Perhaps not 'bred better' but certainly a lot more of the global population has access to a lot more info than in the past, and we can communicate more, as you and I are demonstrating now, on this thread. — universeness

Make up your mind what you're measuring, human evolution or access to satellites? They don't progress in the time-frame or scale.

I am not such a fan as gandhi was, in HIS notion of love, as he employs it above, but I fully agree with his use of 'truth' above. — universeness

At what points in history have which 'truths' won what conflicts?

Make up your mind what you're measuring, human evolution or access to satellites? They don't progress in the time-frame or scale. — Vera Mont

Measure everything in every way we know how to and then see if we can find new ways to measure everything again. Access to satellites does not happen before human evolution, so there is a very definite time order to such events. I am measuring what I would call 'change' in the options available to humans alive today, compared to, in much earlier times.

At what points in history have which 'truths' won what conflicts? — Vera Mont

That's a very big and somewhat subjective list you are requesting. I can offer you one set of 'points in history' that I would put near the top of my list for being 'truths' that ultimately 'won' a human conflict.

First Servile War (135−132 BC) — in Sicily, led by Eunus.
Second Servile War (104−100 BC) — in Sicily, led by Athenion and Tryphon.
Third Servile War (73−71 BC) — on mainland Italy, led by Spartacus.

These rocked the Roman empire to it's core. Events such as the English civil war, all revolutionary wars, the American civil war, WW I, WW II, all contributed to the eventual human victory against human slavery. State sanctioned slavery is now, globally, almost non-existent. The 'truth' that 'civilised' humans reject enslaving other humans has been 'won' imo, with global slavery now reduced to embers of what it once was. All humanity past and present can be proud of that 'victory.'

Measure everything in every way we know how to and then see if we can find new ways to measure everything again. — universeness

That way you can pick out all the cherries from the present and prove to your own satisfaction that they are better cherries than the coconuts of the past were. (and vice versa, as required)

These rocked the Roman empire to it's core. Events such as the English civil war, all revolutionary wars, the American civil war, WW I, WW II, all contributed to the eventual human victory against human slavery. — universeness

Affectionate bombs, guillotines and spears; honest land-mines, mustard gas and man-traps won those wars? News to me. Slavery, incidentally, is alive and well.

The number of people in modern slavery has risen significantly in the last five years. 10 million more people were in modern slavery in 2021 compared to 2016 global estimates. Women and children remain disproportionately vulnerable.

https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_855019/lang--en/index.htm

Child soldiering is a manifestation of human trafficking when it involves the unlawful recruitment or use of children—through force, fraud, or coercion—by armed forces as combatants or other forms of labor. Perpetrators may be government armed forces, paramilitary organizations, or rebel groups. Many children are forcibly abducted to be used as combatants.

https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/

One form of coercion used by traffickers in both sex trafficking and forced labor is the imposition of a bond or debt. Some workers inherit debt; for example, in South Asia it is estimated that there are millions of trafficking victims working to pay off their ancestors’ debts.

That one man is the one the entire nation, according its its acknowledged, sworn-by and much vaunted constitution, by its established electoral process, through the changes of its culture, selected to lead the whole nation and represent it among the world's nations. — Vera Mont

The interruption of the constitution changes as the culture changes.

Trump was very frustrated with the limits put on him. I am sure Bidin is dealing with a lot of frustration too. For a long time the US democracy has looked like a disaster to me, as one president things in motion for a certain outcome and the next president dismantles what the first on put in place, as Reagan dismantled the alternative energy efforts made by Carter. And Trump disbanded the organization for dealing with pandemics that Obama put in place. And none of these men acted alone but were chosen and supported by special interest groups.

The US Constitution is clear about the government staying out of special interest business but global economic and military changes have glued governments to special interest. And the one president is reacting to forces far beyond the control of anyone. Yuk, this is politics. How can we be philosophical about this? How about logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe?

I offer gun control as an example of cultural control. The reason different states have opposing points of view about gun control is they have different cultures that promote the mentality of gun ownership of oppose the mentality of gun ownership. The abortion issue is also one of opposing cultures.

How I used them was: materialistic people are concerned with possessions and social status; spiritualistic ones are concerned with the personal 'soul' or 'essence' and its relation to the supernatural. — Vera Mont

I think that is the general understanding of materialism but being materialistic or spiritual has a different meaning beginning with Aristotle.

What was Aristotle say about matter?
For Aristotle, matter was the undifferentiated primal element; it is that from which things develop rather than a thing in itself. The development of particular things from this germinal matter consists in differentiation, the acquiring of the particular forms of which the knowable universe consists.

Form | philosophy - Encyclopedia Britannica — Encyclopedia Britannica

So for Aristotle, reality is a matter of matter, not gods and spirits. That line of thinking goes with Democritus.

What is Democritus known for? Democritus was a central figure in the development of the atomic theory of the universe. He theorized that all material bodies are made up of indivisibly small “atoms.” Aristotle famously rejected atomism in On Generation and Corruption.

Democritus | Biography & Facts - Encyclopedia Britannica — Encyclopedia Britannica

That pulled the Greeks away from superstitious thinking where creation is about gods and spirits. They determined sickness and things like epilepsy occurred for physical reasons, not because gods made these things happen. Water becomes H2O, not a spirit being. Spirits do not live in trees. It goes with arguments against there being a God and Satan and angels and demons. Does that make sense? Being spiritual is believing in spirits. :gasp: But not exactly as the ancients believed in spirits. Oh dear, this is pretty paradoxical. Back to Aristotle.

Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form. This doctrine has been dubbed “hylomorphism”, a portmanteau of the Greek words for matter (hulê) and form (eidos or morphê). Highly influential in the development of Medieval philosophy, Aristotle’s hylomorphism has also enjoyed something of a renaissance in contemporary metaphysics.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/form-matter/ — Stanford

Aristotle's teacher was Plato and Plato gave us his understanding of forms. For Plato changeable earth is not the ultimate reality, but there is a realm of perfection. Plato being an important source for Christian thinking. Like the Catholic invasion of Islam's territory, lead to the West rediscovering the ancient Greek and Roman classics and the Church picked up Aristotle and Plato to support Chruch doctrine.

The Church developed Scholasticism and brought the West into the Renaissance, the return of the intellectual advancements of ancient Greek and Romans.

Wow, all that thinking is melting my brain. This thread is about culture and culture gives us our understanding of reality. Important to consider without education in Greek and Roman classics we do not have the culture that came out of the Enlightenment when educated people were literate in the classics. Christianity did not give us democracy with liberty and justice. Our democracy comes from the classics.

The interruption of the constitution changes as the culture changes. — Athena

Indeed. And the US one has improved its provisions for equality of citizens under the law. But it has not guaranteed translating those improvements into a steady improvement law-enforcement, social services or political access to all citizens equally. It has not resulted in a consistent improvement in leadership over time. The arc of that history is all over the place, not upward.

I think that is the general understanding of materialism but being materialistic or spiritual has a different meaning beginning with Aristotle. — Athena

Okay. And how does Aristotle etc. relate to a linking of materialism with militarism in a society?

That way you can pick out all the cherries from the present and prove to your own satisfaction that they are better cherries than the coconuts of the past were. (and vice versa, as required) — Vera Mont

You can use fruity and nutty analogies if you choose Vera, but they are a rather simplistic attempt to diminish the points I am making and are unsuccessful in that goal imo.

Affectionate bombs, guillotines and spears; honest land-mines, mustard gas and man-traps won those wars? News to me — Vera Mont

That's your interpretation of the points I am making to connect the ancient servile wars and the revolutionary wars, civil wars and 2 world wars since? You think my main goal was to impose human emotions such as 'affection' and human traits such as honesty on to weapons that kill people?
That's a rather bizarre conflation, to say the least.

10 million more people were in modern slavery in 2021 compared to 2016 global estimates.

Is that 10 million out of 8 billion and is that slavery as nasty as it was in Roman times.
Out of an entire Roman Empire population estimate of 50 million, an estimated 5 to 10 million, were slaves. Do you still think 'modern slavery' is anywhere near as bad as slavery in ancient times?

Your point regarding child soldiers pales when compared to ancient abuse of children.

Your point regarding sex trafficking pales even more in comparison to sexual abuse within ancient civilisations.

You have allowed your 'jadism' to blind you to the fantastic improvements that historical altruists, socialists and humanists have achieved. You prefer to hype what still has to be done, instead of (at least also) celebrate what has been achieved and celebrate those who still 'fight the good fight.'
Better to hype the fact that they have a brilliant legacy, they can look back on, to inspire them to vigorously continue to 'finish the job,' started by good people, who died in their millions, fighting for a better human experience, thousands of years ago.
The pain/disappointment of your current jaded outlook, is your burden.
Why do you want to export it to others?

Affectionate bombs, guillotines and spears; honest land-mines, mustard gas and man-traps won those wars? News to me — Vera Mont

That's your interpretation of the points I am making to connect the ancient servile wars and the revolutionary wars, civil wars and 2 world wars since? — universeness

Victories of the way of love and truth is what I questioned, and your response was a bunch of terribly destructive wars, in which neither love nor truth played any significant role. All wars are won and lost through anger, violence, hate and weapons. Whether they get bigger or smaller over time doesn't seem to affect the means employed in fighting them.
What difference does it make how many slaves Rome had ? Modern India has 18.3 million. I don't think Gandhi could sell this as a victory for love and truth.

Do you still think 'modern slavery' is anywhere near as bad as slavery in ancient times? — universeness

For whom? The 9-year-old soldiers or the girls abducted to serve in brothels?

You have allowed your 'jadism' to blind you to the fantastic improvements that historical altruists, socialists and humanists have achieved. — universeness

No, I'm not blind. Good people do good now, as they did in other times; bad people do harm, as they did other times, and this been known for a long time: Ecclesiastes 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

Civilization is not in one of its improving phases at the moment. The second half of the 20th century was a veritable dream of social, scientific, technological and economic progress for a certain segment of the human population, but much of that improvement was at the expense of the other 90%. Moreover, those hallmark wars in the first half, the concentrations of power they established and the ensuing broad sweep of capitalism over the world, laid the foundations for the gross endangerment of the following century. So, here we are on the down-slope. And it's a steep one. Maybe with closed eyes is the most appropriate way to ride it out; pink goggles probably the next best. (I have hopes for a future - just not a very near one.)

The pain/disappointment of your current jaded outlook, is your burden.
Why do you want to export it to others? — universeness

I suppose because I still have a tiny spark of optimism left: I still have some dim flicker of hope that if we acknowledge the truth of our times, we might still be able to avert, or at least mitigate the worst outcomes. that's exactly what some of the best, most altruistic, truth-serving people are attempting to do now - they're too busy to celebrate past victories.
It is, admittedly, a very, very small spark.

Victories of the way of love and truth is what I questioned, and your response was a bunch of terribly destructive wars, in which neither love nor truth played any significant role. — Vera Mont

On the contrary, I think truth and love played thee most significant role, from the standpoint of the slaves in revolt. Love of freedom, love of justice. The truth (to them at the time) that death is better than slavery, or the truth that risking their own lives to fight against slavery was the right cause to choose.
The truth that if they did not fight, then they had no future and neither did their children.
The truth that fighting the bas***** felt better, than obeying them as masters. I could go on......

All wars are won and lost through anger, violence, hate and weapons. Whether they get bigger and smaller over time doesn't seem to affect the means employed in fighting them. — Vera Mont

I agree, but there comes a point when 'If they want WAR we will give them WAR!'
Like you, I sooooooooooo wish that war would NEVER EVER happen again, but the problem is that the nefarious will not give up their status, power, or privilege, by any other means than 'out of my cold dead hands.'

What difference does it how many slaves Rome had ? — Vera Mont

Level or impact of atrocity is sometimes a numbers game Vera, you know that.
15,000 children die every day for preventable reasons. If those 15,000 all happened in New York every day, then the global reaction would be a lot different, yes, so sometimes it's not even ONLY a numbers game, there are far worse reasons for the apathy of many people.
Taking the smallest estimate for the Roman Empire of 10% of their population in slavery. If that were true of the worlds population today, especially is the West, then we would still be in a global war, imo.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." — Vera Mont

Sure, there are many garbage passages in the bible. The Sun itself 'formed' and there was a time that it did not exist, yet other objects did exist. So did the writers of this dumb book not know that?
The planets formed under the sun and were new, The dinosaurs were new, humans were new, the bible is mostly utter inane BS and you know it.

OK then. I'll just "put out the light and then put out the light. "

I suppose because I still have a tiny spark of optimism left: I still have some dim flicker of hope that if we acknowledge the truth of our times, we might still be avert the worst outcomes. It is, admittedly, a very, very small spark. — Vera Mont

I am vigorously blowing on them embers you still have Vera. I'm away to get some kindling to help.
You can help if you want! Our side NEEDS everyone we can get!!

You can help if you want! — universeness

I'm doing the part I feel capable of doing. At this time of life, that doesn't amount to much: feed stray cats, grow tomatoes, reduce my carbon footprint and write books.
And fcs, stop blowing on me!

I prefer the definition of democracy as governance of, for and by the people. — universeness

That is from Percile's funeral speech during Athens's war with Sparta. Lincoln repeated it during the civil war. But as many love to point out, Athens had slavery and immigrants did not have citizenship rights and women did not have political power, yet Athens was a democracy, as the US was a democracy when it had slavery and women could not vote. So there is an ideal and a less-than-perfect reality?
And we have a problem coming to an agreement on what that ideal is.

You have some eccentric views of what might still be labelled as 'democratic' or 'partially democratic.'
I demand undiluted democracy and any intermediate state of affairs means the fight continues.
Promising Athenian men a vote if they role play galley slaves is not 'introducing democracy as a right in law. It's a compromise for nefarious reasons which can be removed without the democratic mandate of the entire population, just like Rode vs Wade was removed in the USA. — universeness

My information came from the book "Pericles Of Athens And The Birth Of Democracy" by Donald Kagan.

What do you think was the alternative to not defending Athens from the Persian invasions? It is not being a slave to defend against an invasion. The Athens that became the role model for democracy would not have existed if they had not successfully defended against the Persians. Unlike religion, a democracy is always evolving. This is a good thing and it can be a bad thing because change can result in problems. Change makes things unstable. Forgetting what culture has to do with democracy leaves our democracy undefended.

Tying politics to religion is very problematic and we have done that because war is good for religion and religion is good for war. The US decided to pit itself against communism and has it mobilized against communism by calling the communist godless people and building on the notion that God favors the US and the US should serve this God and we go on to fight against evil in the mid-east in complete ignorance of the economic reason for these cold and hot wars. We are no longer a nation of thinking people because we stopped preparing for that when we adopted education for technology and left moral training to the church.

If you are going to demand something, it should be education and preparing the young to be good citizens. Without that education, they will not be "democracy as governance of, for and by the people".
We should demand education for democracy and replace the autocratic model of Industry with the democratic model.

I suppose because I still have a tiny spark of optimism left: I still have some dim flicker of hope that if we acknowledge the truth of our times, we might still be avert the worst outcomes. It is, admittedly, a very, very small spark. — Vera Mont

There is a lot of good happening but it doesn't make news. I am blown away by how we think everyone should have a good life and all the things we are doing to assure people have that opportunity. We are not only feeding our own families but desire to feed the world. We rush in when another country has an earthquake or famine. Europeans have stopped making war on each other. And we have problems, but we also have more knowledge than ever before, and the internet that can spread knowledge very rapidly and connect us in discussions of what is so and what should be. Unfortunately, an atomic war could throw us back into a dark age. Or global warming could mean the end of reality as we know it. We do face serious problems but we also have a lot of good going on.

Indeed. And the US one has improved its provisions for equality of citizens under the law. But it has not guaranteed translating those improvements into a steady improvement law-enforcement, social services or political access to all citizens equally. It has not resulted in a consistent improvement in leadership over time. The arc of that history is all over the place, not upward. — Vera Mont

I think this failure is all the non-democratic things going on and number one is we stopped transmitting the culture for democracy. We are powerless if we do not understand the ramifications of adopting the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology, and dropping classical philosophy in favor of German philosophy. You know Hegel and the nation is God and all must be forced to obey the state and Nechzie supermen who have the right to violent rules because they are so superior.

The change in bureaucracy gives government much more power than it had before the change, but, this power to take care of the people, also takes away their power. The change in education goes with the change in the new bureaucratic order because we no longer rely on strong individuals and great leaders, but instead, we have committees that set policy and from there everything is controlled by policy. This creates a headless beast. Nothing can be done without an act of Congress.

Now we all our institutions are organized by German models and we prepare citizens to rely on authority and obey. Education is preparing the young to fit into the mechanical society they have become.

Tocqueville, the despot that Christian democracies would become.

After having thus taken each individual one by one into its powerful hands, and having molded him as it pleases, the sovereign power extends its arms over the entire society; it covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated, minute, and uniform rules, which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot break through to go beyond the crowd; it does not break wills, but it softens them, bends them and directs them; it rarely forces action, but it constantly opposes your acting; it does not destroy, it prevents birth; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, it represses, it enervates, it extinguishes, it stupifies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.

I have always believed that this sort of servitude, regulated, mild and peaceful, of which I have just done the portrait, could be combined better than we imagine with some of the external forms of liberty, and that it would not be impossible for it to be established in the very shadow of the sovereignty of the people.

https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-form-of-despotism-the-government-would-assume-in-democratic-america-1840 — Tocqueville

I'm doing the part I feel capable of doing. At this time of life, that doesn't amount to much: feed stray cats, grow tomatoes, reduce my carbon footprint, and write books.
And fcs, stop blowing on me! — Vera Mont

Write books? What is your subject?

Whoops time to go. I get a lot from the government, so I feel obligated to give back by volunteering, and frankly, I don't know how long I keep doing this. At my age medical problems have increased my maintenance cost and Medicare is covering them. I owe my country a lot.

Or global warming could mean the end of reality as we know it. — Athena

Not could - is doing so.

As of Tuesday morning, there are 87 active wildfires in the province with 24 out of control

Rivers swollen by days of downpours flooded some towns in northern Italy on Tuesday, forcing some residents to rooftops, while in Venice, authorities prepared to activate a mobile barrier in the lagoon in hopes of sparing the city from a rare May high-tide flooding.

Rising sea level

The same forces that sunk the remote islands could put
coastlines around the world at risk, scientists say.

Both tornado reports and tornado environments indicate an increasing trend in portions of Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky.

As glaciers around the world recede rapidly owing to global warming, some communities are facing a new problem: the sudden disappearance of their rivers.

Guess what all these weather upheavals are doing to human populations!
5 facts on climate migrants
[url=http://How water shortages are brewing wars]How water shortages are brewing wars[/url]

I owe my country a lot. — Athena

So do I. Unfortunately, I can't volunteer at the library anymore, but we still give away books every summer.

What is your subject? — Athena

Utopia, atm. Of course, the more i goof here, the slower my editing goes.

At this time of life, that doesn't amount to much: feed stray cats, grow tomatoes, reduce my carbon footprint and write books.
And fcs, stop blowing on me! — Vera Mont

You forgot 'and I post on discussion forums.'

Sorry Vera. I did not intend to cause an uncomfortable gale around you. :joke:

That is from Percile's funeral speech during Athens's war with Sparta. Lincoln repeated it during the civil war. But as many love to point out, Athens had slavery and immigrants did not have citizenship rights and women did not have political power, yet Athens was a democracy, as the US was a democracy when it had slavery and women could not vote. So there is an ideal and a less-than-perfect reality?
And we have a problem coming to an agreement on what that ideal is. — Athena

I agree that we have had much diluted versions of what might qualify for the governance label 'democracy' but none in history or now that satisfies the level of democracy we need, imo.

My information came from the book "Pericles Of Athens And The Birth Of Democracy" by Donald Kagan. — Athena

I don't refute your sources or what they say, I am just complaining, that what they called democratic, stretches the valid use of the label a little to far for me.

What do you think was the alternative to not defending Athens from the Persian invasions? It is not being a slave to defend against an invasion. The Athens that became the role model for democracy would not have existed if they had not successfully defended against the Persians. Unlike religion, a democracy is always evolving. This is a good thing and it can be a bad thing because change can result in problems. Change makes things unstable. Forgetting what culture has to do with democracy leaves our democracy undefended. — Athena

I think people will fight much harder when they believe in the cause they are fighting for and not because they have been bribed by money or promises that may or may not be honoured. Mercenaries were never liked by any side of a conflict. There IS often NO alternative to defending against an invader.
I disagree that if the Persians had conquered and subsumed Greece completely into their empire, that the world would be much different, than it is today. Democracy would have still risen to something similar to where it is today. Perhaps only some of the names and prominent stories would change.
Maybe the middle east would be more prominent today that the West but i don't think that would matter much.

If you are going to demand something, it should be education and preparing the young to be good citizens. Without that education, they will not be "democracy as governance of, for and by the people".
We should demand education for democracy and replace the autocratic model of Industry with the democratic model. — Athena

I broadly agree with the content of your quote immediately above. I would just not use the Greek civilisation, as any kind of important part of the curriculum of increased (free) education opportunities, you rightly suggest, are required to help build a better future for all.

You forgot 'and I post on discussion forums.' — universeness

I assumed you knew. Anyway, I don't think of it as a contribution so much as an excuse to skive off work.

Anyway, I don't think of it as a contribution so much as an excuse to skive off work. — Vera Mont

I think exchanging your viewpoints on discussion forums such as TPF, means more to you than an excuse to skive off work. I think you still want to influence others, because that does still really matter.
That's why I post here anyway.

I think you still want to influence others, — universeness

Of course I want to.... But I don't have those binoculars that let me mistake wishes for horses.

Of course I want to.... But I don't have those binoculars that let me mistake wishes for horses. — Vera Mont

Just keep making the points you make and keep on truckin!
Guys and real stories like this, make me appreciate things more!
DAVE AND THE OCTOPUS


I enjoyed watching Dave and 'Eve was framed' last night in:

I concede: our culture has some good bits, just like our altruistic endeavours.

There is a vast universe to explore, but can we earn the privilege to do so? — universeness

Too anthropocentric. The universe, my friend, is extremely inimicable to complex organisms outside of their miniscule, watery envelopes of powerful magnetic fields in 'Goldlock's Zones' like Earth. Outer space is for the machines; virtual space is for (our) species. At most, we're tele-explorers (i.e. remote viewers (e.g. space telescopes, Martian rovers, Jovian probes, etc)). AGI—>ASI may be "our guardian" one day ... :nerd:

I only ever watched a handful of B5 episodes back in the day, maybe 1-2 each season; all I remember is being bored by the characters, derivative space operatic metaplot and the cheezy CGI. From what I've read in recent years I don't feel I'd missed much.

What a sweet Pollyanna! — Vera Mont

:up:

I am bewildered that we can not achieve "the better" through reasoning. I think we are proving those of the Enlighten[ment] right, that with reason we can do better. — Athena

Our intelligent machine descendants are emerging now from the womb of human reason. They will be either an extinction event or the apotheosis of human civilization – IMO, a profound improvement either way on the global status quo / human condition. :victory:

:100:
Why intelligent, well-intentioned people delude themselves with panglossian nostagias escapes me. Coping mechanisms?

Coping mechanisms? — 180 Proof

The optimism bias refers to our tendency to overestimate our likelihood of experiencing positive events and underestimate our likelihood of experiencing negative events.

This has been, in many situations, an important survival mechanism.
I remember a short story we read in GR5, of which I don't recall the title, but it was about a boy who had fallen through ice on a pond and his little brother went for help. The moral was: "Courage consists of holding on one minute longer." Optimism bias has enabled people to do that in many situations.
(The same year, we read a story about a Spartan boy who let his belly get chewed open by a little fox rather than break ranks on parade. At the time, I thought it was just stupid and dead wrong, but now I realize it was about the power of totalitarian zealotry.)
They didn't have a lot of stories about girls back then in Canadian schoolbooks, which, given the subject matter, is just as well. I have - very much later - learned that girls figured more prominently in Russian and Chinese schoolbooks of the same period. That nominal egalitarianism didn't manifest in their cultures, while North American women did fight for and win civil rights. I don't know whether there is a lesson in there, or what it might be.

I only ever watched a handful of B5 episodes back in the day, maybe 1-2 each season; all I remember is being bored by the characters, derivative space operatic metaplot and the cheezy CGI. From what I've read in recent yeara I don't feel I'd missed much. — 180 Proof

I have watched all 5 series at least 6 times. I will probably watch it again.
Many individual episodes deal with human dilemmas that are very relevant to cultural issues today.

Staying with space operas, what do you think of the portrayals of "human dilemmas" in Firefly (and/or the Serenity movie) or The Expanse (s1-3)?

(Btw, I gave up on nBSG after the first 2½ seasons and never watched more than online preview trailers for any Star Trek series since the last few years of DS9. Same with Stargate & Star Wars-related tv shows despite my nephews' best efforts!)

Staying with space operas, what do you think of the portrayals of "human dilemmas" in Firefly (or Serenity) or The Expanse? — 180 Proof

I'm not a sci fi guy, but I enjoyed Firefly/Serenity. I admired the imaginative literary ambition of the original Trek (in small doses) but later Trek seemed a bit contrived and mechanical for my taste. I remember hearing about Next Gen in 1987 and saying (quite idiotically it turns out), 'This will never catch on, Trek was an unrepeatable one off!'