and you're headed downward, I don't know if aversion is still part of it. Maybe if a person has unfinished business? If they never learned to live? So they're still looking for a chance at authenticity (as if they would take it if you handed it to them.)

I see a lot of people die. Even old people are sometimes afraid if their minds are still there. I figure some people have so much love for life that they cling to it till the very end. That's kind of cool. — frank

Nice. Food for thought.

How deep and transformative is the well documented fear of death? The fact that one’s life must end is understood to invoke in most people a kind of existential terror. — Tom Storm

The fear of death may take several forms. I might feel an existential dread at the thought of annihilation, just because it cannot compute in the context of being alive. I might feel anxious because of the ineliminable mystery that the fact of death presents us with. I might be concerned that I have not realized my potential or that death might take me while I still have unfinished business. Death may be fearsome because it represents paradigmatically my powerlessness. Or I may just be afraid of the process of dying; the pain and sense of aloneness it can bring.

It’s often argued that all the achievements and struggles of life mean nothing if it all ends in blackness. How so? Aren’t the moments themselves worthwhile? Is eternity the only criterion of value? This seems ugly to me. — Tom Storm

If we live well, we never stop learning, and growing spiritually in the sense of overcoming shortcomings. If we think of this as a hard-won process of progression towards freedom, liberation or enlightenment, then its being cut short seems absurd and may make it seem like it was all for nothing, as whatever wisdom was gained will all be lost at death if it is nought but annihilation. For the creative person this wisdom may be embodied in their creations, but they too will be all but forgotten unless they are renowned, and even then the ultimate end will be oblivion.

Heidegger famously wrote, “If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself.” — Tom Storm

As I read Heidegger his notion of death does not refer (predominately at least) to physical death, but to the closing off of many possibilities that comes with committing oneself to anything. Of course actual death, if it is annihilation, is the ultimate closing off of all possibility. Committing oneself to something means the death of many other possible courses of action, but it also means the opening up of the possibilities that come with whatever one has committed oneself to.

I don’t fully understand notions of ‘being free to become myself’ - sounds like a 20th century existentialist trope. Even though death is not a concern to me, I'm not sure I have a better grasp of my becoming, or an enhanced feeling of freedom as a consequence. — Tom Storm

Being free of the concern about the closing off possibilities inherent in commitments allows one to commit, and without such commitment, whatever form it may take, one cannot become who they are, cannot fulfill their potential, but will be endlessly seeking distraction, so as not to have to make any commitment. It has been said that those who are afraid to die are afraid to live, and I think there is truth in that.

Spinoza says ( paraphrased), "A free man never thinks of death" and this may seem, on the face of it, to be the antithesis of Heidegger's "being towards death". But perhaps it is not; perhaps being genuinely free of concern about death (having thought it through to the end, as opposed to distracting oneself and refusing to think about it) just is the mark of the free person, who has transcended such concerns.

So, an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? Does that resonate? — Tom Storm

Yes, provided the acceptance is real and not merely a pose or delusive simulacrum.

Was Montaigne right to say, 'To philosophize is to learn how to die.' — Tom Storm

In the light of what I've been saying, I would say 'yes', because to learn how to die is to learn how to live. That said, we are embodied beings and I think there will always be a visceral fear of pain and suffering, and pain and suffering may be inevitable in the process of dying. There may well also be a visceral fear of not being, simply because we only know being.

Anyway, congratulations for presenting a most significant OP. In some respects I think it is the only question which really matters.

Thank you, and thank you also for your nuanced, thoughtful reply.

As I read Heidegger his notion of death does not refer (predominately at least) to physical death, but to the closing off of many possibilities that comes with committing oneself to anything. — Janus

That's an interesting angle. And I have often felt this way myself as I have made my choices and a part of me dies...

Spinoza says ( paraphrased), "A free man never thinks of death" and this may seem, on the face of it, to be the antithesis of Heidegger's "being towards death". — Janus

All these associations between death and freedom are curious. I get it, but the formulation is striking.

I might be concerned that I have not realized my potential or that death might take me while I still have unfinished business. — Janus

I think this is often true for older people who want to see the future. When my mum was told she had two weeks to live she was angry, not scared or upset. Just plain furious. 'Now I'll never know what happens,' she practically spat at me. When there's a family narrative you have been delighting in, it must be hard to leave it all behind.

to learn how to die is to learn how to live. — Janus

Nice. It's like a philosophical ouroboros

That's an interesting angle. And I have often felt this way myself as I have made my choices and a part of me dies... — Tom Storm

This fits into my thread here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14164/existentialism-vs-personality-types

Perhaps your choices are constrained, to some degree, by personality anyways. Thus existentialism has some opposition with personality type theory. That someone perhaps is bound to have tendencies of patterns that lead to decisions.

Same thing.

A new study examines all robust, available data on how fearful we are of what happens once we shuffle off this mortal coil. They find that atheists are among those least afraid of dying...and, perhaps not surprisingly, the very religious.
— Study into who is least afraid of death — Banno

From the study:

...over half the research showed no link at all between the fear of death and religiosity. — Study into who is least afraid of death

the rushing by of time as we age is because the vast machinery of a personality has long been assembled and is now settled and has been running without much trouble — green flag

Apparently the speed with which time appears to pass is based on physiology. The body has a "time-passing-sense" (probably operating in the brain stem) and as we age, it slows down. As it slows, our perception of time speeds up.

On the other hand, this month of March has NOT been passing swiftly by. It is dragging, like it should be the middle of April by now. Maybe the weather? It's been a cold month and every day snow is still sprawled all over everything.

The body has a "time-passing-sense" (probably operating in the brain stem) and as we age, it slows down. As it slows, our perception of time speeds up. — BC

No kidding? That's wild.

The body has a "time-passing-sense" (probably operating in the brain stem) and as we age, it slows down. A — BC

I that right? I always thought time appeared to speed up because as you age a year represents only a small percentage of time you have already experienced, compared to when you are young and one year represents a significant percentage and feels like an aeon.

Well, it's certainly the case that for younger people (I don't know, under 25? 35?) there are more new experiences in life -- if one is lucky -- and the many novel experiences one has make life very interesting, and time seems to pass faster. For the aged (anyone over 35) there are fewer and fewer novel experiences and time seems to drag. But the body's clock can be (it seems to me has been) tested, and there seems to be a pattern of slower time perception with age.

"busyness" may also figure into this. Many people maintain a high level of 'busyness"which will help them to avoid boredom or self examination. It isn't just a few people - millions and millions strive to be busy at all times, seems like.

No kidding? I have about a 52% confidence level that my theory is correct.

Harvard's Science In The News says:

As we age, he argues, the size and complexity of the networks of neurons in our brains increases – electrical signals must traverse greater distances and thus signal processing takes more time. Moreover, ageing causes our nerves to accumulate damage that provides resistance to the flow of electric signals, further slowing processing time. Focusing on visual perception, Bejan posits that slower processing times result in us perceiving fewer ‘frames-per-second’ – more actual time passes between the perception of each new mental image. This is what leads to time passing more rapidly.When we are young, each second of actual time is packed with many more mental images. Like a slow-motion camera that captures thousands of images per second, time appears to pass more slowly.

And I have often felt this way myself as I have made my choices and a part of me dies... — Tom Storm

Yes, I think this is part of the deal of being human.

So, an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? Does that resonate? — Tom Storm

From an old thread "Should We Fear Death?"
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/456624

It’s often argued that all the achievements and struggles of life mean nothing if it all ends in blackness. How so? Aren’t the moments themselves worthwhile? Is eternity the only criterion of value? This seems ugly to me.

Another post from an old thread "What happen after you no longer fear death? What comes next?"
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/450016

What do others think about the role of death in their lives and the concomitant role it plays in their philosophical speculations. Was Montaigne right to say, 'To philosophise is to learn how to die.'

Yes, from Plato originally. And influenced, or informed, by even more ancient Dharmic paths to moksha. Here's a recent post ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/791990

edit:

Excerpt of another old 'meditation' ...

... human extinction; ineluctable nothingness – the radical contingency of the species, its fossils & histories, and our bloodied parade of civilizations – an echo of sighs & moans, laughter & screams fading even now and forever into oblivion. Music is made of silence, which merely interrupts with sudden soundscapes, each piece (i.e. an ephemeral world) ending like raindrops in the ocean. It's terrible knowing, feeling bone deep, that everything and everyone [ ... ] one day very soon in the cosmic scheme of things will be utterly forgotten as if all of it, all of us, had never existed. — 180 Proof

From an old thread "Should We Fear Death?"[/quote]

Death as eternal return... I should have realized there'd be more threads on this.

I like what you said here:

What we do with fear – how we use fear is what matters, and not the mere affect. Ask any boxer who's about to step into the ring or fireman on his way to a five-alarm blaze or soldier as she's being deployed in an active combat zone. Fear is either your ally or the enemy, either you use it to drive you onward or you give it the chance to recoil and/or paralyze you. — 180 Proof

Fear, a double edged sword. Ditto for acting and public speaking.

Fear, a double edged sword. Ditto for acting and public speaking. — Tom Storm

:up:

There are no 'jubilant afterlifers' in foxholes. :smirk:

Heidegger famously wrote, “If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself.” — Tom Storm

I am experiencing another death in my world.
Several months ago, I found out that my cousin and friend was dying of cancer, stage 4. (too young to be dying) I also heard that he didn't want to go on with the treatment. I knew him. We were friends as young teens. Then we separated after high school. He moved away. That was the last time I spoke with him, although I held him close to my heart.

He was an atheist at a very young age, and that got him in trouble within our family circle. The adults didn't like him. He was very vocal about atheism, and how he hated backward mentality. He became very successful in life, through hard work. That earned him even more hatred among relatives and families. What?? A blasphemous psycho owns a commercial building? I was prevented from communicating with him. :sad: Our families have become so political, it's made me angry. Maybe I'm a coward, too, by not being able to go against it.

When I tried to get his phone number so I could talk to him for the last time, I was met with indignation. I was met with silence. All texting stopped and no one was communicating with me. Days ago, I had a feeling of dread - out of the blue. He must have died already. I resolved to grieve for him, even in silence.

Z, this is for you -- Je t'aime. I hope your journey was worth it. You are courageous.

PS: @Tom Storm, thanks for this thread. Sorry, if I hijacked it. I needed an outlet for this emotion.

:pray: :up:

My condolences. :death: :flower:

What do others think about the role of death in their lives and the concomitant role it plays in their philosophical speculations — Tom Storm

Perhaps the fundamental issue is the transitoriness of life, not death itself? Perhaps death merely forces us to confront the fact that life is transitory?

I’m in my 70s. The world of my childhood is gone. It’s a memory. What do I recall of my tenth year of life? Very little. And hardly anything of my first year. I recall more of my high school years, but that world is gone, too. The building itself has been torn down. Many classmates are no longer here.

What did it all mean? True, it contributed to who I am today. But if I lived eternally, the contribution would become less and less. At age 1,000, what occurred in my tenth year of life might not matter much. At age 1,000, I would have had much opportunity to resolve any traumas from my early years. At age 1,000,000, I’d expect the impact of my first few years to be minimal, even infinitesimal.

If everything I experience is eventually forgotten and everything I accomplish is eventually gone, then what is the point of my life? If I find religion’s answers unconvincing, the question may lead me to philosophy.

Fear of death may prompt us to address the transitoriness of life. Once we have made our peace with that fact, then death may be easier to accept.

If everything I experience is eventually forgotten and everything I accomplish is eventually gone, then what is the point of my life? — Art48

Yes, I think that summarises my understanding of how many people feel about death. I have the reverse reaction - if life is evanescent and everything is eventually forgotten, then the moment matters more. But I have never held a view that there is any 'point' to life other than the experience you're having now.

It’s often argued that all the achievements and struggles of life mean nothing if it all ends in blackness. How so? Aren’t the moments themselves worthwhile? Is eternity the only criterion of value? — Tom Storm

If everything I experience is eventually forgotten and everything I accomplish is eventually gone, then what is the point of my life? If I find religion’s answers unconvincing, the question may lead me to philosophy. — Art48

I think it's a great hypothesis. The fear of God Time is the beginning of wisdom philosophy.

I remember letting go of God and afterlife at about age 18. Life becomes a dream, a rollercoaster ride.

People work hard and go to college to be this or that honored and wellpaid whatnot, and in general we connect intelligence with prudence and the maximization of long term reward. But our anticipating mind is 'shattered' as it looks too far forward. Is a brief span superior to the long span ? Does not such an assumption convert time into space ? Or time into money ? Death makes havoc of all our certainties, or something like that.

if life is evanescent and everything is eventually forgotten, then the moment matters more. — Tom Storm

Yes. There is a similar religious view that we can experience God only in the present (for us, the past and the future exist only in our thoughts and memories), so we should try to live in the present. Buddhist monks have a similar view. I read once that most people will habituate to a bell that rings periodically, but that some Buddhist monks do not; their brain waves show they hear each ring, as would be expected from someone who is paying attention to the present.

I read once that most people will habituate to a bell that rings periodically, but that some Buddhist monks do not; their brain waves show they hear each ring, as would be expected from someone who is paying attention to the present. — Art48

That is interesting. I live two doors down from a church which has an hourly clock tower bell. I never hear it going off. Never. Perhaps if I were a Buddhist it would drive me crazy...:wink:

The fear of God Time is the beginning of wisdom philosophy. — green flag

Wonder in spite of "fear" – the shock of 'appearing and disappearing' – may spark deliberative reflections; absent wonder, however, I think "fear" itself just reinforces superstitions.

if life is evanescent and everything is eventually forgotten, then the moment matters more. — Tom Storm

:fire:

Wonder in spite of "fear" – the shock of 'appearing and disappearing' – may spark deliberative reflections; absent wonder, however, I think "fear" itself just reinforces superstitions. — 180 Proof

Excellent point! Reminds me of Sheldon Solomon's team's work. Reminders of destruction seem to influence people to cling more tightly to their wider 'tribal' identifications. As far as I can make out, this is basically what spirituality is, so it's just a matter of how sublimated or elevated or expansive those identifications are.

But I do remember a wild night with [various substances] that threw me into total death terror. I managed with the help of philosophy and myth to steer that terror into overflowing love. I had to forgive/accept my own death, experience myself a straw dog, rusty pipe, melting candle. Very strange to veer from terror into ecstatic joy. I might have scrawled god is love is death. But I sobered up. I don't think mortals can stay in such extreme states for long. Hardware won't allow it.

One could maybe define terror as fear intense enough to shatter the ego.

Excerpt of another old 'meditation' ...
... human extinction; ineluctable nothingness – the radical contingency of the species, its fossils & histories, and our bloodied parade of civilizations – an echo of sighs & moans, laughter & screams fading even now and forever into oblivion. Music is made of silence, which merely interrupts with sudden soundscapes, each piece (i.e. an ephemeral world) ending like raindrops in the ocean. It's terrible knowing, feeling bone deep, that everything and everyone [ ... ] one day very soon in the cosmic scheme of things will be utterly forgotten as if all of it, all of us, had never existed. — 180 Proof

Ah yes, a beautiful description of that abyss that terrorized me that night. We usually (if lucky?) find ourselves absorbed in the play of life ('falling immersion').

This reminds me of Ecclesiastes but more vivid. Which is not to say the KJV isn't a masterpiece.

***
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

:fire:

an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? — Tom Storm

When Socrates, in the Pheado, says philosophers "practice death", he meant that, as death releases the "soul" from the body, so do philosophers release pure truth from the deceptive body, distracting desires, opinions, biases, etc. Cicero believed we should "meditate" on death, and Montaigne picked that up in saying: "Where death waits for us is uncertain; let us look for him everywhere. The premeditation of death is the premeditation of liberty; he who has learned to die has unlearned to serve." Essay #20. His point being that if we are not afraid of losing life, we are free to live it.

Ignoring death--not being afraid of it happening, of our losing life--can look like we are focusing on "life". We are "in the moment" and pursuing "feeling alive"--Derrida refers to this, I believe, as Presence. However, if you ask any psychotherapist they will tell you that we do not fear death so much as we fear life.

It has been said that those who are afraid to die are afraid to live.... — Janus

Perhaps dread is a terrified resistance to the endless rush forward of life, as if one note from the horn refused to die to make way for the next.... Is the expansion of identity precisely the destruction of its pettier identifications? — green flag

Emerson believed that we grew in partial circles which we had to close in order to form each version of our self. The picture is an adolescent becoming an adult, first having any and every opportunity open to them, but then stepping into the world and becoming a lawyer, etc. It's also pictured as the time before speaking (before suffering I think the Buddhist would say), when our experience of the world can be immeasurable, and so fitting that into a word is a kind of violence, and expressing it to others is putting it on the record--as if thought were alive and writing was dead.

As I read Heidegger his notion of death does not refer (predominately at least) to physical death, but to the closing off of many possibilities that comes with committing oneself to anything. — Janus

So I would agree that "not fearing death" is not to ignore it, or think of it always, or to focus on "living", but to have the courage to define ourselves in committing to form and structure and institutions and the judgment of others; to speak despite the inadequacies of our expressions and still be held to our words as if all that we are was in them, with everything else dying each time.

Ignoring death--not being afraid of it happening, of our losing life--can look like we are focusing on "life". We are "in the moment" and pursuing "feeling alive"--Derrida refers to this, I believe, as Presence. However, if you ask any psychotherapist they will tell you that we do not fear death so much as we fear life. — Antony Nickles

Nice. Yes I think fearing life is definitely the key problem that I see in my work. But fearing life is actually fearing things like decisions, rejection, responsibility, commitment and consequences, etc.

I've tended to find that most things said about life and death by philosophers and poets leave me cold.

But fearing life is actually fearing things like decisions, rejection, responsibility, commitment and consequences, etc. — Tom Storm

:up:

Also injury, disease, and violence. In general: suffering including humiliation and loss of power.

Emerson believed that we grew in partial circles which we had to close in order to form each version of our self. — Antony Nickles

:up:

Good image!