• Benj96
    2.3k
    Okay so, if we imagine 2 twins occupying the same spatiotemporal point throughout their entire life, (which is physically impossible in the universe obviously) so let's say hypothetically we put them in 2 identical/parallel universe set ups.

    We would expect them to see, hear, think say and do everything simultaneously with one another. There would be absolutely no variables between them.

    They would be in perfect synchrony. Genetically the same, environmentally the same, experientially the same. The same person +their life duplicated twice.

    Then if we say, changed one tiny aspect for one of the twins universes, for example made them 3 minutes late for the bus to school that day. The synchronicity between the 2 end. The environment is no longer identical, then their experience, thoughts and behaviours butterfly out from that point on in a different direction.

    It seems strange then to think that really the only difference between two identical twins minds, is the variation conferred by the act of separation itself.

    From the moment the zygote split and became two embryos, every variable between the two from that point on, shaped the ever increasing differences in memory, experience thought content, behaviour and appearance /health of the individuals.

    Even their DNA starts to slowly diverge, a mutation here in one twin but not the other, activation of a gene there in one but not the other, etc.

    By the time the twins are old, they look, think and feel more different to one another than they probably ever did.

    The point of this is that, "subjectivity" is a must in any 2 or more conscious beings occupying a 4 Dimensional system. No matter how similar 2 conscious entities are, no matter how many variables you remove, their minds will never be shared, their thoughts never synchronic.
  • Ying
    397
    Complex systems are highly sensitive to even minute differences in initial conditions as illustrated here:



    You don't even need that 3 minute bus spiel for the systems to diverge at some point. They will do that on their own naturally.
  • Vera Mont
    4.3k
    One twin typically gets a 10-20 minute head start. Two or three minutes, if they're delivered by cesarean section. Plus, every time the cells divide, there is a potential variation. Even with clones.
  • sime
    1.1k
    You are implicitly referring to the logical paradox concerning the identity of indiscernibles.

    The potential existence of indiscernibles, e.g perfectly identical twins who lead perfectly identical lives, except for their space and location, seems to imply that materialism cannot be reconciled with the subjective concept of self-identification in a way that would be acceptable to a materialist.

    The materialist has several options with regards to his understanding of self-identification, but none of the available choices seem to look attractive to him:

    1) He could accept the identity of indiscernibles and identify his 'self' as being the possibly infinite collection of physically identical selves that exist at different spatio-temporal locations throughout the universe; each of the physical entities in this collection not only has qualitatively indiscernible experience from one another, but is in fact the same experience, i.e. there is one psychological 'token' of experience shared between many physical lives.

    The materialist presumably finds this option barking mad, for not only does it seem a bizarre proposition, but it seems to undermine the whole point of materialism, namely to explain the self as a physical token that is part of the causal nexus, rather than as an abstract and non-causal type of physical entity that is related to the causal nexus via dualism of some sort. It also goes without saying, that this choice also would play havoc with his understanding of science in general.

    2) He could accept the identity of indiscernibles as above, but argue that the material universe is such that there are no actual physical indiscernibles. But this seems physically speculative and amounts to neo-Kantianism that goes against the grain of materialist epistemology (should a materialist be deducing materialistic implications from introspective a priori arguments?) This option also completely fails to address the underlying metaphysical problem concerning whatif there were indiscernible selves?

    3) Alternatively, he could reject the identity of indiscernibles, by arguing that the spatio-temporal position of an individual is an internal property of the individual's mental state. But in this case it seems that he must either

    a) give up the claim that the experiences of his self are explainable by causal laws, for his spatio-temporal position per-se has no causal relevance with regards to his experiential content, or

    b) he must reject the Cartesian assumption that selves exist, whereby it is trivially the case that spatio-temporality is an internal property of the self-as-universe. But in this case, what is left of materialism seems dangerously close to idealism and even solipsism, that the materialist presumably wishes to distinguish and distance his beliefs from.
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